Is Calvinism a heresy?

[Derf]

I'm glad you touched on assurance as the only assurance for the Arminian comes from their ability to have faith in their faith and their perseverance in that faith whereas those who are truly regenerated by God know that they justly deserve God's wrath and are His children not because of who they are or anything that they do but solely because they are granted the gift of faith to trust Christ alone, in who He is and what He has done for them. This genuine assurance is evidenced by the Holy Spirit within them and manifested in them becoming new creations (2 Cor 5:17) who die daily to self and live in grateful obedience to Him who died and rose again for them.

Which assurance you just admitted that Calvinism doesn't provide.

Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,

A true work of the Spirit involves humbling a person to see their dusthood and clayness before the Potter and submitting to Him in all things. I sincerely hope He humbles you this side of eternity.

Again, you're relying on nothing except an assumption that God has accepted you and you're not reprobate. But you can't know for sure, because you might just be a tare. A true work of the spirit for the regenerate would be indistinguishable from a delusion sent by God for the reprobate--you wouldn't know you were of the elect, but you would think you were. You'd be saying Lord, Lord, and He'd say I never knew you.

 

[Derf]

Yeah, we discussed it.

I don't understand why you think knowing is the same as determining.

Knowing is NOT the same as determining. But knowing means it is determined.

There are two possible determiners for your actions if you don't exist yet.
1. God (which is Calvinism)
2. Some other being besides God, which means that the other being is more knowledgeable and powerful than God, and God has to learn the future from him.

 

[Derf]

Which assurance you just admitted that Calvinism doesn't provide.

Again, you're relying on nothing except an assumption that God has accepted you and you're not reprobate. But you can't know for sure, because you might just be a tare. A true work of the spirit for the regenerate would be indistinguishable from a delusion sent by God for the reprobate--you wouldn't know you were of the elect, but you would think you were. You'd be saying Lord, Lord, and He'd say I never knew you.

@maxamir
And besides, haven't you just described a work that you're relying on to assure yourself of your salvation?
You know, the spirit humbling you, which the bible describes as you humbling yourself.
James 4:10 KJV — Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

 

[Derf]

There is a Humanistic school of philosophy (related to psychology) that argues that all actions are the result of a series of deterministic causes [they leave God out of it]. They posit that if one could KNOW ALL the facts, one could perfectly predict the choice that you would make. Nothing is random. (Chaos theory)

At its most advanced, it goes beyond me. I merely note that it exists as a SECULAR philosophy as well as a THEOLOGICAL belief. For me, God is either sovereign or He is not … and a God that is not in control makes the Bible false and theology a farce. God is God, or God is not. What exists that is outside of God’s control? (Either “nothing” or “everything”.)

It really comes down to the very DEFINITION of “god”. I do not believe in a “god” that can be bribed or controlled or that wrings its hands waiting for people to do something.

2 Peter 3:8 KJV — But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Why is this necessary? Because He's WAITING FOR PEOPLE TO DO SOMETHING.

2 Peter 3:9 KJV — The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Here's another one, where Jesus, as God, talks of a sort of wringing of hands:
Matthew 23:37 KJV — O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

I believe in a God that is the creator and sustainer of all that is and Who works ALL THINGS according to the good pleasure of His Will.

Does God work ALL THINGS? Do you have a reference for that?

God does not ASK, He TELLS. God does not TRY, He DOES. We exert the same control over God that the clay exerts over the POTTER … none. The Potter CAUSES and the clay responds.

Here's the clay's story
Jeremiah 18:4 KJV — And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.
The potter caused a mistake (in Calvinism), and He had to correct it as best He could.

How could God have anything marred in His hands so that He has to redo it? Is He that poor of a potter? Or could it be that the clay actually capable of marring itself? Surely Jeremiah was shown the latter.

 

[atpollard]

Does God work ALL THINGS? Do you have a reference for that?

Ephesians 1:11
[NASB20] In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will,

 

[atpollard]

Here's the clay's story

Here is the OTHER clay story:

Romans 9:19-24 [NASB20]

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, you [foolish] person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [namely] us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

 

[zoidar]

Knowing is NOT the same as determining. But knowing means it is determined.

There are two possible determiners for your actions if you don't exist yet.
1. God (which is Calvinism)
2. Some other being besides God, which means that the other being is more knowledgeable and powerful than God, and God has to learn the future from him.

I never said there is a determiner of your life before you are born, even God knows what you will choose. Why do you think God knowing means He has determined? It only means God knows what you will determine.

A seer might see in the future, knowing your next child will become a truckdriver. Does that mean the seer has determined your child to become a truckdriver? If not, then how come you believe if God knows your future He has determined it?

*Edited

 

[zoidar]

There is a Humanistic school of philosophy (related to psychology) that argues that all actions are the result of a series of deterministic causes [they leave God out of it]. They posit that if one could KNOW ALL the facts, one could perfectly predict the choice that you would make. Nothing is random. (Chaos theory)

At its most advanced, it goes beyond me. I merely note that it exists as a SECULAR philosophy as well as a THEOLOGICAL belief. For me, God is either sovereign or He is not … and a God that is not in control makes the Bible false and theology a farce. God is God, or God is not. What exists that is outside of God’s control? (Either “nothing” or “everything”.)

It really comes down to the very DEFINITION of “god”. I do not believe in a “god” that can be bribed or controlled or that wrings its hands waiting for people to do something. I believe in a God that is the creator and sustainer of all that is and Who works ALL THINGS according to the good pleasure of His Will. God does not ASK, He TELLS. God does not TRY, He DOES. We exert the same control over God that the clay exerts over the POTTER … none. The Potter CAUSES and the clay responds.

I understand you concern about free will. But the fact is you paint two extremes. I don't hold any of those views. I do believe God is sovereign, omniscient, onmipresent and so on. God is the creator, the sustainer and I also believe God works all things according to the good pleasure of His will. God is in control, but He is not controlling, if you see the difference? God uses our free libertarian choices to accomplish His will. Is that too hard for God? If God wants me to go to the bank He might put a thought in my head about going to the bank. I may say "no" to that thought, but God knows how to get me to the bank the exact time anyway. He might give a friend the thought to call me, to ask me to come with him to the bank, if that is necessary. How all this works is just more than we can fathom. We can only speculate.

 

[zoidar]

Ephesians 2:1-4

What are the range of options from which we are innately free to choose?

That's different from person to person. But I do agree we won't choose Christ unless something happens within us. You call this regeneration/the new birth. I don't! I call it conviction by the Holy Spirit, through which we repent and get regenerated/born again.

 

[QvQ]

@zoidar
I checked out the Ante-Nicene Fathers. I have read writings of those fathers before.
They are interesting as history and commentary. Well worth reading.
I said there is singularly uniqueness in the Gospels, the entire story of Christ that is not from the reason or imagination of man. It transcends man's ability for invention.
However, as to authority or gospel of the Ante-Nicene Fathers who are not included in the New Testament, Paul was included in the New Testament. Again, there is a unique quality to Paul that is not in other commentaries.
Over the centuries there have been countless books, sermons, commentaries written.
The early fathers don't have that unique quality that defines writings inspired by the Holy Spirit.
I can argue with the ante-Nicene fathers or doubt them just as I can argue with Aquinas and Calvin.
I can argue About Paul (what he meant) but I can't argue With Paul (facts and conclusions)
Still Ante- Nicene Fathers is well worth reading as history and commentary.

 

[Derf]

Here is the OTHER clay story:

Romans 9:19-24 [NASB20]

19 You will say to me then, "Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?" 20 On the contrary, who are you, you [foolish] person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21 Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And [He did so] to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 [namely] us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,

Indeed. So if the lump is marred in His hands (Jer 18), then even the master potter cannot continue with His plan, but while He is making the vessel of dishonor , intended for destruction, from the same lump (Jews, both Jer 18 And Rom 9), the opportunity is present to migrate from that lump to the new one.

I never said there is a determiner of your life before you are born, even God knows what you will choose.

Then it is determined (past tense). If it is determined prior to you determining it, then it was determined by someone besides you. Whether that is God or someone else, it still holds.

Why do you think God knowing means He has determined? It only means God knows what you will determine.

No, it means God knows what someone else determined, if He didn't determine it. If it was determined before you existed, then you didn't determine it. You couldn't have, since you didn't exist.

A seer might see in the future, knowing your next child will become a truckdriver. Does that mean the seer has determined you to become a truckdriver?

I don't understand how knowing my child will become a truck driver means that I will become a truck driver.

If not, then how come you believe if God knows your future He has determined it?

I don't necessarily believe He determined my future if He knows my future. But as I stated above, if He knows it m before I existed, then I didn't determine it. So that leaves either God or someone else.

By the way, when I say "my future", I'm talking mostly about all the little things, like what I'll have for breakfast tomorrow. I do that because such is trivial in God's eyes, but it has to be considered if God knows EVERYTHING about my future.

And if there is even a single thing God does not know about my future, then the whole paradigm of God knowing every future act, thought, or word of everybody that is was or will be completely breaks down

 

[zoidar]

I don't understand how knowing my child will become a truck driver means that I will become a truck driver.

That was a typo.

"A seer might see in the future, knowing your next child will become a truckdriver. Does that mean the seer has determined your child to become a truckdriver? If not, then how come you believe if God knows your future He has determined it?"

 

[John Mullally]

Ephesians 2:1-4

What are the range of options from which we are innately free to choose?

That passage does not imply an inability to frreely choose.

Similarly, Isaiah 59:2 states: “But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God, and your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.” Being dead in your trespasses and sins means “separation,” in terms of being under God’s wrath. However, Calvinists infer that it means an inability to believe the gospel apart from an Irresistible Grace.

Ephesians 2:1 As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath. 4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy,​

Parable of the Prodigal son: Luke 15:24 uses the same “dead” vs. “alive” dichotomy but where does it mention anything about an unconscious corpse? It just meant being cut off or separated from the family: “‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.” (Luke 15:22-24)

Even the context of Ephesians chapter 2:11-22 points to separation, describing “you” Gentiles (Ephesians 1:13; 2:1, 11) as having been formerly “separate from Christ,” “excluded,” “strangers,” “having no hope and without God in the world,” “formerly were far off,” “far away” and “strangers and aliens.” Nowhere in the chapter did Paul say that people were “dead” in the sense that they didn’t have free-will, or couldn’t change their mind and believe in God. It’s like saying to someone, “You’re dead to me!” Obviously it doesn’t mean that they are literally dead, but rather metaphorically dead, in terms of being cut off, which can be restored through reconciliation. Another example at 2 Samuel 9:8 implies being dead meat, in which Mephibosheth exclaims: “What is your servant, that you should regard a dead dog like me?” Hell is also called the “second death” (Revelation 2:11, 20:6, 20:14, 21:8), and that doesn’t mean being a corpse either, but instead means being cut off from the presence of God.

 

[QvQ]

This is the part i "wowed". I understand the experience you had of no existence of God, being a source of confusion. What do you think about this experience today?

Interesting. I hadn't thought about it but looking back:

I had been following the laws of God, relying on God, praying for guidance. I had been trying to live my life according to the will of God. I was having fun. I was happy, feeling good about myself but then that awful feeling of fooling myself, of being deluded. The feeling was that God did not exist. The good feelings and good times were just rose colored glasses, not reality at all.

I had a certainty of dog eat dog being reality. The message was to stop being a sap, stop caring about other people. Look out for myself. Get paid and a little extra, taking every advantage.. Take control and obey the laws of self satisfaction, rather than the laws of God. If it feels good, if it profits me then do it. There is only Me, alone against the world. I had the power to control and manipulate the world. I should take control, according to my own needs. and desires.

Those were the two paths I saw. I don't know if I could have chosen the path of self without God. It was more a vision of the two, how lonely and cold it would be without God.

 

[Derf]

That was a typo.

Ok. I've been having a lot of that trouble, too.

"A seer might see in the future, knowing your next child will become a truckdriver. Does that mean the seer has determined your child to become a truckdriver? If not, then how come you believe if God knows your future He has determined it?"

What kind of seers are you talking about? If a prophet of God, his visions are given him by God, so it illustrates that if a true seer tells you your child is going to be a truck driver, then someone besides the seer determined your child's vocation.

If the other kind, well, they aren't to be trusted.

All I can say is God is not like a man who knows things in a linear fashion. God knows things beyond time. It's known in the eternal. That is my view how God knows the future.

You're essentially saying God knows it because He knows it. And maybe that's the only possible answer, but we should be looking to scripture to find out what God knows or doesn't know, and how He knows, if it can be determined from scripture.

There are several passages talking about God learning something. Here's one:
Genesis 22:12 KJV — And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

This seems to be something God learned about Abraham because of his response to the test.

He just knows what you will determine. Your future choice is not limited to what God knew, what God knew is limited to your future choice.

You say that, but do you have a source for it? Or is it merely something you know instinctively?

You might ask if God knows you will have coffee, can you have tea? That's the wrong question. The question is if you choose to have tea instead of coffee, can God have known it?

I agree. But the part you leave out is that God MUST have known it, and from all eternity. But if He knew it, then it was already decided that you would have tea from all eternity, and you were not there with God, then someone besides you decided.

It sounds eerily similar to the Fates of Greek mythology, which even Zeus was subject to.

You don't have to buy it. Just sharing my view.

Sure...that's what this forum is all about.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Uncaused cause ... if God did not CAUSE it, then SOMETHING ELSE did. (If God did not cause that something else - as God being the FIRST CAUSE, then there exist TWO First Causes (uncaused causes).

• a philosophical example would be God and Satan acting in opposition to one another. This is DUALISM ... TWO gods ... two uncaused causes.
• Christianity is monotheistic because it rejects DUALISM ... only GOD is GOD ... beside Him there is no other.

Therefore, God can ultimately be the only "first cause" ... nothing happens because of anything OUTSIDE of God, rather it happens because God wills/purposes it to happen.

• For God to "look forward and "know" something and act on that knowledge, places the cause outside of God.
• In the case of "God sees who will believe", that makes the decision of man the FIRST CAUSE and God acting on that knowledge a Second cause. Men control God in that scenario ... which is illogical and contra-biblical.

Thus what God KNOWS, God also CAUSED to come to pass.
Romans 8:28-30 [NKJV]
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to [His] purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined [to be] conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

EXACTLY!! By definition, "first cause" necessarily means that there can not even be reality apart from his causing it to be what it is.

 

[QvQ]

Genesis 22:12 KJV — And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

This seems to be something God learned about Abraham because of his response to the test.

God tempted Abraham?

 

[atpollard]

That passage does not imply an inability to freely choose.

Yes, it does. It does not imply an inability to choose ... We are free to choose anything that our nature will allow. Ephesians 2:1-4 indicates that our nature is corrupt and at enmity with God, so our choices (absent the draw and special grace of God) are not free in the "libertine" sense of the freedom.

 

[John Mullally]

Yes, it does. It does not imply an inability to choose ... We are free to choose anything that our nature will allow. Ephesians 2:1-4 indicates that our nature is corrupt and at enmity with God, so our choices (absent the draw and special grace of God) are not free in the "libertine" sense of the freedom.

That is not freedom. The Bible says that all have sinned There is nothing in scripture that specifically says that men cannot repent unless the Lord changes their nature. In fact in the OT (Ezekiel 18:30-32), God promises to change the nature of those who repent.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

• “Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”​

• “…get a new heart and a new spirit.”​

​

Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

• “Repent and…”​

• “…live!”​

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!​

​

If God expected people to repent before He changed their nature in the OT, why has the order changed in the NT.

 

[zoidar]

That is not freedom. The Bible says that all have sinned There is nothing in scripture that specifically says that men cannot repent unless the Lord changes their nature. In fact in the OT (Ezekiel 18:30-32), God promises to change the nature of those who repent.

The order clearly laid out is as follows:

• “Repent, Turn away…Rid yourselves…”​

• “…get a new heart and a new spirit.”​

​

Verse 32 makes it even more simple:

• “Repent and…”​

• “…live!”​

Ezekiel 18:30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!​

​

If God expected people to repent before He changed their nature in the OT, why has the order changed in the NT.

That's what I was thinking concerning Eph 2. We were children of wrath waking in accordance with the course of this world. We repented. We were no longer children of wrath, now walking in obedience. Pretty basic and straight forward IMO!