Is belief enough to be saved?

[Frogster]

Yes, and...??? You should be familiar enough with my posting history to know that I've ofttimes stated that Noah was justified by faith. This doesn't mean that he didn't have the corresponding works to go with it, though, does it? I mean, he not only spent much of his lifetime building an ark, but he was also a preacher of righteousness.



True, but that only helps to prove my point, for we read:

Titus 3:3-8

"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving diverse lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS WHICH WE HAVE DONE, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED US, BY THE WASHING OF REGENERATION, AND RENEWING OF THE HOLY GHOST; WHICH HE SHED ON US ABUNDANTLY THROUGH JESUS CHRIST OUR SAVIOUR; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. THIS IS A FAITHFUL SAYING, AND THESE THINGS I WILL THAT THOU AFFIRM CONSTANTLY, THAT THEY WHICH HAVE BELIEVED IN GOD MIGHT BE CAREFUL TO MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. THESE THINGS ARE GOOD AND PROFITABLE UNTO MEN."

Clearly, as in his epistle to the Ephesians and elsewhere, Paul speaks of two different kinds of "works". The first "works" are "the works of the law" by which no man will be saved. IOW, apart from the righteousness which was imputed unto us through our faith in Christ's sacrificial atonement on our behalfs, we have no "washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost" or no new birth or born again experience. This, I will never dispute. However, at the same time, AFTER we've been born again, God fully expects us to MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. In fact, Paul said that Christians ought to CONSTANTLY AFFIRM as much. There's no shortage of scriptures in the New Testament which teach as much...many of them written by the same Paul whom some of you would like us to believe was against all GOOD WORKS. In fact, the only ways around them are to either flat out ignore them or to try to confuse the saints into believing that all GOOD WORKS are synonymous with "the works of the law". They're not, so you people need to give it a rest.



No, it did not come by works. Who said that it did? Certainly not me. What I'm saying is that AFTER we have received such a Divine nature, God fully expects for us to MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS, as many scriptures testify, and as we just finished reading.



Who said that you were wrong? Again, it certainly wasn't me. Of course, the only way that we can be holy is to be in Christ, BUT WE ARE IN CHRIST, SO WE SHOULD BE HOLY. I mean, c'mon, why do you think God gave us the HOLY Spirit?

works of law are used universally by paul, with Abraham, and david, jew and gentile, both in rom 4, romans 2;14-15, and the titus quote, and ephesians, not by works, and they were never under mosaic works anyway.


but...but..the issue is not that..


ok, we know we want to do good works, but u try to fuse them to salvation, using works sanctification. Same as in galatia...a little leaven of 5;9...said with all due respect.

again, yes, works are great, but they don't sanctify, or justify.

 

[Frogster]

She's a "sis"...

typo..but actually maybe not..linda knows here bible better than certain bro's here on the forum.

 

[B-74]

Amen.

"8 But now you must also rid yourselves of all such things as these: anger, rage, malice, slander, and filthy language from your lips. 9 Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices 10 and have put on the new self, which is being renewed in knowledge in the image of its Creator. 11 Here there is no Gentile or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all, and is in all. 12 Therefore, as God’s chosen people, holy and dearly loved, clothe yourselves with compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience. 13 Bear with each other and forgive one another if any of you has a grievance against someone. Forgive as the Lord forgave you. 14 And over all these virtues put on love, which binds them all together in perfect unity. 15 Let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, since as members of one body you were called to peace. And be thankful. 16 Let the message of Christ dwell among you richly as you teach and admonish one another with all wisdom through psalms, hymns, and songs from the Spirit, singing to God with gratitude in your hearts. 17 And whatever you do, whether in word or deed, do it all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through Him." (Colossians 2:8-17)

 

[someguy14]

Praise The Lord! God is good!

 

[Lindas Place]

typo..but actually maybe not..linda knows here bible better than certain bro's her on the forum.

haha... love the typo.

 

[B-74]

typo..but actually maybe not..linda knows here bible better than certain bro's here on the forum.

I thought you called WOH bro?

 

[Frogster]

haha... love the typo.

hehehe

 

[Frogster]

I thought you called WOH bro?

who can tell, this thread is fast, but it's true, linda knows here bible better than bro's here do...

 

[B-74]

who can tell, this thread is fast, but it's true, linda knows here bible better than bro's here do...

She knows it as well as you do bro.

 

[Lion King]

works of law are used universally by paul, with Abraham, and david, jew and gentile, both in rom 4, romans 2;14-15, and the titus quote, and ephesians, not by works, and they were never under mosaic works anyway.


but...but..the issue is not that..


ok, we know we want to do good works, but u try to fuse them to salvation, using works sanctification. Same as in galatia...a little leaven of 5;9...said with all due respect.

again, yes, works are great, but they don't sanctify, or justify.

Yes, we are also justified by WORKS (I'm not talking about the works of the Law). So says the Scriptures:

You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

_ _ _ _

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’ Revelation 3:1-6

_ _ _ _

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11

_ _ _ _

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23

_ _ _ _


THE FINAL JUDGEMENT

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ Matthew 25:34-36

vs

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ Matthew 25:41-44

I dunno about you, but that does sure look like we will all be judged according to our WORKS.

 

[Lindas Place]

Praise The Lord! God is good!

He sure is...

 

[Albion]

I dunno about you, but that does sure look like we will all be judged according to our WORKS.

It might be that our works will be judged. In fact, I am led to believe that they will be. However, this doesn't mean that they affect our salvation.

 

[Lindas Place]

She knows it as well as you do bro.

I disagree with this.. but I appreciate the compliment...

 

[God's Word]

works of law are used universally by paul, with Abraham, and david, jew and gentile, both in rom 4, romans 2;14-15, and the titus quote, and ephesians, not by works, and they were never under mosaic works anyway.

In the Titus quote, CLEARLY, part of the "works" of which Paul spoke were NOT "works of the law". I mean, c'mon, of all people, you should recognize that. Paul told CHRISTIANS to CONSTANTLY AFFIRM that we should MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. Are you suggesting that Paul told CHRISTIANS to CONSTANTLY AFFIRM to MAINTAIN THE WORKS OF THE LAW? You know better than that. Paul CLEARLY made distinctions between different types of "works" in his epistles...even as I've already documented from Ephesians 2:8-10. IOW, on the one hand, "works of the law" don't save us, yet, on the other hand, God has called us unto GOOD WORKS which He before ordained that we should walk in them.

but...but..the issue is not that..


ok, we know we want to do good works, but u try to fuse them to salvation, using works sanctification. Same as in galatia...a little leaven of 5;9...said with all due respect.

again, yes, works are great, but they don't sanctify, or justify.

Actually, unlike some of you, I'm merely considering the entire counsel of God and not just cherry-picking what is palatable to me.

Who commanded us to be holy as God is holy (I Peter 1:15-16)? Me or God?

Who called us unto holiness and said that we despise Him if we despise such a call (I Thessalonians 4:7-8)? Me or God?

Who tells us to purify ourselves even as He is pure (I John 3:3)? Me or God?

Who tells us to cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (II Corinthians 7:1)? Me or God?

Who tells us to DO RIGHTEOUSNESS, even as He is righteous (I John 3:7)? Me or God?

Shall I go on? I honestly believe that some of you have no idea whatsoever as to what A COVENANT is. It's an agreement BETWEEN TWO PARTIES. We have our part to do and God has given us the necessary means by which to do it. If you've got a quarrel against such truths, friend, then your quarrel is with God and not with me.

Anyhow, James said:

James 2:14-26

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? CAN FAITH SAVE HIM? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? EVEN SO FAITH, IF IT HATH NOT WORKS, IS DEAD, BEING ALONE. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, AND I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY MY WORKS. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. BUT WILT THOU KNOW, O VAIN MAN, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? WAS NOT ABRAHAM OUR FATHER JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, WHEN HE HAD OFFERED ISAAC HIS SON UPON THE ALTAR? SEEST THOU HOW FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, AND BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? AND THE SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED WHICH SAITH, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: AND HE WAS CALLED THE FRIEND OF GOD. YE SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY. LIKEWISE ALSO WAS NOT RAHAB THE HARLOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS WHEN SHE HAD RECEIVED THE MESSENGERS, AND HAD SENT THEM OUT ANOTHER WAY? FOR AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, SO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO."

I mean, c'mon, can it get any plainer/clearer than that? The scripture which says "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6) WAS NOT FULFILLED UNTIL FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS. It's right there before your very eyes. Will/can you see it?

 

[Lindas Place]

It might be that our works will be judged. In fact, I am led to believe that they will be. However, this doesn't mean that they affect our salvation.

Agree that's what the bible say's...

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

 

[Frogster]

Yes, we are also justified by WORKS (I'm not talking about the works of the Law). So says the Scriptures:

You see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. James 2:24

_ _ _ _

“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,

‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.

“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’ Revelation 3:1-6

_ _ _ _

But in accordance with your hardness and your impenitent heart you are treasuring up for yourself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God. Romans 2:5-11

_ _ _ _

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Matthew 7:21-23

_ _ _ _


THE FINAL JUDGEMENT

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ Matthew 25:34-36

vs

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’ Matthew 25:41-44

I dunno about you, but that does sure look like we will all be judged according to our WORKS.

dude..was revelation teaching about the how of it all?

james meant it literally?

then scripture does not jive, because you can't post 1 verse from all of paul, where he was laying down doctrine, to prove your point, the best u can do is to strain at a verse that may indicate something, sure, we do good works, evil people do bad works, duh..but you got no red meat of any substance, to fuse works santification, or justification by works, when in fact, all paul wrote goes against this.

Give us clear doctrine from Paul...and do it contextually..

no, I did not steal a car today, but that is not why i was put into christ, romans 5-6.

 

[B-74]

Yes, we are also justified by WORKS (I'm not talking about the works of the Law). So says the Scriptures:

What are works of the law? Circumcision or the law that defines Gods will? I would say if we are justified by works, then we are justified by doing all of Gods will. If that is, we are justified by any works at all. Surely no one can boast in anything, but there is no distinction between doing one good work and another, Gods will is Gods will, whether it be charity or abstinence. Both are love, love for God and man. But which commandment is the greatest? God commanded we love Him and our neighbor, so i would say all law hangs on the greatest commandment first, and the second greatest commandment last. IMO.

Jas 4:5 Do ye think that the scripture saith in vain, The spirit that dwelleth in us lusteth to envy?

Eph 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. 20 But ye have not so learned Christ; 21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus: 22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts; 23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind; 24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. 25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another. 26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath: 27 Neither give place to the devil. 28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth. 29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers. 30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. 31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice: 32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

 

[Whisper of Hope]

works of law are used universally by paul, with Abraham, and david, jew and gentile, both in rom 4, romans 2;14-15, and the titus quote, and ephesians, not by works, and they were never under mosaic works anyway.


but...but..the issue is not that..


ok, we know we want to do good works, but u try to fuse them to salvation, using works sanctification. Same as in galatia...a little leaven of 5;9...said with all due respect.

again, yes, works are great, but they don't sanctify, or justify.

Galatians 2:19-20: "19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.”

Galatians 3:1-9: "1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? 5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” 7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.” 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham."

Galatians 3:19-25: "19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor."

1 Timothy 1:8-11: "8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust."

 

[someguy14]

Excellent verse in 1 Timothy 1:8-11. Very fitting for thread.

 

[Frogster]

In the Titus quote, CLEARLY, part of the "works" of which Paul spoke were NOT "works of the law". I mean, c'mon, of all people, you should recognize that. Paul told CHRISTIANS to CONSTANTLY AFFIRM that we should MAINTAIN GOOD WORKS. Are you suggesting that Paul told CHRISTIANS to CONSTANTLY AFFIRM to MAINTAIN THE WORKS OF THE LAW? You know better than that. Paul CLEARLY made distinctions between different types of "works" in his epistles...even as I've already documented from Ephesians 2:8-10. IOW, on the one hand, "works of the law" don't save us, yet, on the other hand, God has called us unto GOOD WORKS which He before ordained that we should walk in them.



Actually, unlike some of you, I'm merely considering the entire counsel of God and not just cherry-picking what is palatable to me.

Who commanded us to be holy as God is holy (I Peter 1:15-16)? Me or God?

Who called us unto holiness and said that we despise Him if we despise such a call (I Thessalonians 4:7-8)? Me or God?

Who tells us to purify ourselves even as He is pure (I John 3:3)? Me or God?

Who tells us to cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God (II Corinthians 7:1)? Me or God?

Who tells us to DO RIGHTEOUSNESS, even as He is righteous (I John 3:7)? Me or God?

Shall I go on? I honestly believe that some of you have no idea whatsoever as to what A COVENANT is. It's an agreement BETWEEN TWO PARTIES. We have our part to do and God has given us the necessary means by which to do it. If you've got a quarrel against such truths, friend, then your quarrel is with God and not with me.

Anyhow, James said:

James 2:14-26

"What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? CAN FAITH SAVE HIM? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? EVEN SO FAITH, IF IT HATH NOT WORKS, IS DEAD, BEING ALONE. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, AND I WILL SHEW THEE MY FAITH BY MY WORKS. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. BUT WILT THOU KNOW, O VAIN MAN, THAT FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD? WAS NOT ABRAHAM OUR FATHER JUSTIFIED BY WORKS, WHEN HE HAD OFFERED ISAAC HIS SON UPON THE ALTAR? SEEST THOU HOW FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS, AND BY WORKS WAS FAITH MADE PERFECT? AND THE SCRIPTURE WAS FULFILLED WHICH SAITH, ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS IMPUTED UNTO HIM FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS: AND HE WAS CALLED THE FRIEND OF GOD. YE SEE THEN HOW THAT BY WORKS A MAN IS JUSTIFIED, AND NOT BY FAITH ONLY. LIKEWISE ALSO WAS NOT RAHAB THE HARLOT JUSTIFIED BY WORKS WHEN SHE HAD RECEIVED THE MESSENGERS, AND HAD SENT THEM OUT ANOTHER WAY? FOR AS THE BODY WITHOUT THE SPIRIT IS DEAD, SO FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO."

I mean, c'mon, can it get any plainer/clearer than that? The scripture which says "Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6) WAS NOT FULFILLED UNTIL FAITH WROUGHT WITH HIS WORKS. It's right there before your very eyes. Will/can you see it?

but when it is all said and done, the only we were were made holy, is to be taken out of unholy adam, and put into holy Jesus romans 5, all by his resurrection, that is the heart of romans 6, and in no way, can you put works in the resurrection power bro..

unless u can, i would like to hear it.

see what you do, is strain at extraneous text, text that indicates something, sure, who wants to steal? but the answer in the clear doctrine of rom 6. THE HOW of it all, was the cross and resurrection, and only that, he who died is free from sin 6;7, and that had nothing to do with any works, of any kind, by anyone.

prove me worng, using clear teaching, on the central issue, the cross.

no, we don't want to steal..duh....

can we get past that now? no, we don't want to steal...no...