Is Calvinism Just?

[Kenny'sID]

Calvinism is 100% Biblical. It is Biblical doctrine taught by Christ and His Apostles. Now think on that. More correctly, Calvinism draws the truth out of the Scriptures (exegesis) and presents a Biblically sound systematic theology.

Problem there is you gave me nothing to "think on". Give me something to reply to, some proof of the claim, and lets see if it's viable.

Arminianism? That is the doctrine that puts man as choosing God. Makes God a beggar to human whim.

I didn't mentioned Arminianism anywhere on this thread, so I agree

"Arminianism?"

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Calvinism is 100% Biblical. It is Biblical doctrine taught by Christ and His Apostles. Now think on that. More correctly, Calvinism draws the truth out of the Scriptures (exegesis) and presents a Biblically sound systematic theology.

Read the first two chapters of Romans. Teaching there speaks against calvinism.

 

[redleghunter]

Read the first two chapters of Romans. Teaching there speaks against calvinism.

Actually the first three chapters speak of the depravity of mankind.

 

[Albion]

You misunderstood me. Calvinists don’t use the words “God is unjust” but say something nebulous to the charge all the while accepting a description of God that everyone else knows is unjust and therefore untrue.

Quite obviously, not everyone thinks that God is unjust to choose his Elect as indicated in Scripture..

I accept that you think something about it is unjust, but you are not posting here just to tell us that.

 

[royal priest]

And? What difference does that make?

You said God chose Abraham in response to his obedience. That is false. Rather, God chooses us in spite of our disobedience.

 

[rnmomof7]

Well let’s look at the Bible if we want to learn his just ways. He looks into the books of the deeds of a life including the Lambs book of life. That’s the criteria he says he uses.

What is that criteria ? Sinlessness is the criteria for Christ.. Can anything unclean enter heaven?

 

[rnmomof7]

Is the reprobate capable of repentance?

Does the reprobate DESIRE to repent?

 

[royal priest]

Calvinism presents a theology of God where He has to be unjust. What they teach God does shows God to be unjust.

Calvinism admits the reality that God has supreme control over every atom He has created. And that man can do absolutely nothing apart from God. We do as God has determined us to do. The only argument which the Bible makes against this idea is the hypothetical one which Paul presents in Romans 9, "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

 

[rnmomof7]

Calvinism admits the reality that God has supreme control over every atom He has created. And that man can do absolutely nothing apart from God. We do as God has determined us to do. The only argument which the Bible makes against this idea is the hypothetical one which Paul presents in Romans 9, "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

From the beginning man has wanted to be his own god.. thus the fall

 

[royal priest]

From the beginning man has wanted to be his own god.. thus the fall

Yes
And how much more now after the fall. We actually believe that we are the masters of our lives and the captains of our own ships.

 

[Albion]

Well let’s look at the Bible if we want to learn his just ways. He looks into the books of the deeds of a life including the Lambs book of life. That’s the criteria he says he uses.

So that would mean those who are saved are saved entirely on account of their good deeds. (!)

Generally speaking, the division between Christians is between the Faith Alone churches and the Faith plus Deeds churches.

And then there are Unitarians.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Actually the first three chapters speak of the depravity of mankind.

So that would mean those who are saved are saved entirely on account of their good deeds. (!)

Generally speaking, the division between Christians is between the Faith Alone churches and the Faith plus Deeds churches.

And then there are Unitarians.

Then there are some walk with God churches that require faith and obedience.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So that would mean those who are saved are saved entirely on account of their good deeds. (!)
.

You know, you might not like there verse in Romans but Paul wrote it. He wrote it more than once. We will stand before the Judgement seat of Christ to give an account for the deeds done in the body. The tricky part is God is looking for obedience to his commands to us. He is not looking to be impressed by us. If we work to gain his love, we have failed. That comes with no works. IF we work to gain something in the sweet by and by, that is done without love but self interest and fails. There are many ways to do works that fail to please him and in fact, disgust him.

There is, however, obeying the Holy Spirit in one's life which is definately a work (anyone who did this know this) but done out of love not expecting to gain anything. This is the work we are called to do. THose who do so love Him already and are his already. Those who focus on Heaven for their own future alone, will fail to do both. One can love the Gift in the beginning but if one does not progress to loving the Giver, one will have failed in this life and that Judgement will not be pleasant.

 

[redleghunter]

Then there are some walk with God churches that require faith and obedience.

It’s faith, love and obedience. 1 John 5 makes it clear that all three are what a Christian exhibits.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Calvinism admits the reality that God has supreme control over every atom He has created. And that man can do absolutely nothing apart from God. We do as God has determined us to do. The only argument which the Bible makes against this idea is the hypothetical one which Paul presents in Romans 9, "But indeed, O man, who are you to reply against God? Will the thing formed say to him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” Does not the potter have power over the clay, from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

Ah a Calvinist into the frey. (I knew that at the second word you wrote. For Calvinists, their doctrine is it and they merely "admit" it to be so without examining or letting it be examined.)

God has created the world such that he does not need to exercise control over every atom. ANyone who has studied science knows this. Even reproduction goes along nicely on its own without a miracel intervention from Him.

The statment that man can do nothing apart from GOd means God is the reason for all the evil in the world since men do evil and according to you, God is not apart from their doing so. So God in involved in all the evil we see. You have also a Biblical problem with that. When the atoms of the water God sovereignly controlled threatened to overturn Jesus' boat, why did Jesus rebuke them?

Why does the BIble say that men did what never had occured to God if we do only as God has determined? Doesn't God talk to himself so He knows what he has decided we will do? By the way, are you ever angry at anyone? YOu shouldn't ever be angry at anything anyone does cause your god determined them to do that to you. YOu are being angry at your view of GOd. I bring this up because no one lives with your above stated position. No one. It does not fit real life as we know it.

SO next time you are angry at any man, quote to yourself the above verse in Romans and see if that quiets you down. Btw, I was ordainged to write these things to you according to you.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It’s faith, love and obedience. 1 John 5 makes it clear that all three are what a Christian exhibits.

That is true but Calvinism makes it an optional extra. YOu can preach we ought to tell your blue in the fact but a Calvinist audience believers they are going to Heaven no matter what so it is only an extra if they want. ANd because it is sometimes very uncomfortable, they won't want, believe me. Obeying God is expensive in this life. It will cost a man sometimes everything he values.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What is that criteria ? Sinlessness is the criteria for Christ.. Can anything unclean enter heaven?

Can you please provide the scripture where the standard of sinlessness is required. It isn't that I doubt your answer but I would like to know what the basis for this is. If you were the poster "red" I would ask for data but you are not. He required data from others.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Actually the first three chapters speak of the depravity of mankind.

Can you please give us the particular passages. The verses I read say that they actually KNEW God but did not acknowledge him as such. SO that blows total depravity out of the water. They knew God and GOd did not have to change their hearts for them to know this. But they themselves decided, apparently on their own, to reject him. Paul does not say that God neglected to work on their hearts. What he does say is God actually gave them over to their own passions. That GOd did do.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Quite obviously, not everyone thinks that God is unjust to choose his Elect as indicated in Scripture..

Of course not. Even the apostles had to fight with wrong theology.

I accept that you think something about it is unjust, but you are not posting here just to tell us that.

Of course I am posting here to tell you that and why. That is the OP. But I have a question. IF you did not accept that I think something is unjust, like the god of Calvin, what would that look like? I mean people think they graciously write that they accept what someone else believes but really, what other choice is there?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You said God chose Abraham in response to his obedience. That is false. Rather, God chooses us in spite of our disobedience.

No, God called Abraham and he obeyed. If he hadn't obeyed he still would have been called to be chosen. Many are called and some refuse. To receive the promise he had to obey. Being called is not the end of the story.