Is Calvinism a heresy?

[Derf]

So a person manufactures faith?

Is that a problem?

There is some power within a person separate from God, created by some mysterious "other" or simply by the will or reason of that person that prompts a person to believe?

Why does a person need a prompt outside of the preaching of the death, burial and resurrection of Christ?

Then all we need to do is find out how to trigger that, yes?

Are you talking about me needing to find the trigger in someone else as I'm sharing the gospel? Or that the unbeliever needs to find the trigger in himself to start believing?

It is a secular understanding that man can be "learned" to the proper thought or "reasoned" into the right thinking.

You mean "persuaded"? That's what Paul was trying to do:
Acts 18:4 KJV — And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

Acts 19:26 KJV — Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:
Acts 28:23 KJV — And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

However, if a person is convinced of God (Faith) as faith needs an object then that person is certain of the actual reality of God.

Isn't that the object Paul was persuading people of? That and the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, which gives hope for our own resurrection?

And maybe you can help me persuade @bbbbbbb that something that needs an object is something that is to be exercised, like "faith".

That is faith.
God is not a thought or a myth or an intellectual concept.
God is a reality that can be trusted.

Yep, I'm all with you there. But a Calvinist would say, "God is a reality that can be trusted, if He has decreed that you trust Him. Otherwise He can't be trusted."

 

[Derf]

I don't have a problem with what you said other than Paul says every man has been given a measure of faith. Your argument reminds me of the Calvinist's argument that all doesn't mean all.

Well, I can't disagree with Calvinist's on everything without rejecting that Christ came in the flesh.

Here is another text that uses the same phrase.

Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Did Jesus come to save every one on earth? Or did He come just to save those who the Calvinists' say were chosen?

I guess you're asking @QvQ this question to make a point, but of course Jesus came to save every one on earth. But that doesn't mean
1. that every man will be saved, or
2. that "all" doesn't ever have caveats

 

[QvQ]

Is that a problem?

A person cannot manufacture faith. Christ Himself appeared, preached, died and was resurrected and through all of that, for instance, the Roman Soldiers who witnessed the entire event, did not believe. So yes, it is not just preaching the Gospel. A person cannot manufacture faith within himself by reading the Bible nor can he manufacture faith within someone else. It is by the Grace of God that man is saved, not by his own understanding (bootstrapping) or being preached at.
It is commanded to preach the Gospel however no where does it say that any man, through his works, is the instrument of his own or another's salvation.

Isn't that the object Paul was persuading people of? That and the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, which gives hope for our own resurrection?

Faith is a noun. I have faith is meaningless without defining the "object."
I have faith?
I have faith..in unicorns?
I have faith..in First National Bank?

I can be persuaded perhaps that unicorns exist or First National is the bank it's advertisements claim it to be

However, no man persuades another man to believe. Even Paul. Faith is a gift from God, not evidence of Paul's advertising genius. It is not Paul persuading but the Holy Spirit working within, the grace of God that bestows faith.

In order for a person to be persuaded that unicorns exist or First Nation Bank is trustworthy, there has to be a corresponding reality. There must be a unicorn extant or proof of the Banks trustworthiness, no matter how much persuading there is in words.

If a person is blind, he cannot see a tree, even if the tree is directly in front of him. But if a man regain his sight, then he sees the tree.
So it is with God and Amazing Grace, "Was blind but now I see"

 

[Derf]

A person cannot manufacture faith.

Says who? Did you want to define faith, since @bbbbbbb gave up? Why doesnt faith mean for someone to believe in something, i.e., accept that something as true?

Christ Himself appeared, preached, died and was resurrected and through all of that, for instance, the Roman Soldiers who witnessed the entire event, did not believe.

Some probably did, else we might not have the soldiers' description of what happened. In fact we know some believed:

Matthew 27:54 KJV — Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

So yes, it is not just preaching the Gospel. A person cannot manufacture faith within himself by reading the Bible

He can by believing the bible is true.

nor can he manufacture faith within someone else.

Do you have children? Have you ever told them something was true, and they believed you? Like that the sun is a big ball of flaming gas 93 million miles away?

What about something that wasn't true? Like that Santa Claus comes down a chimney to deliver gifts on Christmas Eve?

Haven't you, in both those cases, manufactured faith in someone else? And Jesus told us to be like a child in believing Him.

It is by the Grace of God that man is saved, not by his own understanding (bootstrapping) or being preached at.

I dont see why It can't be both, though "bootstrapping" doesn't seem to apply.

It is commanded to preach the Gospel however no where does it say that any man, through his works, is the instrument of his own or another's salvation.

Sure it does:
1 Corinthians 9:22 KJV — To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.

Faith is a noun. I have faith is meaningless without defining the "object."
I have faith?
I have faith..in unicorns?
I have faith..in First National Bank?

I can be persuaded perhaps that unicorns exist or First National is the bank it's advertisements claim it to be

However, no man persuades another man to believe.

I've shown above how one can.

Even Paul. Faith is a gift from God, not evidence of Paul's advertising genius. It is not Paul persuading but the Holy Spirit working within, the grace of God that bestows faith.

Again, I don't see why it can't be both that Paul persuaded (as the Bible said he did) and the Holy Spirit convicted men's hearts (as the Bible says He does). Why do you say something that is so obviously counter to what the Bible tells us?

In order for a person to be persuaded that unicorns exist or First Nation Bank is trustworthy, there has to be a corresponding reality. There must be a unicorn extant or proof of the Banks trustworthiness, no matter how much persuading there is in words.

Unicorns don't have to be real for people to believe in them, just like Santa coming down the chimney need not be true. Misplaced faith doesn't save, but it most certainly exists, as you can tell by all the other religions in the world--no unicorns are actually needed.

If a person is blind, he cannot see a tree, even if the tree is directly in front of him. But if a man regain his sight, then he sees the tree.
So it is with God and Amazing Grace, "Was blind but now I see"

Do you believe in John Newton? Why? Is it because God caused you to believe in him? That without God's gift of faith in John Newton, you would never have imagined that he once existed, that he gave up slave trading and write a song? Maybe without the Holy Spirit's prompting you would never be able to sing the words "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound"?

It might not be true for you, but there are millions of people that believe that John Newton existed and wrote those words without any prompting by the Holy Spirit. Why? Because they have evidence that he existed (the song) and others have told them he existed.

The difference is that Jesus Christ died for their sins and rose again with a promise that we too will rise again some day. All they need is a willing preacher and an accepting mind to have eternal life. Some might even just need access to a bible. To say to someone, "You can't believe in Christ unless God allows you to believe in Him" is a preposterous contortion of the scriptures. And that would seem to be the proper basis for calling Calvinism a heresy.

 

[Gary K]

You might be right, Gary, and I might have quite the uphill climb to convince anyone in this, but it seems to me that the context is suggesting something different.

The verse succeeding your citation explains:
Romans 12:4 KJV — For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office:

Surely unbelievers don't have any "office" in the church. So Paul is talking about what comes after conversion.

The context is referring not to saving faith, but gifts of the Spirit. And those gifts are not all given to everyone in the same measure. Here's vs 6:
Romans 12:6 KJV — Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

How does one prophecy according to the proportion of faith? Is Paul telling unbeIlievers to prophecy only a little because He hasn't given them enough faith to believe? Of course not. Not does it make sense that Christians with the gift of prophecy should only prophecy only a little because God hasn't given them enough faith to exercise their gift fully.

Rather, it seems like Paul is exhorting the believers to exercise the gifts they have been given, and not take over other believers' "offices", so that everyone will be able to do everything needed in the body.

Hey Derf,

I left an importamt message for you on our old pm chain.

 

[Gary K]

Well, I can't disagree with Calvinist's on everything without rejecting that Christ came in the flesh.

I guess you're asking @QvQ this question to make a point, but of course Jesus came to save every one on earth. But that doesn't mean
1. that every man will be saved, or
2. that "all" doesn't ever have caveats

You're missing the point. The text I quoted to you uses the exact same phrase as the last one I posted to QVQ.

 

[Gary K]

Says who? Did you want to define faith, since @bbbbbbb gave up? Why doesnt faith mean for someone to believe in something, i.e., accept that something as true?

Some probably did, else we might not have the soldiers' description of what happened. In fact we know some believed:

Matthew 27:54 KJV — Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.


He can by believing the bible is true.

Do you have children? Have you ever told them something was true, and they believed you? Like that the sun is a big ball of flaming gas 93 million miles away?

What about something that wasn't true? Like that Santa Claus comes down a chimney to deliver gifts on Christmas Eve?

Haven't you, in both those cases, manufactured faith in someone else? And Jesus told us to be like a child in believing Him.

I dont see why It can't be both, though "bootstrapping" doesn't seem to apply.

Sure it does:
1 Corinthians 9:22 KJV — To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.


I've shown above how one can.

Again, I don't see why it can't be both that Paul persuaded (as the Bible said he did) and the Holy Spirit convicted men's hearts (as the Bible says He does). Why do you say something that is so obviously counter to what the Bible tells us?

Unicorns don't have to be real for people to believe in them, just like Santa coming down the chimney need not be true. Misplaced faith doesn't save, but it most certainly exists, as you can tell by all the other religions in the world--no unicorns are actually needed.

Do you believe in John Newton? Why? Is it because God caused you to believe in him? That without God's gift of faith in John Newton, you would never have imagined that he once existed, that he gave up slave trading and write a song? Maybe without the Holy Spirit's prompting you would never be able to sing the words "Amazing Grace how sweet the sound"?

It might not be true for you, but there are millions of people that believe that John Newton existed and wrote those words without any prompting by the Holy Spirit. Why? Because they have evidence that he existed (the song) and others have told them he existed.

The difference is that Jesus Christ died for their sins and rose again with a promise that we too will rise again some day. All they need is a willing preacher and an accepting mind to have eternal life. Some might even just need access to a bible. To say to someone, "You can't believe in Christ unless God allows you to believe in Him" is a preposterous contortion of the scriptures. And that would seem to be the proper basis for calling Calvinism a heresy.

Says Jesus.

oh 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Joh 16:9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Joh 16:10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Joh 16:11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Remember it was after Pentacost that Peter's sermon converted 3000 people in one day. That was because of the work of the HS. Peter didn't all of a sudden become a super preacher who could speak all languages at once.

 

[QvQ]

Haven't you, in both those cases, manufactured faith in someone else? And Jesus told us to be like a child inB believing Him.

And that is exactly the argument of the atheist. Gullible children believe "6 impossible things before breakfast."

I have faith in God (Father, Son, Holy Ghost, co-equal co-substantial)
That is the Nicene Creed and the First Commandment.

Tell me exactly how you distinguish a mythical fantasy from an objective reality.
To me, God has an objective reality. It is not simply "believing" what I read in a book or what someone told me or something I imagine.
The only way to be convinced of God's reality is through the Holy Spirit because through the Holy Spirit we know God.

Now the Question Augustine, Aquinas and Calvin all addressed is that a willing preacher and an accepting mind is not sufficient to salvation.
It is known fact that many Catholics, baptized and raised in the faith, learned in Catholic schools are only nominal Catholic and some are outright atheist.
That was the question the theologians asked and the answer is The Holy Spirit.

If it is the work of the Holy Spirit and not given to everyone then...
Aquinas would say that the atonement was sufficient but not efficient for all.
Calvin agreed.

That is the question...how is a man truly saved? As man does want to find a method for man to make true believers of men and it can't be done by man.

It is the work of the Holy Spirit and that is the Will of God.

All they need is a willing preacher and an accepting mind to have eternal life.

@Gary K answered that in Post #1,287

 

[Derf]

Remember it was after Pentacost that Peter's sermon converted 3000 people in one day. That was because of the work of the HS. Peter didn't all of a sudden become a super preacher who could speak all languages at once.

Would the work of the Holy Spirit have been enough? If so, then why was Peter necessary? Why was speaking in all their languages necessary? Why did they need to hear from Peter in order to have the right kind of faith, if they had to already have the right kind of faith to get anything from Peter?

And that is exactly the argument of the atheist. Gullible children believe "6 impossible things before breakfast."

Yep--and the truthfulness of the object isn't required to have faith. Truthfulness is only required for the faith to benefit the person. You seem to be saying that besides truthfulness, there's another quality required for the truth to be believed.

I have faith in God (Father, Son, Holy Ghost, co-equal co-substantial)
That is the Nicene Creed and the First Commandment.

God commands people to do something He knows they can't even want to do?

Tell me exactly how you distinguish a mythical fantasy from an objective reality.

The best way is to observe the event or item in question. The next best is to hear about the event/item from a trusty source. We dont have direct access to observe the events of Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, so the next best is to hear about it from eyewitnesses, perhaps in written form.

To me, God has an objective reality. It is not simply "believing" what I read in a book or what someone told me or something I imagine.
The only way to be convinced of God's reality is through the Holy Spirit because through the Holy Spirit we know God.

But through preaching we know the good news. You're saying such preaching is in vain unless the good news isn't necessary, in which case there's no need to preach.

Now the Question Augustine, Aquinas and Calvin all addressed is that a willing preacher and an accepting mind is not sufficient to salvation.
It is known fact that many Catholics, baptized and raised in the faith, learned in Catholic schools are only nominal Catholic.
That was the question the theologians asked and the answer is The Holy Spirit.

If it is the work of the Holy Spirit and not given to everyone then...
Aquinas would say that the atonement was sufficient but not efficient for all.
Calvin agreed.

That is the question...how is a man truly saved? As man does want to find a method for man to make true believers of men and it can't be done by man.

What you've done is set up an extra hurdle beyond what God acknowledges. God knows that no one can be saved unless he believes. But in addition to that you say no one can believe unless he is saved (i.e., given the right kind of faith).

It is the work of the Holy Spirit and that is the Will of God.

This is the will of God:
that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Q1: Why does God's will need to be spoken to people? Wouldn't God just make the people He wants believe what He wants them to believe?
Q2: Why does Jesus tell people who will not believe (because He won't let them) what to believe to be saved? And why does He say "you believe" to those who can't believe?

John 6:29 KJV — Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

@Gary K answered that in Post #1,287

hardly.

 

[QvQ]

Yep--and the truthfulness of the object isn't required to have faith. Truthfulness is only required for the faith to benefit the person. You seem to be saying that besides truthfulness, there's another quality required for the truth to be believed.

Yes, if the only quality is truthfulness then all men would believe.
There is also the fact that truthfulness is not required for faith.
There must be another quality, mainly the Holy Spirit as man is easily misguided and mislead by "believe."

The best way is to observe the event or item in question. The next best is to hear about the event/item from a trusty source. We dont have direct access to observe the events of Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, so the next best is to hear about it from eyewitnesses, perhaps in written form.

Then you do not believe that God exists except what is written or spoken about God? You don't believe in prayer, for instance, as a way to observe the item.

But through preaching we know the good news. You're saying such preaching is in vain unless the good news isn't necessary, in which case there's no need to preach.

Preaching the Gospel is commanded as Paul was commanded and Paul spoke the words the Holy Spirit dictated. It is necessary that men hear the words but the words are not enough. It is always the Holy Spirit. Don't you believe in the Holy Spirit or do you believe that man wrote the words, man determines for himself what the word means and man is thereby, through his choice saved?
No Holy Spirit needed...just preacher man and an amen chorus.

As for the questions, I have to go to work. Out of Time
And you did not answer the question...Why when men are baptized, preached the word, taught obedience, raised in the Faith, learned in Catholic Schools, why are not all saved?

There is an ingredient that Aquinas and Calvin noted...and you haven't answered that question as to what that is. Calvin said the Holy Spirit. Aquinas said Free Will. I tend to agree with Calvin.

 

[Gary K]

Would the work of the Holy Spirit have been enough? If so, then why was Peter necessary? Why was speaking in all their languages necessary? Why did they need to hear from Peter in order to have the right kind of faith, if they had to already have the right kind of faith to get anything from Peter?


Yep--and the truthfulness of the object isn't required to have faith. Truthfulness is only required for the faith to benefit the person. You seem to be saying that besides truthfulness, there's another quality required for the truth to be believed.

God commands people to do something He knows they can't even want to do?

The best way is to observe the event or item in question. The next best is to hear about the event/item from a trusty source. We dont have direct access to observe the events of Jesus' death, burial, resurrection, so the next best is to hear about it from eyewitnesses, perhaps in written form.

But through preaching we know the good news. You're saying such preaching is in vain unless the good news isn't necessary, in which case there's no need to preach.

What you've done is set up an extra hurdle beyond what God acknowledges. God knows that no one can be saved unless he believes. But in addition to that you say no one can believe unless he is saved (i.e., given the right kind of faith).

This is the will of God:
that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Q1: Why does God's will need to be spoken to people? Wouldn't God just make the people He wants believe what He wants them to believe?
Q2: Why does Jesus tell people who will not believe (because He won't let them) what to believe to be saved? And why does He say "you believe" to those who can't believe?

John 6:29 KJV — Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.



hardly.

Because God has chosen to give we human beings a part of the joy of bringing people to Jesus. I know there are no verses that say that directly, but look at the apostles and how they sacrificed their lives to have a part in saving others.

I understand that in a small degree. I've preached and helped bring people to Jesus and there is nothing more rewarding and soul satisfying on God's green earth. Nothing even comes close. Everything else is a very distant second.

I used to love debating Bible truths but no more. I love to share the love of God now. It's so much more rewarding there is no comparison,and the only person who can instill that in any person's heart is God.

 

[Derf]

Yes, if the only quality is truthfulness then all men would believe.

You're saying that even prior to the fall, mankind needed the Holy Spirit to regenerate them before they could believe God's threat of death for eating of the tree?

There is also the fact that truthfulness is not required for faith.

If you admit that, then you admit that it isn't the faith that's being given. It's something else. That's why I go back to the "regeneration" that's being given, in Calvinism. Faith, by its very nature, requires it to be of the person's will, or that person is not believing. If God forces a new will on you, then it's not you anymore.

There must be another quality, mainly the Holy Spirit as man is easily misguided and mislead by "believe."


Then you do not believe that God exists except what is written or spoken about God? You don't believe in prayer, for instance, as a way to observe the item.

Prayer requires the belief already, else you wouldn't pray.
Hebrews 11:6 KJV — But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Preaching the Gospel is commanded as Paul was commanded and Paul spoke the words the Holy Spirit dictated. It is necessary that men hear the words but the words are not enough.

They're not?
John 6:63 KJV — It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

John 6:68 KJV — Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

Acts 5:20 KJV — Go, stand and speak in the temple to the people all the words of this life.

It is always the Holy Spirit. Don't you believe in the Holy Spirit or do you believe that man wrote the words, man determines for himself what the word means and man is thereby, through his choice saved?

I dont understand why you think all of those things follow from anything I've said. But I do wonder what you mean by "faith".

No Holy Spirit needed...just preacher man and an amen chorus.

Not to "manufacture" faith, anyway. For conviction of sin? Absolutely.

As for the questions, I have to go to work. Out of Time
And you did not answer the question...Why when men are baptized, preached the word, taught obedience, raised in the Faith, learned in Catholic Schools, why are not all saved?

First, how do you know they aren't? Second, can you point me to any denomination where following the formula actually saves someone?
Third, if anyone hears the truth but does not believe it, they aren't saved. (That's like not having faith, right?)

There is an ingredient that Aquinas and Calvin noted...and you haven't answered that question as to what that is. Calvin said the Holy Spirit. Aquinas said Free Will. I tend to agree with Calvin.

ok

 

[QvQ]

Prayer requires the belief already, else you wouldn't pray.

I was an atheist. Born and Raised.
I was curious so I read the Bible.
I was fascinated by the stories. I particularly liked Genesis, Job and Ecclesiastes, Psalms.
I didn't believe or disbelieve it. I read it like Grimms Fairy Tales or Western Philosophy.
The Gospel was Powerful. Very impressed with Christ.
I did not believe a word of it. I felt that any educated person should be familiar with one of the monuments of English Literature. I would have filed it under "Fiction" in the library.

I was reading along and it said, Matthew 7 : 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

That got my attention. What an interesting proposition. Just ask God "Does God Exist."
I asked in serious, good faith. I really did want to know....
So, a person who does not believe is apt to be the first to pray.

But I do wonder what you mean by "faith".

To me, Faith is a dialogue. God answered that prayer.

It is through the Scripture that I found that prayer.
Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria

 

[Derf]

I was an atheist. Born and Raised.
I was curious so I read the Bible.

Would you say the Holy Spirit was already at work? I would. Somehow you found a bible...

I was fascinated by the stories. I particularly liked Genesis, Job and Ecclesiastes, Psalms.
I didn't believe or disbelieve it. I read it like Grimms Fairy Tales or Western Philosophy.
The Gospel was Powerful. Very impressed with Christ.
I did not believe a word of it. I felt that any educated person should be familiar with one of the monuments of English Literature. I would have filed it under "Fiction" in the library.

At this point, had God already given you faith?

I was reading along and it said, Matthew 7 : 7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye. shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh. findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.

That got my attention. What an interesting proposition. Just ask God "Does God Exist."
I asked in serious, good faith. I really did want to know....
So, a person who does not believe is apt to be the first to pray.

You asked in "serious good faith", yet you call yourself "a person who [did] not believe?

Had God given you faith yet?

To me, Faith is a dialogue. God answered that prayer.

Faith certainly includes dialog.

It is through the Scripture that I found that prayer.
Sola Scriptura, Sola Gratia, Sola Fide, Solus Christus, Soli Deo Gloria

I understand that you want to give glory to God, but what you've described above is a journey in faith that we all must make. We start with a tiniest fraction of faith--just enough to admit that what we are hearing or reading is possibly true. We can ask God to help our unbelief (Mark 9:24 KJV — And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.), to explain things to us better (Matthew 16:17 KJV — And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.)

But those things, the helping and revealing, aren't faith. The journey isn't faith. The fact that you read the Bible isn't faith. The fact that you prayed that simple prayer isn't faith.

What is faith?

 

[Gary K]

Would you say the Holy Spirit was already at work? I would. Somehow you found a bible...

At this point, had God already given you faith?

You asked in "serious good faith", yet you call yourself "a person who [did] not believe?

Had God given you faith yet?

Faith certainly includes dialog.

I understand that you want to give glory to God, but what you've described above is a journey in faith that we all must make. We start with a tiniest fraction of faith--just enough to admit that what we are hearing or reading is possibly true. We can ask God to help our unbelief (Mark 9:24 KJV — And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.), to explain things to us better (Matthew 16:17 KJV — And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.)

But those things, the helping and revealing, aren't faith. The journey isn't faith. The fact that you read the Bible isn't faith. The fact that you prayed that simple prayer isn't faith.

What is faith?

In reply to what I emphasized at the end of your post. You say it isn't faith to ask God to reveal Himself in good faith? Why would you ever say that? It takes faith to ask and God that question. QvQ had been reading scripture and the Bible tells us "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I did exactly the same thing when I was deep into drug addiction and so burned out I couldn't hold down a job. I would walk around late at night, stoned, and look up at the sky and ask , out loud, if the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was real, and if He was would he reveal himself to me. He did it in a very odd way. I ended up spraining my ankle really badly and had to ask my parents if I could live with them as I was going to be laid up for quite a while.

They were living out in the boonies of the northwestern corner of Montana at the time about thirty miles from the closest town. I was there for almost a year, It was the middle of winter with a good 3 feet of snow on the ground and I was going stir crazy in a short time. I have always been a reader and I had read every secular book they had. I eventually started reading a set of books by Ellen White on the story of our planet and the history and future of sin. I had always loved history so I started out reading her books on the history of sin and what God has done to combat it. I got to her book on the life of Christ and came to realize that God loved me as a person. I couldn't imagine that as I'd been taught all my life that I was completely worthless. To cut the chase I learned to love God because He loves me.

So God leads us by mysterious ways and the Holy Spirit is often working in our lives long before we realize it. The love of God for all of us, His friends and His enemies, is just beyond our imagination.

 

[Derf]

In reply to what I emphasized at the end of your post. You say it isn't faith to ask God to reveal Himself in good faith? Why would you ever say that? It takes faith to ask and God that question. QvQ had been reading scripture and the Bible tells us "faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

You answered your own question:
"You say it isn't faith to ask God to reveal Himself in good faith?...
It takes faith to ask and God that question."
If it requires faith to ask the question, then asking the question is evidence of faith, not faith itself.

So what is "faith", Gary?

I did exactly the same thing when I was deep into drug addiction and so burned out I couldn't hold down a job. I would walk around late at night, stoned, and look up at the sky and ask , out loud, if the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was real, and if He was would he reveal himself to me. He did it in a very odd way. I ended up spraining my ankle really badly and had to ask my parents if I could live with them as I was going to be laid up for quite a while.

They were living out in the boonies of the northwestern corner of Montana at the time about thirty miles from the closest town. I was there for almost a year, It was the middle of winter with a good 3 feet of snow on the ground and I was going stir crazy in a short time. I have always been a reader and I had read every secular book they had. I eventually started reading a set of books by Ellen White on the story of our planet and the history and future of sin. I had always loved history so I started out reading her books on the history of sin and what God has done to combat it. I got to her book on the life of Christ and came to realize that God loved me as a person. I couldn't imagine that as I'd been taught all my life that I was completely worthless. To cut the chase I learned to love God because He loves me.

So God leads us by mysterious ways and the Holy Spirit is often working in our lives long before we realize it. The love of God for all of us, His friends and His enemies, is just beyond our imagination.

I agree with all that, and thanks for sharing how God used things that seemed bad to you to bring you to a knowledge of Christ.

So the question is, did God give you a measure of faith that allowed you to believe (have faith) in Christ? Or did God arrange the circumstances so that you, in your boredom, would read the truth about Christ, so you could decide to pursue it further? You could have rejected the opportunity at the first sign of anything to do with Christ, just as @QvQ could have refused to read the Bible he found.

 

[QvQ]

You asked in "serious good faith", yet you call yourself "a person who [did] not believe?

Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.
Good Faith in this case means I wasn't "tempting God" (Matthew 4: 7)
I wasn't mocking God or daring God.
I was merely curious. It seemed a reasonable experiment. And I was surprised at the answer.

So the question is, did God give you a measure of faith that allowed you to believe (have faith) in Christ? Or did God arrange the circumstances

That is the work of the Holy Spirit.

@QvQ could have refused to read the Bible he found.

No.
Where could I hide from God?
"Could have " doesn't count.

What is faith?

Faith is a dialogue.
It is prayer. Faith does not simply "include" prayer.
That was the premise of the question. Does God exist. If God exists then God can hear and answer.
I can simply ask God although I am careful to stay within the boundaries of the Scripture to avoid self deception and vain imagining.

"What is the Kingdom of God?" is a legitimate question
"What are the winning lottery numbers?" I would have to read them online after the fact.
God is not at my command.

Now, what I have wondered for a while:
What exactly in your point? What are you trying to prove theologically?

 

[Gary K]

You answered your own question:
"You say it isn't faith to ask God to reveal Himself in good faith?...
It takes faith to ask and God that question."
If it requires faith to ask the question, then asking the question is evidence of faith, not faith itself.

So what is "faith", Gary?


I agree with all that, and thanks for sharing how God used things that seemed bad to you to bring you to a knowledge of Christ.

So the question is, did God give you a measure of faith that allowed you to believe (have faith) in Christ? Or did God arrange the circumstances so that you, in your boredom, would read the truth about Christ, so you could decide to pursue it further? You could have rejected the opportunity at the first sign of anything to do with Christ, just as @QvQ could have refused to read the Bible he found.

Oh, Derf. You have ignored the scripture I have given you on faith. Why, as it would have given you the answers to your questions. Your response is why I dislike dispensationalism as it seems to cause those who believe it to ignore a lot of scripture.

Faith cometh by hearing. and hearing by the word of God. That's a direct quote from Paul whom you dispensationalists claim to follow. Yet your own reading of him causes you to ignore his plain words.

 

[Derf]

Oh, Derf. You have ignored the scripture I have given you on faith. Why, as it would have given you the answers to your questions. Your response is why I dislike dispensationalism as it seems to cause those who believe it to ignore a lot of scripture.

Faith cometh by hearing. and hearing by the word of God. That's a direct quote from Paul whom you dispensationalists claim to follow. Yet your own reading of him causes you to ignore his plain words.

I'm not sure I would count myself a dispensationalist. But I'm happy to hear what Paul has to say about faith either way.

What is it that comes by hearing, Gary? Use a synonym if you need to. Use a definition if you need to. Just finding a sentence that talks about faith doesn't define faith.

 

[Gary K]

I'm not sure I would count myself a dispensationalist. But I'm happy to hear what Paul has to say about faith either way.

What is it that comes by hearing, Gary? Use a synonym if you need to. Use a definition if you need to. Just finding a sentence that talks about faith doesn't define faith.

Huh? Faith comrth by hearing and hearing by the word of God, doesn't mean faith? How do you come up with this? Sorry, but to me that sounds like utter nonsense.