Is Calvinism a heresy?

[bbbbbbb]

Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us:
I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region.
Acts 13:46-49


Paul and Barnabas were sent to that region with the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, to proclaim the way of salvation to them. Some rejected it, and some received it.


No one is ever saved apart from believing the Gospel, the word, the message of Jesus Christ.


If a group of people were “appointed” to receive eternal life, then obviously they don’t have eternal life yet. First they must hear the Gospel, and then believe it, in order to receive the intended eternal life.


God intends that the whole world should receive eternal life through His Son, however there must be those willing to go and preach the good news, like Paul and Barnabas did.


You would understand this if you read the context and not just lifting one verse out of context.

Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. Acts 13:1-4

Calvinism teaches a person is first saved, (somehow without ever hearing and believing the Gospel; which is a Christ-less salvation) then they can believe the Gospel.

Obviously these people whom Paul and Barnabas were sent to heard the Gospel then they believed. Being appointed to eternal life means it is appointed for you to hear the Good News of Jesus Christ. Those who believe are saved, those who do n’t believe are damned.

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16

JLB

Calvinism is slightly more nuanced. It maintains that God has regenerated the spirits of the elect prior to the foundation of the world, not that He saved them (although it is effectively similar). Salvation is realized when the elect individual places His faith in Jesus Christ. That presents the curious problem regarding those who have been regenerated but do not place their faith in Jesus Christ, such as unborn infants. It is similar to the problem regarding the possibility of Jesus having been able to sin.

 

[Derf]

Calvinism is slightly more nuanced. It maintains that God has regenerated the spirits of the elect prior to the foundation of the world, not that He saved them (although it is effectively similar).

So you're saying that Calvinism says God did more (prior to creation) than decree they would be saved? He actually regenerated their spirits before He created them?

I dont think many Calvinists would agree with that

Salvation is realized when the elect individual places His faith in Jesus Christ. That presents the curious problem regarding those who have been regenerated but do not place their faith in Jesus Christ, such as unborn infants. It is similar to the problem regarding the possibility of Jesus having been able to sin.

I agree this is a curious problem.

 

[bbbbbbb]

So you're saying that Calvinism says God did more (prior to creation) than decree they would be saved? He actually regenerated their spirits before He created them?

I dont think many Calvinists would agree with that

I agree this is a curious problem.

This is the essence of monergism, as typically defined as follows:

Monergism is the view within Reformed Calvinist theology that holds to the philosophy that God works through the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration prior to salvation, regardless of the individual's cooperation.

Calvinists, along with Lutherans, adopted much of their monergism from Augustine. Lutherans, by contrast, do not believe in double predestination (that God not only has chose those whom He will save, but also has chosen those whom He will not save).

 

[Derf]

This is the essence of monergism, as typically defined as follows:

Monergism is the view within Reformed Calvinist theology that holds to the philosophy that God works through the Holy Spirit to bring about the salvation of an individual through spiritual regeneration prior to salvation, regardless of the individual's cooperation.

Calvinists, along with Lutherans, adopted much of their monergism from Augustine. Lutherans, by contrast, do not believe in double predestination (that God not only has chose those whom He will save, but also has chosen those whom He will not save).

"Prior to salvation" is not the same as "Prior to existence." Even God doesn't regenerate what hasn't yet been generated.

I think what you wrote here is in keeping with Calvinism.

 

[byword]

I'm in no position to declare any doctrine heretical or not. That's way above my pay-grade so to speak.

I am in such a position… it’s heresy!

I would burn Calvinist literature before I would burn the Koran…(not that I’ve ever burned anything like that), it’s that deceptive, and will play a major role in the apostasy.

 

[bbbbbbb]

"Prior to salvation" is not the same as "Prior to existence." Even God doesn't regenerate what hasn't yet been generated.

I think what you wrote here is in keeping with Calvinism.

In much Calvinist thought the concept of a timeless God having effected His will in the salvation of individuals certainly accommodates the idea of having regenerated them prior to their existence in time.

 

[Derf]

In much Calvinist thought the concept of a timeless God having effected His will in the salvation of individuals certainly accommodates the idea of having regenerated them prior to their existence in time.

I agree there's some odd conundrums that present themselves, but the description is not one most Calvinists would agree with.

 

[bbbbbbb]

I agree there's some odd conundrums that present themselves, but the description is not one most Calvinists would agree with.

I haven't polled Calvinists, so I really can't say whether or not most would agree or disagree. However, I have encountered it both here at CF and outside of CF, so it is not an obscure belief.

 

[Derf]

I haven't polled Calvinists, so I really can't say whether or not most would agree or disagree. However, I have encountered it both here at CF and outside of CF, so it is not an obscure belief.

It would be interesting to ask those who hold to such that question: "Do you believe God regenerated people before He generated them?"

 

[bbbbbbb]

It would be interesting to ask those who hold to such that question: "Do you believe God regenerated people before He generated them?"

I thought about that, as well. Perhaps you might start a new thread, preferably in a Calvinist forum, with a poll attached. Please let me know if you do. Thank you.

 

[maxamir]

Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, “It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles. For so the Lord has commanded us:
I have set you as a light to the Gentiles,
That you should be for salvation to the ends of the earth.’ ”
Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.
And the word of the Lord was being spread throughout all the region.
Acts 13:46-49


Paul and Barnabas were sent to that region with the Gospel message of Jesus Christ, to proclaim the way of salvation to them. Some rejected it, and some received it.


No one is ever saved apart from believing the Gospel, the word, the message of Jesus Christ.


If a group of people were “appointed” to receive eternal life, then obviously they don’t have eternal life yet. First they must hear the Gospel, and then believe it, in order to receive the intended eternal life.


God intends that the whole world should receive eternal life through His Son, however there must be those willing to go and preach the good news, like Paul and Barnabas did.


You would understand this if you read the context and not just lifting one verse out f context.


Now in the church that was at Antioch there were certain prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon who was called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch, and Saul. As they ministered to the Lord and fasted, the Holy Spirit said, “Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away. So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus. Acts 13:1-4




Calvinism teaches a person is first saved, (somehow without ever hearing and believing the Gospel; which is a Christ-less salvation) then they can believe the Gospel.


Obviously these people whom Paul and Barnabas were sent to heard the Gospel then they believed. Being appointed to eternal life means it is appointed for you to hear the Good News of Jesus Christ. Those who believe are saved, those who do n’t believe are damned.

And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. Mark 16:15-16



JLB

I never said that God saves anyone without the Gospel. God uses the foolishness of Gospel preaching to grant faith to His people. It is the means that God uses to bring them to Himself.

1Co 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

Rom 10:17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

The Gospel does not go forth only to save. It also goes forth to make some more accountable and bring them to a greater condemnation for hearing it and not obeying it's command to repent and believe.

2Co 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.
2Co 2:16 To the one we are the aroma of death leading to death, and to the other the aroma of life leading to life. And who is sufficient for these things?

The greatest love a Christian can have to anyone besides laying down their life for them is to preach the Gospel to them, warning them that they need to flee the wrath of God to Christ. Those who feel no urgency to do so, are not yet Christians.

1Co 9:16 For if I preach the gospel, I have nothing to boast of, for necessity is laid upon me; yes, woe is me if I do not preach the gospel!

 

[JLB777]

Calvinism is slightly more nuanced. It maintains that God has regenerated the spirits of the elect prior to the foundation of the world, not that He saved them (although it is effectively similar). Salvation is realized when the elect individual places His faith in Jesus Christ. That presents the curious problem regarding those who have been regenerated but do not place their faith in Jesus Christ, such as unborn infants. It is similar to the problem regarding the possibility of Jesus having been able to sin.

Thanks for sharing your opinion with us.



Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10



Paul endured much suffering so that the elect may also obtain salvation.





JLB

 

[JLB777]

I never said that God saves anyone without the Gospel.

That’s good.

 

[JLB777]

It would be interesting to ask those who hold to such that question: "Do you believe God regenerated people before He generated them?"

Please post the scripture that has inspired such a question.

 

[JLB777]

Salvation is realized when the elect individual places His faith in Jesus Christ.

How does one go about “placing their faith” in Jesus Christ?

I think you mean believe in Jesus Christ. Believe carry’s the idea of trust, commit as well as obey.

We certainly place our trust in Jesus Christ.


Faith is a noun. It is something. We receive faith from God.


I see no reason to attempt to give the faith we receive from God, back to Him.


Do you understand the law of faith; the principle by which faith operates to produce the intended divine result?





JLB

 

[bbbbbbb]

How does one go about “placing their faith” in Jesus Christ?

I think you mean believe in Jesus Christ. Believe carry’s the idea of trust, commit as well as obey.

We certainly place our trust in Jesus Christ.

Faith is a noun. It is something. We receive faith from God.

I see no reason to attempt to give the faith we receive from God, back to Him.

Do you understand the law of faith; the principle by which faith operates to produce the intended divine result?

JLB

You are correct. One cannot place something that one does not possess. One receives faith when one trusts.

 

[Derf]

You are correct. One cannot place something that one does not possess. One receives faith when one trusts.

Synonyms of trust​

Noun

• confidence
• credence
• faith

You talk like a Calvinist--"you have to be saved before you can be saved." Or "you have to have faith before you can have faith."

 

[bbbbbbb]

Synonyms of trust​

Noun

• confidence
• credence
• faith

You talk like a Calvinist--"you have to be saved before you can be saved." Or "you have to have faith before you can have faith."

We seem to be talking past each other. Trust can be a noun as well as a verb. Faith is never used as a verb. I can be trusting something, but I can't be faithing it. If you use trust as synonymous with faith then you have a point. If trust and faith are things that one has (and everyone alive has them) then their object must be viewed. One can easily have trust that the sun will rise in the east in the morning. That faith is derived from experience coupled with knowledge. It is self-generated.

One can make the argument that Christian faith is similar to that sort of faith. It can be based on knowledge accompanied by experience. Ultimately, however, we have at least one major difference in the quality of that faith/trust. James made that quite clear when he declared that even the demons believe. Their faith/trust, however, will not save them from eternal destruction, nor will such faith/trust save any individual who does not persevere in faith/trust as exhibited by a life of good works.

The question, then is the origin of the second form of faith/trust which saves an individual. It cannot be the same as that of the demons, but must come from God Himself as Paul describes in I Corinthians. It is not worldly and cannot be grasped by the carnal mind. It is spiritual, coming from God.

 

[Derf]

We seem to be talking past each other. Trust can be a noun as well as a verb. Faith is never used as a verb.

Actually, I think the Greek word for faith, πίστις, has a verb form, πιστεύω. It means to trust or have faith in.

I can be trusting something, but I can't be faithing it.

Yes, you can in the greek.

If you use trust as synonymous with faith then you have a point. If trust and faith are things that one has (and everyone alive has them) then their object must be viewed.

Faith/trust isn't a magic power one has or doesnt have. To "have faith" means to believe. It is an exercise of the will. We've been told that God raised Jesus from the dead--and that act has implications for our own continued life--that we too will be resurrected from the dead, never to die again. We believe/ have faith in the truthfulness of what we've been told, and accept the ramifications of that act, that Jesus is Lord, even over death.

One can easily have trust that the sun will rise in the east in the morning. That faith is derived from experience coupled with knowledge. It is self-generated.

One can make the argument that Christian faith is similar to that sort of faith. It can be based on knowledge accompanied by experience. Ultimately, however, we have at least one major difference in the quality of that faith/trust. James made that quite clear when he declared that even the demons believe. Their faith/trust, however, will not save them from eternal destruction, nor will such faith/trust save any individual who does not persevere in faith/trust as exhibited by a life of good works.

Then you can see why it's different from demons' belief (πιστεύουσιν --also with same Greek root)--they don't accept Him as Lord, though they recognize Him as judge:
Matthew 8:29 KJV — And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

The question, then is the origin of the second form of faith/trust which saves an individual. It cannot be the same as that of the demons, but must come from God Himself as Paul describes in I Corinthians. It is not worldly and cannot be grasped by the carnal mind. It is spiritual, coming from God.

If God decides who will have the faith to believe in Him, then you concede to the Calvinists. You also concede to determinism, which doesn't comport with Christ's offer of good news to the world.

(I dont see how I Cor helps your position.)

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, I think the Greek word for faith, πίστις, has a verb form, πιστεύω. It means to trust or have faith in.

Yes, you can in the greek.

Faith/trust isn't a magic power one has or doesnt have. To "have faith" means to believe. It is an exercise of the will. We've been told that God raised Jesus from the dead--and that act has implications for our own continued life--that we too will be resurrected from the dead, never to die again. We believe/ have faith in the truthfulness of what we've been told, and accept the ramifications of that act, that Jesus is Lord, even over death.

Then you can see why it's different from demons' belief (πιστεύουσιν --also with same Greek root)--they don't accept Him as Lord, though they recognize Him as judge:
Matthew 8:29 KJV — And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?


If God decides who will have the faith to believe in Him, then you concede to the Calvinists. You also concede to determinism, which doesn't comport with Christ's offer of good news to the world.

(I dont see how I Cor helps your position.)

I Corinthians 2:1 And when I came to you, brethren, I did not come with superiority of speech or of wisdom, proclaiming to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness and in fear and in much trembling, 4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.

6 Yet we do speak wisdom among those who are mature; a wisdom, however, not of this age nor of the rulers of this age, who are passing away; 7 but we speak God’s wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory; 8 the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9 but just as it is written,

“Things which eye has not seen and ear has not heard,
And which have not entered the heart of man,
All that God has prepared for those who love Him.”

10 For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.

14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. 15 But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one. 16 For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he will instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I do not have any issue with God's Spirit actively engaging in the salvation of individuals - either now or in eternity.