Is Calvinism a heresy?

[Derf]

Huh? Faith comrth by hearing and hearing by the word of God, doesn't mean faith? How do you come up with this? Sorry, but to me that sounds like utter nonsense.

Try it this way:
The definition of "faith" is "faith cometh by hearing." Does that definition make sense to you? It shouldn't, because it's not a definition of faith, it just describes where faith comes from. It would be like me saying, "the definition of a 'train' is 'the train is arriving at midnight.'" From such a statement you might understand a little bit more about trains, i.e., that they arrive and that they are on a schedule, but you don't know a train from Santa Claus so far.

You can eliminate some possibilities from the potential definitions of faith from your verse, but you can't tell faith from a phone call (which comes by hearing).

What is faith?

 

[Gary K]

Huh? Faith comrth by hearing and hearing by the word of God, doesn't mean faith? How do you come up with this? Sorry, but to me that sounds like utter nonsense.

Rereading your post I believe I misunderstood you. Trust is to me the meaning of faith. The more we get to know God, personally, the more we trust Him for He is the most trustworthy person in the universe.

 

[Derf]

Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God.
Good Faith in this case means I wasn't "tempting God" (Matthew 4: 7)
I wasn't mocking God or daring God.
I was merely curious. It seemed a reasonable experiment. And I was surprised at the answer.

I think I made my point. (Not to take anything away from your spiritual journey--I'm glad you were willing to ask the question.

That is the work of the Holy Spirit.

No question about that. But was it faith that was being given to you?

No.
Where could I hide from God?
"Could have " doesn't count.

That assumes that God has picked you from before the foundation of the world. Yet thats what we're discussing in this thread, whether that's true. Such is called "begging the question."

Faith is a dialogue.
It is prayer. Faith does not simply "include" prayer.

Not "simply" at all. But "faith" is not defined as "prayer".

That was the premise of the question. Does God exist. If God exists then God can hear and answer.
I can simply ask God although I am careful to stay within the boundaries of the Scripture to avoid self deception and vain imagining.

Good!

"What is the Kingdom of God?" is a legitimate question
"What are the winning lottery numbers?" I would have to read them online after the fact.
God is not at my command.

Now, what I have wondered for a while:
What exactly in your point? What are you trying to prove theologically?

I'm trying to show that faith is not a mysterious super power that is induced in you by God.

 

[QvQ]

'm trying to show that faith is not a mysterious super power that is induced in you by God.

Faith is a dialogue.

'm trying to show that faith is not a mysterious super power that is induced in you by God.

And I am trying to show you that Faith is a relationship with God.

Now answer this question.
What is your definition of faith?

One thing that has come to my attention is "election." And I have been considering denominations. I had a conversation with a neighbor who stated that since I did not speak in tongues I was not saved.
So by his definition I am unelected.
Now, that person believes that his denomination are the Elect, having the "true way" and that person Self Selects to be one of the Elect, then that means a person or a group of people has the power to Select to Elect but God doesn't

 

[QvQ]

I think I made my point. (Not to take anything away from your spiritual journey--I'm glad you were willing to ask the question.

Curiosity is defined as "irresistible grace" in this instance. And I did not choose the answer. There was only One Answer and it was God exists.

 

[Derf]

Faith is a dialogue.

I don't agree with your definition, but for now, let's assume it is correct.

And I am trying to show you that Faith is a relationship with God.

In order for faith to be a "dialog"/relationship, how does God give one faith?

Now answer this question.
What is your definition of faith?

It's not my definition:
Hebrews 11:1 KJV — Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Notice there's no dialog in that, but an expectation of a future thing, or an acknowledgement of an unobserved thing.

Faith in Abraham's case was that he believed God for the promises, even though the promises hadn't yet come to fruition (and many wouldn't until after he was dead).

Here's a dialog. Are either of the parties exhibiting saving faith?
Job 2:2-6 KJV — And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

One thing that has come to my attention is "election." And I have been considering denominations. I had a conversation with a neighbor who stated that since I did not speak in tongues I was not saved.

1 Corinthians 12:30 KJV — Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret?

So by his definition I am unelected.

You can see why definitions are important.

Now, that person believes that his denomination are the Elect, having the "true way" and that person Self Selects to be one of the Elect, then that means a person or a group of people has the power to Select to Elect but God doesn't

A person or group have the power to be wrong, but God doesn't.

After election, a person or group have the power to be enemies of the gospel:
Romans 11:28 KJV — As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

Some here say Calvinism is a heresy or if not a heresy then a system of beliefs some of which are heretical or in error.

Others say that Calvinism is accurate and good.

I am among the first group.

 

[QvQ]

@Derf

Some here say Calvinism is a heresy or if not a heresy then a system of beliefs some of which are heretical or in error.

Others say that Calvinism is accurate and good.

I am among the first group.

This thread is worn out.
We can agree to disagree but it seems there is little interest in the discussion.
I bid you all adieu and see you around the forums

 

[Dan1988]

I dont think that's true. If marriage makes a man and woman "one flesh", and marriage is a picture of Christ and His church, then wouldn't the bridegroom share everything with His bride?

Well, the original punisment was "death", defined as Adam returning to the dust, not "eternal punishment in hell", which is defined as "second death". A second death sounds like double jeopardy, unless we commit a second grievance.

Sure, but what is the purpose of salvation? To live again like we already were living?

I thought we receive blessings as fellow heirs with Christ.

No longer enemies, remember.

Yes, and that we believe in God's grace.

I dont think that fairly represents Arminius.

Calvinism isn't without its picked cherries, as you can see from the above.

Being fellow heirs with Christ doesn't mean we have some kind of claim to the finished work of Christ on the cross. The work of salvation was accomplished by Christ alone, for us while we were dead in our sins and trespasses.

We don't deserve to be heirs or the recipients of anything Christ accomplished on the cross. I appreciate your points but I think you took my comments out of their intended context. I probably overemphasized the point I was trying to make, which was simply that the Lord doesn't share His glory with anyone.

My understanding is that salvation is all of the Lord and we don't contribute anything of our own. We only contribute that which the Lord has gifted us by His grace. We know that faith is not something everyone is born with, it has to be given to us as an undeserved gift. The ability to receive and believe the gospel is also a gift, which has nothing to do with how intelligent or educated a person is.

 

[Dan1988]

Some here say Calvinism is a heresy or if not a heresy then a system of beliefs some of which are heretical or in error.

Others say that Calvinism is accurate and good.

I am among the first group.

I'm in the second group. Unlike yourself I don't make important decisions, based on their popularity. The Bible isn't written in a way that leaves us with multiple truths, where everyone can use their intellect to choose an option which suits their particular lifestyle.

God is not the author of confusion, His Word is confusing to the natural man but it's clear and plain to His children. He said "My sheep hear my voice"

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

I don't make important decisions, based on their popularity.

Nor do I.

The decisions I make are informed by holy scripture, by the teaching of the holy Catholic Church, by the fathers of the Church, and most of all by God in prayer.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

The Bible isn't written in a way that leaves us with multiple truths, where everyone can use their intellect to choose an option which suits their particular lifestyle.

Perhaps you can explain where all the other non-Calvinist Christians went wrong? Is it that only a Calvinist can read holy scripture accurately.

 

[Xeno.of.athens]

God is not the author of confusion, His Word is confusing to the natural man but it's clear and plain to His children.

Really?

Why do so many faithful Christians disagree with TULIP if it is so plain to God's children?

 

[Derf]

Really?

Why so so many faithful Christians disagree with TULIP if it is so plain to God's children?

It's because they were all decreed to do so, don't you know.

 

[Derf]

Being fellow heirs with Christ doesn't mean we have some kind of claim to the finished work of Christ on the cross. The work of salvation was accomplished by Christ alone, for us while we were dead in our sins and trespasses.

We don't deserve to be heirs or the recipients of anything Christ accomplished on the cross. I appreciate your points but I think you took my comments out of their intended context. I probably overemphasized the point I was trying to make, which was simply that the Lord doesn't share His glory with anyone.

My understanding is that salvation is all of the Lord and we don't contribute anything of our own. We only contribute that which the Lord has gifted us by His grace. We know that faith is not something everyone is born with, it has to be given to us as an undeserved gift. The ability to receive and believe the gospel is also a gift, which has nothing to do with how intelligent or educated a person is.

Actually, Jesus said the complete opposite--that you ARE born with faith, (but you can become hardened, sometimes BY education...maybe even by theological education)
Luke 18:16-17 KJV — But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

The same chapter relates a story of a blind man who refused to give in to the people around him, but cried all the louder, "Son of David, have mercy on me."

Jesus healed him, and explained, "Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee."

He didn't say "receive thy faith", like that was the part that was broken, but "receive thy sight."

Jesus called only two people's faith "great" during His earthly ministry, both non-Jews. One He actually rebuked for coming to get what are the time was only being offered to the Jews. If it was only being offered to the Jews, why didn't God just withhold the faith from her for the time being?
Matthew 15:28 KJV — Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Notice who's faith it was? Not "great is the faith I have given thee." She had the faith, and He gave the gift of healing.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Actually, Jesus said the complete opposite--that you ARE born with faith, (but you can become hardened, sometimes BY education...maybe even by theological education)
Luke 18:16-17 KJV — But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God. Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein.

The same chapter relates a story of a blind man who refused to give in to the people around him, but cried all the louder, "Son of David, have mercy on me."

Jesus healed him, and explained, "Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee."

He didn't say "receive thy faith", like that was the part that was broken, but "receive thy sight."

Jesus called only two people's faith "great" during His earthly ministry, both non-Jews. One He actually rebuked for coming to get what are the time was only being offered to the Jews. If it was only being offered to the Jews, why didn't God just withhold the faith from her for the time being?
Matthew 15:28 KJV — Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

Notice who's faith it was? Not "great is the faith I have given thee." She had the faith, and He gave the gift of healing.

I was born with faith, but certainly not saving faith in Jesus Christ. I did not have an inkling of that sort of faith until I reached adulthood.

 

[Derf]

I was born with faith, but certainly not saving faith in Jesus Christ. I did not have an inkling of that sort of faith until I reached adulthood.

You're not born believing in Christ. But you have the capacity to rely on Him for truth, just like a child has no idea his parents might steer him wrong. Think of Adam and Eve. They believed God, but then Satan arrived and told a different story. Children are like that. Jesus called it "faith".

Maybe you're thinking of "the faith", that was once for all delivered to the saints, Jude 3. That's a different concept, and it has not been given to infants, but to believers so they can pass it on to others.

 

[bbbbbbb]

You're not born believing in Christ. But you have the capacity to rely on Him for truth, just like a child has no idea his parents might steer him wrong. Think of Adam and Eve. They believed God, but then Satan arrived and told a different story. Children are like that. Jesus called it "faith".

Maybe you're thinking of "the faith", that was once for all delivered to the saints, Jude 3. That's a different concept, and it has not been given to infants, but to believers so they can pass it on to others.

The faith which every person possesses in one form or another is simply a matter of human nature, as I think you will agree. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a conscious, intelligent faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Derf]

The faith which every person possesses in one form or another is simply a matter of human nature, as I think you will agree. It has nothing whatsoever to do with a conscious, intelligent faith in Jesus Christ.

That's why I think it makes more sense to talk about a capacity for faith, rather than a conscious, intelligent faith. We all have the same capacity for faith, and some exercise it more than others, like when Jesus talked about "great" faith or "little" faith.

 

[bbbbbbb]

That's why I think it makes more sense to talk about a capacity for faith, rather than a conscious, intelligent faith. We all have the same capacity for faith, and some exercise it more than others, like when Jesus talked about "great" faith or "little" faith.

It is quite impossible, however, to exercise faith without knowledge. For example, one cannot exercise faith in the ethical system known as Confucianism unless one knows the fundamentals of that system.