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We ALWAYS choose, one way or the other. Why do you insist Calvin teaches we can't choose either way?
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Is Calvinism Just?
- Thread starter BNR32FAN
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The concept of casual determinism is no new debate. Fate. A predetermined life in which we have no choice.
Is our life dictated solely by extrinsic motivation? The argument whether or not biological, physiological and religious constraint dictates our actions has been kicked back and forth on the metaphysical field between supporters and detractors for centuries with cheerleaders leaping up and down on both sidelines. What the unbelieving heart professes is of no consequence to me with the exception of when Christians attempt to inject it into scripture. This relates therefore to the ability of individuals to choose Gods grace, or reject Him.
Did Adam have the ability to choose? Did Adam have the capacity and information necessary to make an informed choice on obeying God’s command, “Do not eat”… Capacity, perhaps. Information, no. Prior to consumption of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, there was no knowledge of good and evil. What Adam and Eve had was an edict, a command with no explanation other than “you will die,” a concept he had no reference for. The fact is he was not then struck down, that did not occur until the age of 930.
Free will, Free agency. Does the free agent exercise free will? Does the agent have a specific faculty of will? Does causal determinism strictly exclude free will, or does it allow for partial free will?
This is relative as it pertains to, “how one is saved?” The freedom to choose to act or not is not determined by the ability nor the casual inability to act. The will is fulfilled by the determination to act. We are addressing the will, not the action. The inability to walk does not negate the determination to do so. We are discussing a relationship with God, not the decision to walk the dog or not, regardless of being incapacitated physically or prevented by external factors inhibiting physical action. We do not “wrestle against flesh and blood”. We are discussing FAITH. ‘If a man looks upon a woman with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart’.
Free agents have the faculties of intellect and will. The intellect/rational faculty cognates, as a result the intellect presents various options to the will as to a course of action. If Adam had the capacity to choose adherence to Gods edict, he certainly had the option to choose disobedience. Some may argue from a position that free will and free agency are separate and independent states, they are nondetachable. The agent responds and makes a decision based on the best information available, that decision within itself is an act of will. Some may assert a completely neutral heart as a prerequisite for making any decision of will. If indifference, lack of preference or bias are required attributes for the exercise of free will, human nature is replete with them.
God and Adam spent time walking in the garden. After an indeterminate amount of time as Adam had the task of giving names to all the animals, God must have noticed in Adam a pensive demeanor and recognized the loneliness for ones kind. “It is not good for man to be alone”. Adam must have in his heart and mind, in his bones, so to speak, felt something missing. These internal reflections even without the benefit of any definitive concept of what a woman, a helper, a human friend would be like, were affecting his happiness even in the presence of the Almighty.
It is interesting to note here that God, for His own good pleasure, desired the companionship of man. Apparently man exhibited an innate predisposition for human companionship as well. We see that inherent in the nature of man, despite the walks in a perfect garden and his personal relationship with God, Adam had the desire for fellowship with his “kind”.
The command was given to Adam not to eat from the tree. The serpent targeted Eve. Was Adams choice to disobey God, an act of free will, or was it imprinted in his genome? Is God simply a puppet master? Of course not. Was the cause of his disobedience an overwhelming desire to please this magnificently enthralling creature an unavoidable response? (This was Eve, personally created by the Lord God, not some toad spewing primordial muck through pursed toad lips, wearily dragging herself out of ancient slime, envisioning a future in which she would evolve into a beautiful princess worthy of such a man.) Or, was he simply interested in the fruit itself? Was it doubt, as to whether any harsh or lasting consequences would be forthcoming? Did he choose lovely Eve and some forbidden fruit in the perfect garden setting, or did he have no choice at all? No autonomy.
Those who assert the principal of causal determinism, or Calvinism have no option but must proclaim his innocence for he was simply a small twig caught in the cascading currents of time. If so, why judge him harshly, or at all. Adam could have done no differently. He was predestined to fail. Not so. He was built with the ability to choose, and the Maker knew only one person would ever live a faultless life. If he was indeed innocent, why was he punished? Perhaps it really just a setup? A setup essential for the perfecting of the saints. The Lamb being slain before the foundations of the earth. Was it an essential process for the sanctification of the saints? Given that, “He (Christ) was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.” 1 Peter, 1:20 And, “The lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth.” God foresaw the plot of Satan and made provision for it. The only other option is to believe that Satan outfoxed God. Didn’t happen.
Abraham was the father of a nation and many of his progeny are/were lost. Adam is the father of humankind. Is he culpable, responsible for the fallen condition of all men? Scripture says he is, yet I contend he was simply the man on the spot, and any man would have transgressed on some issue. Failed to dot an i. If before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he was held accountable for breaking a law, was this action the resulting banishment, cursed earth, pain in childbirth a precursor to the Law? Prior to the law there was no breaking of the law, yet men were judged and destroyed. What it gets down to is this, Do we have a choice? Apparently, Yes.
We find that in the centuries prior to the law some men pleased God. They had the desire to know, believe and serve God without the need for written rules. We find that in Romans some still may. They have a law within themselves. Romans, 2:14
The idea that free agency and free will, provide within themselves adequate separation of purpose to constitute different entities is an exercise in a futile and never ending debate in semantics. Free will does not exist without the agent, and the agent, made in the image of God, cannot exist without free will. He is reduced to life as a zombie android. A cheap, plastic wind up toy, bouncing off the interior walls of a puppet masters cardboard box as the wagon rattles along.
God cannot lie, His record states He chose to create in His image, man with free agency. The directive, “Do not eat this fruit” presupposes Adam has the option of eating it. Gods will is evidenced in His decision to create man despite the foreknowledge that Adam would fail. Adam made a choice. Our God is the driving constant in the lives of His children, yet who among us has not made poor choices?
The call has gone out. Attendance is free. Many have heard the call. The acceptable response is to accept. I believe we have a choice, to embrace grace. To allow the Spirit of God to graft us onto the root, the foundation of our faith that we may produce His fruit. “That He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” Romans 9:23
If God is not willing that any should perish, then apparently He is not exerting His will over his creation.
He is compelling.
He is assisting.
He is calling.
He is loving, supporting.
He has offered Himself as a bridge, giving His Son.
But, He is not forcing.
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
He owns the destination. He determined the course. Paved the way, has first aid stations everywhere you would possibly need one. He paid the entry fee. Will carry you when you fall, Shield you from attack and open escape route, encourage, support, comfort,, defend love and never leave you. You must believe and have faith to show up. Trust Him, repent, turn from self control and hand over the reins.
Casual determinism is a philosophy the worlds scholars have kicked back and forth for centuries and with advances in science it will gain in popularity. “It’s not my fault, It’s just the way I’m wired.” Scripture tells us there will be no excuse. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. Romans, 1:20
We can kick predestination around till Christ returns and those who believe we have no free will and chose God will enter right along with those who choose to love serve and thank Christ for His overwhelming support and work in our hearts will be there right alongside them,. Because we all make that choice every day by the grace of God.
Is our life dictated solely by extrinsic motivation? The argument whether or not biological, physiological and religious constraint dictates our actions has been kicked back and forth on the metaphysical field between supporters and detractors for centuries with cheerleaders leaping up and down on both sidelines. What the unbelieving heart professes is of no consequence to me with the exception of when Christians attempt to inject it into scripture. This relates therefore to the ability of individuals to choose Gods grace, or reject Him.
Did Adam have the ability to choose? Did Adam have the capacity and information necessary to make an informed choice on obeying God’s command, “Do not eat”… Capacity, perhaps. Information, no. Prior to consumption of the fruit from the tree of knowledge, there was no knowledge of good and evil. What Adam and Eve had was an edict, a command with no explanation other than “you will die,” a concept he had no reference for. The fact is he was not then struck down, that did not occur until the age of 930.
Free will, Free agency. Does the free agent exercise free will? Does the agent have a specific faculty of will? Does causal determinism strictly exclude free will, or does it allow for partial free will?
This is relative as it pertains to, “how one is saved?” The freedom to choose to act or not is not determined by the ability nor the casual inability to act. The will is fulfilled by the determination to act. We are addressing the will, not the action. The inability to walk does not negate the determination to do so. We are discussing a relationship with God, not the decision to walk the dog or not, regardless of being incapacitated physically or prevented by external factors inhibiting physical action. We do not “wrestle against flesh and blood”. We are discussing FAITH. ‘If a man looks upon a woman with lust, he has committed adultery in his heart’.
Free agents have the faculties of intellect and will. The intellect/rational faculty cognates, as a result the intellect presents various options to the will as to a course of action. If Adam had the capacity to choose adherence to Gods edict, he certainly had the option to choose disobedience. Some may argue from a position that free will and free agency are separate and independent states, they are nondetachable. The agent responds and makes a decision based on the best information available, that decision within itself is an act of will. Some may assert a completely neutral heart as a prerequisite for making any decision of will. If indifference, lack of preference or bias are required attributes for the exercise of free will, human nature is replete with them.
God and Adam spent time walking in the garden. After an indeterminate amount of time as Adam had the task of giving names to all the animals, God must have noticed in Adam a pensive demeanor and recognized the loneliness for ones kind. “It is not good for man to be alone”. Adam must have in his heart and mind, in his bones, so to speak, felt something missing. These internal reflections even without the benefit of any definitive concept of what a woman, a helper, a human friend would be like, were affecting his happiness even in the presence of the Almighty.
It is interesting to note here that God, for His own good pleasure, desired the companionship of man. Apparently man exhibited an innate predisposition for human companionship as well. We see that inherent in the nature of man, despite the walks in a perfect garden and his personal relationship with God, Adam had the desire for fellowship with his “kind”.
The command was given to Adam not to eat from the tree. The serpent targeted Eve. Was Adams choice to disobey God, an act of free will, or was it imprinted in his genome? Is God simply a puppet master? Of course not. Was the cause of his disobedience an overwhelming desire to please this magnificently enthralling creature an unavoidable response? (This was Eve, personally created by the Lord God, not some toad spewing primordial muck through pursed toad lips, wearily dragging herself out of ancient slime, envisioning a future in which she would evolve into a beautiful princess worthy of such a man.) Or, was he simply interested in the fruit itself? Was it doubt, as to whether any harsh or lasting consequences would be forthcoming? Did he choose lovely Eve and some forbidden fruit in the perfect garden setting, or did he have no choice at all? No autonomy.
Those who assert the principal of causal determinism, or Calvinism have no option but must proclaim his innocence for he was simply a small twig caught in the cascading currents of time. If so, why judge him harshly, or at all. Adam could have done no differently. He was predestined to fail. Not so. He was built with the ability to choose, and the Maker knew only one person would ever live a faultless life. If he was indeed innocent, why was he punished? Perhaps it really just a setup? A setup essential for the perfecting of the saints. The Lamb being slain before the foundations of the earth. Was it an essential process for the sanctification of the saints? Given that, “He (Christ) was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.” 1 Peter, 1:20 And, “The lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth.” God foresaw the plot of Satan and made provision for it. The only other option is to believe that Satan outfoxed God. Didn’t happen.
Abraham was the father of a nation and many of his progeny are/were lost. Adam is the father of humankind. Is he culpable, responsible for the fallen condition of all men? Scripture says he is, yet I contend he was simply the man on the spot, and any man would have transgressed on some issue. Failed to dot an i. If before eating of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he was held accountable for breaking a law, was this action the resulting banishment, cursed earth, pain in childbirth a precursor to the Law? Prior to the law there was no breaking of the law, yet men were judged and destroyed. What it gets down to is this, Do we have a choice? Apparently, Yes.
We find that in the centuries prior to the law some men pleased God. They had the desire to know, believe and serve God without the need for written rules. We find that in Romans some still may. They have a law within themselves. Romans, 2:14
The idea that free agency and free will, provide within themselves adequate separation of purpose to constitute different entities is an exercise in a futile and never ending debate in semantics. Free will does not exist without the agent, and the agent, made in the image of God, cannot exist without free will. He is reduced to life as a zombie android. A cheap, plastic wind up toy, bouncing off the interior walls of a puppet masters cardboard box as the wagon rattles along.
God cannot lie, His record states He chose to create in His image, man with free agency. The directive, “Do not eat this fruit” presupposes Adam has the option of eating it. Gods will is evidenced in His decision to create man despite the foreknowledge that Adam would fail. Adam made a choice. Our God is the driving constant in the lives of His children, yet who among us has not made poor choices?
The call has gone out. Attendance is free. Many have heard the call. The acceptable response is to accept. I believe we have a choice, to embrace grace. To allow the Spirit of God to graft us onto the root, the foundation of our faith that we may produce His fruit. “That He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.” Romans 9:23
If God is not willing that any should perish, then apparently He is not exerting His will over his creation.
He is compelling.
He is assisting.
He is calling.
He is loving, supporting.
He has offered Himself as a bridge, giving His Son.
But, He is not forcing.
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
He owns the destination. He determined the course. Paved the way, has first aid stations everywhere you would possibly need one. He paid the entry fee. Will carry you when you fall, Shield you from attack and open escape route, encourage, support, comfort,, defend love and never leave you. You must believe and have faith to show up. Trust Him, repent, turn from self control and hand over the reins.
Casual determinism is a philosophy the worlds scholars have kicked back and forth for centuries and with advances in science it will gain in popularity. “It’s not my fault, It’s just the way I’m wired.” Scripture tells us there will be no excuse. “For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse. Romans, 1:20
We can kick predestination around till Christ returns and those who believe we have no free will and chose God will enter right along with those who choose to love serve and thank Christ for His overwhelming support and work in our hearts will be there right alongside them,. Because we all make that choice every day by the grace of God.
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- Dec 5, 2019
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Are we made in God’s image?
Is it possible to be made in the image of God yet possess no capacity to resolve independently our direction? No autonomy? No self determination?
What did Christ mean when He stated, “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;” John 10:34
Does God look like us? God is a spirit. John, 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and in truth.”
Phil, 2:7… Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited. Instead he emptied himself by assuming the form of a servant, taking on the likeness of humanity. And when he had come as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death even to death on a cross.
Are we emotionally alike? It would appear so to a large degree. Following are listed emotions attributed to God which He exhibited in scripture; Patience, wept, understanding, laughter, pleasure, giving, kind, jealous, grief, regret, vengeful, angry, wrathful, rejoicing, compassion, love, forgiveness, mercy, grace.
Are we alike in that we are autonomous? He is God, eternal. We at this time, are temporal. Yet we have an innate ability for self governance. It is what separates us from the beast, to defer pleasure, to set goals for a future desired purpose. To control our desires, reason and focus our will. So yes, we share this attribute in a limited fashion. God’s goal was infinitely more impressive with His undertaking the creation of the physical universe. Then, as if not enough, to create humankind in His image, foreseeing the risk of instilling a predisposition for independent thinking, and, providing a plan of retrieval and restoration, prior to the event. We will receive our spiritual body when our adoption is finalized. Rom, 8:23 There is a plethora of scripture on self control and discipline.
2 Tim, 1:7 For God didn’t give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and self control. Those without self control are said to be, “lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.” 2 Tim, 3:3. A few others. Tit, 1:8, Gal, 5:23, 1 Peter, 4:7, 1 Peter 5:8, 2 peter, 1:6.
Self control means exactly that. Control yourself.
Gen, 2:7 And God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Man, in his self gratification, motivated by desire, then reasoned Eve and some fruit, in a Garden unlike any, was a sufficiently attractive enough reward to compensate for any repercussions stemming from the disobedience of one simple command. God Knew. He is the beginning. He is the end. He planned for every contingency.
We are to control our flesh. “Dearly beloved, I beseech you as pilgrims and strangers, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.” 1 Peter 2:11
We see above some ways in which we are “made in His image,” or characteristically resemble Him. This is not intended as a comprehensive list,. God embodies attributes which are exclusively His.
Many of us here know faith in God’s grace is our hope. The gospel is simple.
We have seen that if we choose a viewpoint on specific topics, we can find scripture that will appear to support it,. Which is why we have different perspectives. This is likely why Peter felt compelled to state of Paul, “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” 2, Peter 3:16
While I do not agree with Calvin’s conclusion in support of the worldly view in regard to casual determinism, I make no final judgment that any who like tulips will be destroyed, nor those who worship on Saturday Tuesday or every day, those who believe the gifts of the Spirit remain yet, water baptism, Sprinkle or immerse…? WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST.
Is this the “straining at gnats and swallowing a camel,” Christ spoke of? We live now as did Lot surrounded by the unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness, gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless thoughts and behaviors? Some even in the churches we attend. Who hasn’t exhibited some of these characteristics in our past, or seen and tolerated them in other “believers”?
When Christ went to hell;
Eph, 4:9; Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Acts, 4:29; Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
1 Peter, 3:19; By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
What was the point?
If the Lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth and men are saved prior to birth, chosen, predestined, why the sacrifice? Why be born? Why even create a physical universe? Why not skip the drama of the human experience and make them like the faithful angels in heaven at the inception.
In my opinion, TULIP = Once saved always saved, but it goes beyond that. All that are going to be saved are in essence saved before they are born. No others have a “snowballs chance.”
It needed/needs to play out. Why?
Because we must choose to believe and trust in God’s love and provision and of our own volition, follow His lead.
Romans, 1:28, And because they did not think it worthwhile to acknowledge God, God delivered them over to a corrupt mind so that they do what is not right. This intellectual revolt against what they knew resulted in their corruption. Some make the wrong choice. Verse 20. For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. God makes it very clear, His judgment is just. The natural world speaks of God. There will be no excuse.
Someone recently stated, that the only incidence spoken of in the bible concerning the exercise of free will was in regard to Adam just before he fell. It is not.
Angels in heaven were instilled with an independent will upon their creation. And many exercised that freedom of choice to rebel. They will also, at the appointed time be brought to the resolution of acting on their own volition, against the One God.We are not fooled, “What a man plants, he will harvest.”
Is Ezekeil, 28:12 speaking of Satan here? Who else can it be? We know he chose himself over God.
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’
This ability to Chose or reject God is crucial and at the very core of what is means to be human. It is the way God does things, then and now, with angels and men. The capacity to chose a relationship with Him in an intentional, and deliberately conformed, obedient fashion is the fulfillment of human purpose and existence. We are born of the earth, dust, and are to, “… Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who is working in you both to will and to work according to his good purpose. Phil, 2:12 Let His purpose be our purpose. This is our work, to follow Christ in the Spirit of God and not ourselves. Mark, 8:34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. God’s got it covered.
We are not working our way to heaven. This is a reasoning, an understanding, communion. “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will become like wool.” Isaiah, 1:18 God is working in us for His purpose. We are believing, we have faith in His work within us. We do not exert our will over His, We choose to walk after His Spirit and thank Him daily for His gift. Why do we thank God? Because we understand His work, His Grace freely offered. “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you as My priests.” Hosea, 4:6
And when we have fought the good fight, finished the course and kept the faith,. 2 Tim, 4:7 We will be like the angels in heaven. Those who remain and choose God.
This human boot camp was necessary because we have a part to play, a volitional election, Voting rights. How can anyone know God and not love Him? He is the embodiment of love, truth, honor, justice, purity, love, commendable, moral excellence and praiseworthy. Phil, 4:8 He’s pretty awesome too. Yet some will be lost, not because in an arbitrary and capricious manner God picks on some. We make choices. God’s prescient aptitude for knowing the choices people will make, does not equate with forcing some to believe and others not to.
God’s righteous judgment
Acts 10:34-35 Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
John,5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Hear, believe.
Rev, 20:12 … Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The book of life was opened.
And what had those whose name was found in it done?
They believed, put their faith in Christ and followed His directive.
1 John, 5:4 “Because everyone who has been born of God conquers the world. This is the victory that has conquered the world: our faith. Who is the one who conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Job, 24:14 Serve the Lord! And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.
Rev, 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
Isa, 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
Eze, 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live. “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your soul.” 1 Peter, 1:9
Is it possible to be made in the image of God yet possess no capacity to resolve independently our direction? No autonomy? No self determination?
What did Christ mean when He stated, “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;” John 10:34
Does God look like us? God is a spirit. John, 4:24 “God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in Spirit and in truth.”
Phil, 2:7… Who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be exploited. Instead he emptied himself by assuming the form of a servant, taking on the likeness of humanity. And when he had come as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death even to death on a cross.
Are we emotionally alike? It would appear so to a large degree. Following are listed emotions attributed to God which He exhibited in scripture; Patience, wept, understanding, laughter, pleasure, giving, kind, jealous, grief, regret, vengeful, angry, wrathful, rejoicing, compassion, love, forgiveness, mercy, grace.
Are we alike in that we are autonomous? He is God, eternal. We at this time, are temporal. Yet we have an innate ability for self governance. It is what separates us from the beast, to defer pleasure, to set goals for a future desired purpose. To control our desires, reason and focus our will. So yes, we share this attribute in a limited fashion. God’s goal was infinitely more impressive with His undertaking the creation of the physical universe. Then, as if not enough, to create humankind in His image, foreseeing the risk of instilling a predisposition for independent thinking, and, providing a plan of retrieval and restoration, prior to the event. We will receive our spiritual body when our adoption is finalized. Rom, 8:23 There is a plethora of scripture on self control and discipline.
2 Tim, 1:7 For God didn’t give us a spirit of fear, but of power, love and self control. Those without self control are said to be, “lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God.” 2 Tim, 3:3. A few others. Tit, 1:8, Gal, 5:23, 1 Peter, 4:7, 1 Peter 5:8, 2 peter, 1:6.
Self control means exactly that. Control yourself.
Gen, 2:7 And God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. Man, in his self gratification, motivated by desire, then reasoned Eve and some fruit, in a Garden unlike any, was a sufficiently attractive enough reward to compensate for any repercussions stemming from the disobedience of one simple command. God Knew. He is the beginning. He is the end. He planned for every contingency.
We are to control our flesh. “Dearly beloved, I beseech you as pilgrims and strangers, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul.” 1 Peter 2:11
We see above some ways in which we are “made in His image,” or characteristically resemble Him. This is not intended as a comprehensive list,. God embodies attributes which are exclusively His.
Many of us here know faith in God’s grace is our hope. The gospel is simple.
We have seen that if we choose a viewpoint on specific topics, we can find scripture that will appear to support it,. Which is why we have different perspectives. This is likely why Peter felt compelled to state of Paul, “As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” 2, Peter 3:16
While I do not agree with Calvin’s conclusion in support of the worldly view in regard to casual determinism, I make no final judgment that any who like tulips will be destroyed, nor those who worship on Saturday Tuesday or every day, those who believe the gifts of the Spirit remain yet, water baptism, Sprinkle or immerse…? WE ARE THE BODY OF CHRIST.
Is this the “straining at gnats and swallowing a camel,” Christ spoke of? We live now as did Lot surrounded by the unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice, envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness, gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless thoughts and behaviors? Some even in the churches we attend. Who hasn’t exhibited some of these characteristics in our past, or seen and tolerated them in other “believers”?
When Christ went to hell;
Eph, 4:9; Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
Acts, 4:29; Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
1 Peter, 3:19; By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
What was the point?
If the Lamb was slain before the foundations of the earth and men are saved prior to birth, chosen, predestined, why the sacrifice? Why be born? Why even create a physical universe? Why not skip the drama of the human experience and make them like the faithful angels in heaven at the inception.
In my opinion, TULIP = Once saved always saved, but it goes beyond that. All that are going to be saved are in essence saved before they are born. No others have a “snowballs chance.”
It needed/needs to play out. Why?
Because we must choose to believe and trust in God’s love and provision and of our own volition, follow His lead.
Romans, 1:28, And because they did not think it worthwhile to acknowledge God, God delivered them over to a corrupt mind so that they do what is not right. This intellectual revolt against what they knew resulted in their corruption. Some make the wrong choice. Verse 20. For his invisible attributes, that is, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what he has made. God makes it very clear, His judgment is just. The natural world speaks of God. There will be no excuse.
Someone recently stated, that the only incidence spoken of in the bible concerning the exercise of free will was in regard to Adam just before he fell. It is not.
Angels in heaven were instilled with an independent will upon their creation. And many exercised that freedom of choice to rebel. They will also, at the appointed time be brought to the resolution of acting on their own volition, against the One God.We are not fooled, “What a man plants, he will harvest.”
Is Ezekeil, 28:12 speaking of Satan here? Who else can it be? We know he chose himself over God.
“‘You were the seal of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
carnelian, chrysolite and emerald,
topaz, onyx and jasper,
lapis lazuli, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
16 Through your widespread trade
you were filled with violence,
and you sinned.
So I drove you in disgrace from the mount of God,
and I expelled you, guardian cherub,
from among the fiery stones.
17 Your heart became proud
on account of your beauty,
and you corrupted your wisdom
because of your splendor.
So I threw you to the earth;
I made a spectacle of you before kings.
18 By your many sins and dishonest trade
you have desecrated your sanctuaries.
So I made a fire come out from you,
and it consumed you,
and I reduced you to ashes on the ground
in the sight of all who were watching.
19 All the nations who knew you
are appalled at you;
you have come to a horrible end
and will be no more.’
This ability to Chose or reject God is crucial and at the very core of what is means to be human. It is the way God does things, then and now, with angels and men. The capacity to chose a relationship with Him in an intentional, and deliberately conformed, obedient fashion is the fulfillment of human purpose and existence. We are born of the earth, dust, and are to, “… Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God who is working in you both to will and to work according to his good purpose. Phil, 2:12 Let His purpose be our purpose. This is our work, to follow Christ in the Spirit of God and not ourselves. Mark, 8:34 When He had called the people to Himself, with His disciples also, He said to them, “Whoever desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me. God’s got it covered.
We are not working our way to heaven. This is a reasoning, an understanding, communion. “Come now, let us reason together,” says the LORD. Though your sins are like scarlet, they will be as white as snow; though they are as red as crimson, they will become like wool.” Isaiah, 1:18 God is working in us for His purpose. We are believing, we have faith in His work within us. We do not exert our will over His, We choose to walk after His Spirit and thank Him daily for His gift. Why do we thank God? Because we understand His work, His Grace freely offered. “My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge. Because you have rejected knowledge, I will also reject you as My priests.” Hosea, 4:6
And when we have fought the good fight, finished the course and kept the faith,. 2 Tim, 4:7 We will be like the angels in heaven. Those who remain and choose God.
This human boot camp was necessary because we have a part to play, a volitional election, Voting rights. How can anyone know God and not love Him? He is the embodiment of love, truth, honor, justice, purity, love, commendable, moral excellence and praiseworthy. Phil, 4:8 He’s pretty awesome too. Yet some will be lost, not because in an arbitrary and capricious manner God picks on some. We make choices. God’s prescient aptitude for knowing the choices people will make, does not equate with forcing some to believe and others not to.
God’s righteous judgment
Acts 10:34-35 Opening his mouth, Peter said: “I most certainly understand now that God is not one to show partiality, but in every nation the man who fears Him and does what is right is welcome to Him.
John,5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life. Hear, believe.
Rev, 20:12 … Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
The book of life was opened.
And what had those whose name was found in it done?
They believed, put their faith in Christ and followed His directive.
1 John, 5:4 “Because everyone who has been born of God conquers the world. This is the victory that has conquered the world: our faith. Who is the one who conquers the world but the one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Job, 24:14 Serve the Lord! And if it seems evil to you to serve the Lord, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve.
Rev, 3:20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with that person, and they with me.
Isa, 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way, And the unrighteous man his thoughts; Let him return to the Lord, And He will have mercy on him; And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.
Eze, 18:30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways,” says the Lord God. “Repent, and turn from all your transgressions, so that iniquity will not be your ruin. Cast away from you all the transgressions which you have committed, and get yourselves a new heart and a new spirit. For why should you die, O house of Israel? For I have no pleasure in the death of one who dies,” says the Lord God. “Therefore turn and live. “Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your soul.” 1 Peter, 1:9
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Dorothy Mae
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Why blame God at all? It makes him responsible and therefore unjust. Why not merely say people make different decisions.
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The deception of Calvinism “… Therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live; that you may love the Lord your God, that you may obey His voice, and that you may cling to Him, for He is your life… ” Choose Life, contrary to Calvin’s assertion.
Philosophers have attempted to reconcile casual determinism with “Free Will,” for centuries. But the first major philosopher to argue convincingly for some indeterminism may have been Aristotle in the first century. How in the 16th century, John Calvin determined he had been gifted a new revelation and we are all Zombies programmed, with no ability to chose, nor reject, the call of God in our severely restricted, wretched, puppet lives. I can not answer. Our existence, he surmised, though we, having been made in the image of God, is doomed to remain a continuous succession of careening off the walls, within the confines of our windup toy box. Did God who having said, “Whatever they can imagine they will accomplish if allowed to work together,” create us with intelligence, then decide we would never be allowed to make our own decisions without someone or something yanking our chains? NO.
Science does not like random events. It seeks to quantify and understand the order of things. But Calvin was no scientist, religion is metaphysical.
Hawking states, “The classical view, put forward by Laplace, was that the future motion of particles was completely determined, if one knew their positions and speeds at one time. This view had to be modified, when Heisenberg put forward his Uncertainty Principle, which said that one could not know both the position, and the speed, accurately. However, it was still possible to predict one combination of position and speed. But even this limited predictability disappeared, when the effects of black holes were taken into account. The loss of particles and information down black holes meant that the particles that came out were random. One could calculate probabilities, but one could not make any definite predictions. Thus, the future of the universe is not completely determined by the laws of science, and its present state, as Laplace thought. God still has a few tricks up his sleeve.” Hawking
Christ came to earth at the time appointed before the earth was formed. “The lamb that was slain before the foundation of the earth.” And also, 1 Peter, 1:20 “He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.” Christ will return at an appointed time.
Let’s address Romans, 9:11: “… for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls.” This scripture has not only been taken out of context, it has been twisted to say something which it clearly does not. What is this chapter about? We’ll start at the top. Verse 1. “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,” Paul is referring to Israel. Not his spiritual brothers, but rather his genetic tree from which Christ also came. (“My kinsmen according to the flesh.”) verse 4 … who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Paul lists his affinity for the nation of Israel and his desire that he himself were accursed if it would then allow the Jewish nation to be redeemed. Christ did that. Galatians 3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.” No other can accomplish this. Paul is simply stating the depth of his love for his nation as a parent does for a child, or as some will desire for dead or dying loved ones.
Verse 6 “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Above, again Paul clarifies further of whom he is speaking. Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation… ” Genesis, 18:9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” The Lord said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” Now, Sarah doubted and tried to help God out by offering her maidservant as a surrogate thus two nations sprang from Abraham. One of the promise, and one of the flesh.
Genesis, 21:12 But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring.”
It is very clear to whom Paul referring to in this chapter. The children of promise. Not those who were to be saved. This is why Paul is saddened by the fact that, while offspring which would become the Jewish nation was promised, salvation was not given to all descendants because they did not believe. Hebrews, 3:19. “So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.” Salvation is and always was by faith, by believing in Gods work and grace. Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. Salvation is individual, not national.
So, who are the chosen in Romans, 9:11? “… for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls.” Who are the elect referred to here? Those Sarah elected to produce through a surrogate because of doubt? No. In this section of scripture it refers to the natural offspring of Abraham through Isaac. There are other scriptures that use the word elect. So, let’s address exactly what is being said when Christ and others refer to the “elect.”
Elect means Chosen. Matthew, 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” What is being said when we read the words, elect, chosen? They are the same word. Elect, Chosen = ἐκλεκτός, ἐκλεκτή, ἐκλεκτόν (ἐκλέγω), picked out, chosen. So God calls many. Those who believe and put their faith in Him are picked out, chosen, elected and become the “Bride of Christ.” Who makes it to the wedding feast? How does one prepare? We will not find the “Kingdom of Heaven” in spaceships, nor by way of inter dimensional travels. We can not work our way there by perfect behavior and adherence to a set of rules. It is by faith. By faith in the work of God through the sacrifice of His Son.
Romans, 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. And yet… “Many are called and few are chosen”. Paul’s statement above is either not true, or someone misinterpreted it. If He justified those individuals He called, how can many be called and few chosen?
Now let’s examine Ephesians chapter 1.
Verse 3 – 5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will… First. He uses the words, us, we, so we know he is speaking of a group. Which group? Clearly to believers about believers. The church at Ephesus. The faithful, believers, the chosen. And, to this group of believers, these faithful, what is the message? Well, that He has blessed us with every spiritual blessing that exists in heaven. “Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God.” So, of necessity we receive a new Flesh and bone body. ( Not to make an issue of this because I have not done enough research on this. Was there blood in His body, because it was poured out for sin upon the cross. (Luke 24:39, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” And here, Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the creature is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.” Leviticus 17:11) 1 Corinthians 15:42. “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.” Next he states that He/God chose believers as a group before the earth was formed. This also makes sense, since as we saw above, Christ was slain before the foundations of the earth and revealed at the chosen time. He says we are to be made holy and blameless through the sacrifice of Christ for His purpose.
God had a plan. Before Satan tempted Eve and the resulting fall, God foresaw this happening and provided the sacrifice.
Verse 6 – 9. “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:”
He made us accepted in the beloved/Christ. We are redeemed by by the sacrifice of Christ and are forgiven, for God, is so rich in grace. He has bestowed on us bountiful grace in his wisdom and prudence. He has told us, He has revealed to us what Abraham and old testament believers did not see. The Christ, His new covenant in keeping with His purpose before creation, for His own pleasure. God was not fooled by Satan. Satan was thwarted and defeated by Christs sacrifice before events began to manifest in the physical universe.
Verses 10 – 12. That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Again, at a preordained time, His plan to gather everything in Christ, both in heaven and on earth, in whom we also, have obtained an eternal inheritance, we according to Gods plan, by His effort to save us is to His praise and glory. The first fruits of mankind that put their faith in Christ.
Verse 13 -14. … In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. After we trust and believe the “Good News,” we are sealed with the promise. What promise? Romans, 8:23 “… And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, to wit, the redemption of our bodies.” The promise of a new eternal, spiritual body when our adoption is finalized. All that is promised to us in heaven. What that consists of,? I don’t know. We are told in, 1 Corinthians, 2:9. Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”
Verses 19 – 23 “… and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all.
What is the greatness of Gods power? How does it benefit us? He accomplished his plan through Christ. When Adam sinned and death entered it was not the defeat of God, but rather the defeat of mankind in a natural body.it initiated a first step in Gods plan for redemption. It was foreseen and inevitable. Not a problem. God knew and had prepared before it began. Christ would take human form, atone by shedding His blood in sacrifice, thereby defeating death physically in a body such as Adam inhabited. “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death, He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.” Hebrews, 2:14 And, Hebrews, 9:16. “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” God’s plan, His desire always was to be in a “Love” relationship with His souls. They could not chose Him if they were incapable of experiencing life. We inhabit a body, with a mind, which allows for true love, not slavish, apish behavior. We are Brothers of the son. “Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46. Yes this is true, yet we must remember, we are brothers to the King of Kings.
Philippians, 2:7 – 8. Christ changed bodies from spiritual to earthly when He came to allow for death. He was eternal before that.“…But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” The elect, the chosen are the church, the Body of Christ as a whole.
Christ is King of Kings, the firstborn from the dead. He is the head. God is in control. Always has been, always will be. The misguided assertion that God is unjust, and man has no free will to respond neither positively nor negatively is not true. It is a deception many have fallen into and it can lead into complacency and sin when one believes they are saved and can never fall.
Revelations, 3:20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!”
1st Peter, 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. Again, speaking to and about the Church. That generation of the Church. Remember the elect is the same word as chosen. eklektos is used 23 times. Elect 16 times. Chosen 7 times.
Philosophers have attempted to reconcile casual determinism with “Free Will,” for centuries. But the first major philosopher to argue convincingly for some indeterminism may have been Aristotle in the first century. How in the 16th century, John Calvin determined he had been gifted a new revelation and we are all Zombies programmed, with no ability to chose, nor reject, the call of God in our severely restricted, wretched, puppet lives. I can not answer. Our existence, he surmised, though we, having been made in the image of God, is doomed to remain a continuous succession of careening off the walls, within the confines of our windup toy box. Did God who having said, “Whatever they can imagine they will accomplish if allowed to work together,” create us with intelligence, then decide we would never be allowed to make our own decisions without someone or something yanking our chains? NO.
Science does not like random events. It seeks to quantify and understand the order of things. But Calvin was no scientist, religion is metaphysical.
Hawking states, “The classical view, put forward by Laplace, was that the future motion of particles was completely determined, if one knew their positions and speeds at one time. This view had to be modified, when Heisenberg put forward his Uncertainty Principle, which said that one could not know both the position, and the speed, accurately. However, it was still possible to predict one combination of position and speed. But even this limited predictability disappeared, when the effects of black holes were taken into account. The loss of particles and information down black holes meant that the particles that came out were random. One could calculate probabilities, but one could not make any definite predictions. Thus, the future of the universe is not completely determined by the laws of science, and its present state, as Laplace thought. God still has a few tricks up his sleeve.” Hawking
Christ came to earth at the time appointed before the earth was formed. “The lamb that was slain before the foundation of the earth.” And also, 1 Peter, 1:20 “He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake.” Christ will return at an appointed time.
Let’s address Romans, 9:11: “… for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls.” This scripture has not only been taken out of context, it has been twisted to say something which it clearly does not. What is this chapter about? We’ll start at the top. Verse 1. “I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, that I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,” Paul is referring to Israel. Not his spiritual brothers, but rather his genetic tree from which Christ also came. (“My kinsmen according to the flesh.”) verse 4 … who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Paul lists his affinity for the nation of Israel and his desire that he himself were accursed if it would then allow the Jewish nation to be redeemed. Christ did that. Galatians 3:13 “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree.” No other can accomplish this. Paul is simply stating the depth of his love for his nation as a parent does for a child, or as some will desire for dead or dying loved ones.
Verse 6 “Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sara shall have a son. And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
Above, again Paul clarifies further of whom he is speaking. Genesis 12:1 Now the Lord said to Abram, “Go from your country and your kindred and your father’s house to the land that I will show you. And I will make of you a great nation… ” Genesis, 18:9 They said to him, “Where is Sarah your wife?” And he said, “She is in the tent.” The Lord said, “I will surely return to you about this time next year, and Sarah your wife shall have a son.” Now, Sarah doubted and tried to help God out by offering her maidservant as a surrogate thus two nations sprang from Abraham. One of the promise, and one of the flesh.
Genesis, 21:12 But God said to Abraham, “Be not displeased because of the boy and because of your slave woman. Whatever Sarah says to you, do as she tells you, for through Isaac shall your offspring be named. And I will make a nation of the son of the slave woman also, because he is your offspring.”
It is very clear to whom Paul referring to in this chapter. The children of promise. Not those who were to be saved. This is why Paul is saddened by the fact that, while offspring which would become the Jewish nation was promised, salvation was not given to all descendants because they did not believe. Hebrews, 3:19. “So we see that they were unable to enter because of unbelief.” Salvation is and always was by faith, by believing in Gods work and grace. Abraham believed and it was credited to him as righteousness. Salvation is individual, not national.
So, who are the chosen in Romans, 9:11? “… for the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calls.” Who are the elect referred to here? Those Sarah elected to produce through a surrogate because of doubt? No. In this section of scripture it refers to the natural offspring of Abraham through Isaac. There are other scriptures that use the word elect. So, let’s address exactly what is being said when Christ and others refer to the “elect.”
Elect means Chosen. Matthew, 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.” What is being said when we read the words, elect, chosen? They are the same word. Elect, Chosen = ἐκλεκτός, ἐκλεκτή, ἐκλεκτόν (ἐκλέγω), picked out, chosen. So God calls many. Those who believe and put their faith in Him are picked out, chosen, elected and become the “Bride of Christ.” Who makes it to the wedding feast? How does one prepare? We will not find the “Kingdom of Heaven” in spaceships, nor by way of inter dimensional travels. We can not work our way there by perfect behavior and adherence to a set of rules. It is by faith. By faith in the work of God through the sacrifice of His Son.
Romans, 8:29-30 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. And yet… “Many are called and few are chosen”. Paul’s statement above is either not true, or someone misinterpreted it. If He justified those individuals He called, how can many be called and few chosen?
Now let’s examine Ephesians chapter 1.
Verse 3 – 5
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will… First. He uses the words, us, we, so we know he is speaking of a group. Which group? Clearly to believers about believers. The church at Ephesus. The faithful, believers, the chosen. And, to this group of believers, these faithful, what is the message? Well, that He has blessed us with every spiritual blessing that exists in heaven. “Flesh and blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God.” So, of necessity we receive a new Flesh and bone body. ( Not to make an issue of this because I have not done enough research on this. Was there blood in His body, because it was poured out for sin upon the cross. (Luke 24:39, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” And here, Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the creature is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls for it is the blood that makes an atonement for the soul.” Leviticus 17:11) 1 Corinthians 15:42. “So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.” Next he states that He/God chose believers as a group before the earth was formed. This also makes sense, since as we saw above, Christ was slain before the foundations of the earth and revealed at the chosen time. He says we are to be made holy and blameless through the sacrifice of Christ for His purpose.
God had a plan. Before Satan tempted Eve and the resulting fall, God foresaw this happening and provided the sacrifice.
Verse 6 – 9. “To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. in whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace; wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence; having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:”
He made us accepted in the beloved/Christ. We are redeemed by by the sacrifice of Christ and are forgiven, for God, is so rich in grace. He has bestowed on us bountiful grace in his wisdom and prudence. He has told us, He has revealed to us what Abraham and old testament believers did not see. The Christ, His new covenant in keeping with His purpose before creation, for His own pleasure. God was not fooled by Satan. Satan was thwarted and defeated by Christs sacrifice before events began to manifest in the physical universe.
Verses 10 – 12. That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: in whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will: that we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Again, at a preordained time, His plan to gather everything in Christ, both in heaven and on earth, in whom we also, have obtained an eternal inheritance, we according to Gods plan, by His effort to save us is to His praise and glory. The first fruits of mankind that put their faith in Christ.
Verse 13 -14. … In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory. After we trust and believe the “Good News,” we are sealed with the promise. What promise? Romans, 8:23 “… And not only the creation, but we ourselves, who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, groan inwardly as we wait eagerly for adoption as sons, to wit, the redemption of our bodies.” The promise of a new eternal, spiritual body when our adoption is finalized. All that is promised to us in heaven. What that consists of,? I don’t know. We are told in, 1 Corinthians, 2:9. Rather, as it is written: “No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no heart has imagined, what God has prepared for those who love Him.”
Verses 19 – 23 “… and what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come: and hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, which is his body, the fullness of him that fills all in all.
What is the greatness of Gods power? How does it benefit us? He accomplished his plan through Christ. When Adam sinned and death entered it was not the defeat of God, but rather the defeat of mankind in a natural body.it initiated a first step in Gods plan for redemption. It was foreseen and inevitable. Not a problem. God knew and had prepared before it began. Christ would take human form, atone by shedding His blood in sacrifice, thereby defeating death physically in a body such as Adam inhabited. “Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death, He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil.” Hebrews, 2:14 And, Hebrews, 9:16. “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.” God’s plan, His desire always was to be in a “Love” relationship with His souls. They could not chose Him if they were incapable of experiencing life. We inhabit a body, with a mind, which allows for true love, not slavish, apish behavior. We are Brothers of the son. “Pointing to His disciples, He said, “Here are My mother and My brothers. For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother.” Matthew 12:46. Yes this is true, yet we must remember, we are brothers to the King of Kings.
Philippians, 2:7 – 8. Christ changed bodies from spiritual to earthly when He came to allow for death. He was eternal before that.“…But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: and being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” The elect, the chosen are the church, the Body of Christ as a whole.
Christ is King of Kings, the firstborn from the dead. He is the head. God is in control. Always has been, always will be. The misguided assertion that God is unjust, and man has no free will to respond neither positively nor negatively is not true. It is a deception many have fallen into and it can lead into complacency and sin when one believes they are saved and can never fall.
Revelations, 3:20 “Behold, I stand at the door and knock: if any man hear my voice and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!”
1st Peter, 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy. Again, speaking to and about the Church. That generation of the Church. Remember the elect is the same word as chosen. eklektos is used 23 times. Elect 16 times. Chosen 7 times.
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Dorothy Mae
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You misunderstood me. Calvinists don’t use the words “God is unjust” but say something nebulous to the charge all the while accepting a description of God that everyone else knows is unjust and therefore untrue.
We have no means to know if any calvinists here are unjust. Calvinism presents a theology of God where He has to be unjust.
What they teach God does shows God to be unjust. Of course they don’t admit this.
True, not all or many of us know the bases for his decisions although we can know and some do. None of the decisions are arbitrary.
Those laws do not teach us right from wrong. They cannot. Either we have it in us or we don’t but they won’t put it there. And we all know justice when we see it. Just listen to people complain about injustice they suffered.
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Dorothy Mae
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Never said Abe called God. And how do you know if God hadn’t called Omar but the man refuses to leave home?
It also describes in great deal the testing and obedience the man had to undergo to inherit the promise.
And he had to leave home, sacrifice his son and generally obey God. The scripture says “he who does what is righteous is righteous” too.
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Dorothy Mae
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If God chooses some to get saved and others not for no reason, it is not gracious but unjust. Therefore it does not describe how he acts.
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Dorothy Mae
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Then don’t make definitive statements about what we don’t know. We don’t know if God called others who refused.
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Dorothy Mae
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Yes and they can also say they’re going to heaven no matter what being elected, so might as well enjoy the worlds pleasures. But this is off topic.
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Dorothy Mae
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Is randomly refusing to save some make up for randomly saving others? I know Calvinists run away from the injustice of their god by trying to focus on those being saved. It reminds me of the daughter of a terrible brutal dictator who says of her father, “he was always kind to me” as though that made a difference to the masses he unjustly tormented.
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Dorothy Mae
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Dorothy Mae
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So it a man’s fault because someone else (Adam) wanted to do wrong. That makes no sense.
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Dorothy Mae
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Where exactly does Ephesians 1 Describe how people come to faith in Him?
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Dorothy Mae
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It’s a really silly doctrine that hangs on one verse, that requires God to essentially save a person before that person can be saved. It assumes people are all alike which they aren’t. It assumes no man can think or has a conscience to realize their sin. Jesus actually described what happens when people hear the Gospel. He didn’t indicate in any way God’s role. I suspect because trying to figure it out leads to error.
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More than one verse. An entire two chapters in Ephesians and also first five chapters of Romans. They call that doctrine.
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Dorothy Mae
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I Just read it. See nothing about God having to save a man before he can be saved. I read the promises to those who said yes to Jesus. Don’t see a history of how they got there.
Decided to read Romans with your claim in mind and found evidence that the claims of calvinism are wrong. Romans 1 says the unsaved knew God but refused to honor him. No mention of God’s acting on them except He gave them over to their desires later.
Romans 2, the hard and impenitent heart is storing up wrath. Romans 2:6, God will render a man according to his works. No word about predestined for heaven no matter how one behaves. This in Romans 2 describes how God is actually just rendering to a man according to his works.
One can see why calvinism is popular. Works play no role in judgement in that theology. The dishonor to the character of God in the eyes of the world is a small price to pay. Absolutely certain God doesn’t see it that way though.
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