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Is Calvinism a heresy?

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John Mullally

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Strange then that God should have misread that situation. Cain DIDN’T choose to obey … almost like “Total Depravity”, huh?
God desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth (1 Timothy 2:4). Cain of his own volition chose not to observe God's well-meant warning - just as some do today. God dealt graciously with Cain later in Genesis, but it does not appear that Cain got right with God - that does not establish your "Total Depravity" hypothetical.
"And this is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil.”
  • Who is “people”?
John 3:20 does not say all people. If you read further onto John 3:21 (which you strategically cut out), some people come to the light.
 
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maxamir

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Ok.


Please post the scripture that says “repentance is a fruit of salvation granted only to those whom God has sovereignly chosen”.


Here is my scripture for you to consider.


“Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.”
Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”
Then Peter said to them, “Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.” Acts 2:36-39


Was Peter preaching the Gospel to saved people or unsaved people?








JLB
The Gospel is indiscriminately preached to all people and those who were saved were those at the end of the verse you quoted...as many as the Lord our God will call (Acts 2:39) and the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved (v 47). These are the ones that were granted repentance (Acts 11:18) and faith (Php 1:29) because they were sovereignly ordained to eternal life (Acts13:48) before they could possibly do anything (Rom 9:11).

These people throughout Scripture are called the elect and their number is not known by man but they all share one thing in common, they know that salvation does not belong to them.

Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!
 
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JLB777

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These are the ones that were granted repentance (Acts 11:18) and faith (Php 1:29) because they were sovereignly ordained to eternal life (Acts13:48) before they could possibly do anything (Rom 9:11).

People who state their opinion and then tag their opinion with a scripture reference, are usually in error.


There is nothing in the scriptures that say what you claim. Of course you know this which is why you avoid posting the actual scripture.



Only those who believe and therefore obey the Gospel are saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9







JLB
 
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John Mullally

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The Gospel is indiscriminately preached to all people and those who were saved were those at the end of the verse you quoted...as many as the Lord our God will call (Acts 2:39) and the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved (v 47). These are the ones that were granted repentance (Acts 11:18) and faith (Php 1:29) because they were sovereignly ordained to eternal life (Acts13:48) before they could possibly do anything (Rom 9:11).
Acts 11:17-18 and Philippians 1:29: Being granted the privilege of believing in Christ is similar to (a) Israel being granted repentance (Acts 5:30-31) and (b) the Gentiles being granted repentance (Acts 11:17-18), which comes about by the opportunity to hear and believe in the gospel. Obviously, not all Jews and Gentiles took advantage of that opportunity—and which makes us all the more accountable. The problem is that Calvinists equivocate between being granted repentance in Christ with being irresistibly caused to do so. Acts 7:51 shows that many resist the Holy Spirit.

Romans 9:11: The Old Testament sometimes refers to the nation of Israel by its tribal head, Jacob, and the nation of Edom by its tribal head, Esau. For instance, Jeremiah 30:7 speaks of “the time of Jacob’s distress” which actually refers to the nation of Israel. Such is the case with Malachi 1:2-5, which is the source material for Romans 9:13, which specifically mentions God’s indignation toward the nation of “Edom.” (Malachi 1:3-5) So, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated” functionally means “[Israel] I loved, but [Edom] I hated.” Genesis 36:8 states: “Esau is Edom.” The reference by tribal headship can be confusing, which Calvinists end up falling into.
These people throughout Scripture are called the elect and their number is not known by man but they all share one thing in common, they know that salvation does not belong to them.
Jesus Christ is the Elect One, resulting that all who come to be “in Him,” that is, identified with Him in His body and as His bride, jointly share in His election, and hence believers in Him may rightly also be called “the elect” or favored. FYI: Jesus shares his glory with them.

John 17:20 “My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21 that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one— 23 I in them and you in me—so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me.​
Rev 7:9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could number, of all nations, tribes, peoples, and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, with palm branches in their hands,
Rev 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb!
Christ’s death accomplished the finished work of the atonement’s provision for salvation, so that now anyone who believes in Jesus can receive His free gift of eternal life. In other words, the “It is finished” statement deals specifically with the provision of salvation being finished.

Christ's atonement is available to all, though is only applied whenever people place their faith in Him, just like His illustration at John 3:14-15 of Numbers 21:6-9 shows. Before a person looked upon the serpent on a standard, was anyone healed? Before a person believes in Jesus, is anyone saved? God Himself established the condition, but Calvinists seek to revise God’s condition to imply that the atonement itself completes a transaction, in which the atonement itself does something to the individual which produces faith.

John 3:14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him.”​
Numbers 21:6 Then the Lord sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. 7 The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the Lord and against you. Pray that the Lord will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. 8 The Lord said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, they lived.
 
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atpollard

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And then some come to the light/narrow-way, and some don't.
... and WHY is the golden question of Theological Debate among "undergraduates". [I am told that UNDERGRADUATE level debate centers on SALVATION and GRADUATE level debate centers on LOVE .]

The Puritains would ask
  • "Do you love God enough that you would be willing to be damned, to bring glory to God?"
Paul said:
  • "For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom [pertain] the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service [of God], and the promises; of whom [are] the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ [came], who is over all, [the] eternally blessed God. Amen." [Romans 9:3-5 NKJV]

[I don't know that I could measure up to Paul or the Puritains.]
 
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atpollard

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If you read further onto John 3:21 (which you strategically cut out), some people come to the light.
[John 3:21 NKJV] "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
[Ephesians 2:1-10]

Soli Deo Gloria!​

 
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John Mullally

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[John 3:21 NKJV] "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
[Ephesians 2:1-10]

Soli Deo Gloria!​

People either come into the light of Jesus for cleansing or remain in the darkness of their sin. Once they have come into God’s light, they see that every action of their new life is only the result of God’s work within them.

The "Soli Deo Gloria" is just another example of Calvinist sanctimony as Jesus shares his glory with his church (John 17:22).
 
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maxamir

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People who state their opinion and then tag their opinion with a scripture reference, are usually in error.


There is nothing in the scriptures that say what you claim. Of course you know this which is why you avoid posting the actual scripture.



Only those who believe and therefore obey the Gospel are saved.


For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. John 3:16


He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” John 3:36



And having been perfected, He became the author of eternal salvation to all who obey Him. Hebrews 5:9







JLB
If you are denying the doctrine of sovereign election unto salvation then I would sincerely request you read your Bible because this truth drips from just about every page in Holy Scripture. Some of these verses can be found below.

41 Bible Verses about election, to salvation

It is true that only those who believe, gratefully obey Christ but they only do so because they who are spiritually dead (Eph 2:1) are first made alive by grace (Eph 2:8) into new creatures in Christ (2 Cor 5:17). To say otherwise is to make anything done by man a work which nullifies grace (Rom 11:6).

Eph 2:10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

saved.jpg
 
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maxamir

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Those who continually argue against the Doctrines of Grace have not yet been humbled to see the wickedness of their own heart so that they look only to Christ and His righteousness alone for salvation.

The doctrine of man's total depravity is the reason that man can only be saved by grace alone and anyone who seeks to argue against Calvinism needs to debunk what the Scriptures plainly teach about who man is after the Fall as seen below.

Man is constituted a sinner by his relationship with Adam Psa 51:5; Psa 58:3; Rom 5:18-19

He is therefore unable...

  1. To do anything good Gen 6:5; Job 15:14-16; Psa 130:3; Psa 143:2; Pro 20:9; Ecc 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 13:23; John 3:19; Rom 3:9-12; Jam 3:8; 1John 1:8
  2. To believe in God (or come to him) John 6:44; John 6:65; John 8:43-45; John 10:26; John 12:37-41
  3. To understand the truth John 14:17; 1Cor 2:14
  4. To seek God Rom 3:10-11
He is dead in sins Gen 2:16-17; John 3:5-7; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13
He is blinded and corrupt in his heart Gen 6:5; Gen 8:21; Ecc 9:3; Jer 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19-21; Rom 8:7-8; Eph 4:17-19; Eph 5:8
He is captive to sin and Satan John 8:34; John 8:44; Rom 6:20; 2Tim 2:25-26; Tit 3:3; 1John 5:19
He performs actions freely according to his nature, but his nature is wholly evil Job 14:4; Mat 7:16-18; Mat 12:33; Mark 7:21-23; Jam 1:13-14
 
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Gary K

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Those who continually argue against the Doctrines of Grace have not yet been humbled to see the wickedness of their own heart so that they look only to Christ and His righteousness alone for salvation.

The doctrine of man's total depravity is the reason that man can only be saved by grace alone and anyone who seeks to argue against Calvinism needs to debunk what the Scriptures plainly teach about who man is after the Fall as seen below.

Man is constituted a sinner by his relationship with Adam Psa 51:5; Psa 58:3; Rom 5:18-19

He is therefore unable...

  1. To do anything good Gen 6:5; Job 15:14-16; Psa 130:3; Psa 143:2; Pro 20:9; Ecc 7:20; Isa 64:6; Jer 13:23; John 3:19; Rom 3:9-12; Jam 3:8; 1John 1:8
  2. To believe in God (or come to him) John 6:44; John 6:65; John 8:43-45; John 10:26; John 12:37-41
  3. To understand the truth John 14:17; 1Cor 2:14
  4. To seek God Rom 3:10-11
He is dead in sins Gen 2:16-17; John 3:5-7; Eph 2:1-3; Col 2:13
He is blinded and corrupt in his heart Gen 6:5; Gen 8:21; Ecc 9:3; Jer 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; John 3:19-21; Rom 8:7-8; Eph 4:17-19; Eph 5:8
He is captive to sin and Satan John 8:34; John 8:44; Rom 6:20; 2Tim 2:25-26; Tit 3:3; 1John 5:19
He performs actions freely according to his nature, but his nature is wholly evil Job 14:4; Mat 7:16-18; Mat 12:33; Mark 7:21-23; Jam 1:13-14
I would disagree with you because Calvin disagrees with you. He believed in righteousness by faith as did all the Reformers of his day.

22. But the fruit 93 of the Spirit. In the former part of the description he condemned
the whole nature of man as producing nothing but evil and worthless fruits. He now informs
us that all virtues, all proper and well regulated affections, proceed from the Spirit, that is,
from the grace of God, and the renewed nature which we derive from Christ. As if he had
said, “Nothing but what is evil comes from man; nothing good comes but from the Holy
Spirit.” There have often appeared in unrenewed men remarkable instances of gentleness,
integrity, temperance, and generosity; but it is certain that all were but specious disguises.
Curius and Fabrieius were distinguished for courage, Cato for temperance, Scipio for
kindness and generosity, Fabius for patience; but it was only in the sight of men, and as
members of civil society, that they were so distinguished. In the sight of God nothing is pure
but what proceeds from the fountain of all purity.
Joy does not here, I think, denote that “joy in the Holy Ghost” (Romans 14:17,) of which
he speaks elsewhere, but that cheerful behavior towards our fellow-men which is the opposite
of moroseness. Faith means truth, and is contrasted with cunning, deceit, and falsehood,
as peace is with quarrels and contentions. Long-suffering is gentleness of mind, which disposes us to take everything in good part, and not to be easily offended. The other terms require
no explanation, for the dispositions of the mind must be learned from the outward conduct.
But if spiritual men are known by their works, what judgment, it will be asked, shall we
form of wicked men and idolaters, who exhibited an illustrious resemblance of all the virtues?
for it is evident from their works that they were spiritual. I reply, as all the works of the flesh
do not appear openly in a carnal man, but his carnaltry is discovered by one or another vice,
so a single virtue will not entitle us to conclude that a man is spiritual. Sometimes it will be
made evident, by other vices, that sin reigns in him; and this observation may be easily applied
to all the cases which I have enumerated.
23. Against such there is no law. Some understand these words as meaning simply that
the law is not directed against good works, “from evil manners have sprung good laws.” But
Paul’s real meaning is deeper and less obvious; namely, that, where the Spirit reigns, the law
has no longer any dominion. By moulding our hearts to his own righteousness, the Lord
delivers us from the severity of the law, so that our intercourse with himself is not regulated
by its covenant, nor our consciences bound by its sentence of condemnation. Yet the law
continues to teach and exhort, and thus performs its own office; but our subjection to it is
withdrawn by the Spirit of adoption. He thus ridicules the false apostles, who, while they
enforced subjection to the law, were not less eager to release themselves from its yoke. The
only way, he tells us, in which this is accomplished, is, when the Spirit of God obtains
dominion, from which we are led to conclude that they had no proper regard to spiritual
righteousness.
24. And they that are Christ’s. He adds this, in order to show that all Christians have
renounced the flesh, and therefore enjoy freedom. While he makes this statement, the apostle
reminds the Galatians what true Christianity is, so far as relates to the life, and thus guards
them against a false profession of Christianity. The word crucified is employed to point out
that the mortification of the flesh is the effect of the cross of Christ. This work does not belong
to man. By the grace of Christ
“we have been planted together in the likeness of his death” (Romans 6:5,)
that we no longer might live unto ourselves. If we are buried with Christ, by true selfdenial,
and by the destruction of the old man, we shall then enjoy the privilege of the sons
of God. The flesh is not yet indeed entirely destroyed; but it has no right to exercise
dominion, and ought to yield to the Spirit. The flesh and its lusts are a figure of speech of
exactly the same import with the tree and its fruits. The flesh itself is the depravity of corrupt
nature, from which all evil actions proceed. (Matthew 15:19; Mark 7:21.) Hence it follows,
that the members of Christ have cause to complain, if they are still held to be in bondage to
the law, from which all who have been regenerated by his Spirit are set free.

This is a partial quote from his commentary on Galatians 5: 22-26.
 
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Derf

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... and WHY is the golden question of Theological Debate among "undergraduates".
Probably because they see their plight as more hopeless, while others think they are good enough without Christ's righteousness.
[I am told that UNDERGRADUATE level debate centers on SALVATION and GRADUATE level debate centers on LOVE .]

The Puritains would ask
  • "Do you love God enough that you would be willing to be damned, to bring glory to God?"
Paul said:
  • "For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, who are Israelites, to whom [pertain] the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service [of God], and the promises; of whom [are] the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ [came], who is over all, [the] eternally blessed God. Amen." [Romans 9:3-5 NKJV]

[I don't know that I could measure up to Paul or the Puritains.]
Yet the puritans lost many of their offspring.
 
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atpollard

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Probably because they see their plight as more hopeless, while others think they are good enough without Christ's righteousness.

Yet the puritans lost many of their offspring.

As a sect of English Protestantism the puritans did not last too long; their views tended to be too extreme.
In a sense, the Puritains failed for the same reason that Israel failed. They arrived in North America to start a colony built on Puritain Religious values and beliefs (escaping persecution in Europe) but created a colony with the co-founders being secular English (non-Puritains). This would seem to parallel the example of Israel taking the promised land and attempting co-habitation with the pagan worshipers living there leading to the corruption of future generations. Puritain failure might have been inevitable (like the Shakers), but as founded, the colony never had a chance. [unequally yoked]

They did give Christiandom writers like Johnathan Edwards and books like Pilgrim's Progress (just as Israel gave us David and our Psalms) ... so the fall of the people does not mean "a failure to be used by God".
 
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Gary K

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Probably because they see their plight as more hopeless, while others think they are good enough without Christ's righteousness.

Yet the puritans lost many of their offspring.
Hey Derf,

Good to see you.
 
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Gary K

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In a sense, the Puritains failed for the same reason that Israel failed. They arrived in North America to start a colony built on Puritain Religious values and beliefs (escaping persecution in Europe) but created a colony with the co-founders being secular English (non-Puritains). This would seem to parallel the example of Israel taking the promised land and attempting co-habitation with the pagan worshipers living there leading to the corruption of future generations. Puritain failure might have been inevitable (like the Shakers), but as founded, the colony never had a chance. [unequally yoked]

They did give Christiandom writers like Johnathan Edwards and books like Pilgrim's Progress (just as Israel gave us David and our Psalms) ... so the fall of the people does not mean "a failure to be used by God".
That statement isn't true. Seems to me you need to read Alexis de Toqueville's book Democratic Institutions of America and Their Influence. He was a 19th century French aristocrat and one of the greatest political analysts of all times. The book is available for a free download at Project Gutenberg.
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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They arrived in North America to start a colony built on Puritain Religious values and beliefs
While this is true for a small band of puritans who sailed for the Americas it is not true of the bulk of puritans who remained in England and Scotland, rose up against Charles I of England, beheaded him, and then ran a national government for many years. The "commonwealth" under Oliver Cromwell failed soon after Cromwell's death and Charles II came to the throne. The movement faded and in our own time there are really no protestants who hold puritan doctrine and practises but there are many who hold fragments of their system.
They did give Christiandom writers like Johnathan Edwards and books like Pilgrim's Progress
Jonathan Edwards was a product of North American colonial religion, before the rebellion that created the USA, he was a Calvinist so he is relevant to this thread, but do many adhere to his religious views now? "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" is one of his much cited sermons, would you be pleased if it were preached in your church now? And The Pilgrim's Progress is an English Baptist work, rather Calvinist in theology but not quite in keeping with Presbyterian and Reformed views. I read Pilgrim's progress and some of Edwards' works but, it has to be said, neither was a joy to read.
 
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Gary K

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While this is true for a small band of puritans who sailed for the Americas it is not true of the bulk of puritans who remained in England and Scotland, rose up against Charles I of England, beheaded him, and then ran a national government for many years. The "commonwealth" under Oliver Cromwell failed soon after Cromwell's death and Charles II came to the throne. The movement faded and in our own time three are really no protestants who hold puritan doctrine and practises but there are many who hold fragments of their system.

Jonathan Edwards was a product of North American colonial religion, before the rebellion that created the USA, he was a Calvinist so he is relevant to this thread, but do many adhere to his religious views now? "Sinners in the hands of an angry God" is one of his much cited sermons, would you be pleased if it were preached in your church now? And The Pilgrim's Progress is an English Baptist work, rather Calvinist in theology but not quite in keeping with Presbyterian and Reformed views. I read Pilgrim's progress and some of Edwards' works but, it has to be said, neither was a joy to read.
I am agreed as far as Jonathon Edwards is concerned. The man's view of God was very distorted.
 
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Derf

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Please post the scriptures that say we are saved by sovereign election.
He'll post them all right. But it will just be a list with no discussion about WHY they relate to sovereign election. If you push him on it, he'll just say you are not able to believe it because He hasn't changed you (enough) yet, or something like that.
 
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Gary K

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He'll post them all right. But it will just be a list with no discussion about WHY they relate to sovereign election. If you push him on it, he'll just say you are not able to believe it because He hasn't changed you (enough) yet, or something like that.
I'll try again since you didn't see my last attempt to say hi.
 
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