Is belief enough to be saved?

[Montalban]

Does our Heavenly Father, or for that matter, even our earthly fathers ask our permission to discipline us?

We 'discipline' ourselves. When we reject God we separate ourselves from him.

We Orthodox say that the 'Gates of Hell are bolted shut from the inside"

 

[Montalban]

Works are not automatic we must choose to do them and without them no faith is there.

That's right. We must continue to exhibit our free will and accept God. We do this by several ways of Godly works, including prayers, fasting etc.

 

[Lindas Place]

We 'discipline' ourselves. When we reject God we separate ourselves from him.

We Orthodox say that the 'Gates of Hell are bolted shut from the inside"

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father? If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons. Hebrews 12:7-8

 

[St_Worm2]

Here is the Reformed position from the man himself, so to speak (if this has already been posted, and it probably has, I apologize for the repetition).

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone." John Calvin
​

 

[Keachian]

Works are not automatic we must choose to do them and without them no faith is there.

I don't think it is either the works or the faith that in the end justify us but the grace without which anything we try to achieve are like dirty rags.

 

[whitetiger1]

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:24

 

[Keachian]

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

James 2:24

Can't we then fall into the same sort of trap as the Pharisees did? Seeing our justification as something that we have earned and so look down on those whom we have thought of as not doing the things needed for that justification?

 

[daydreamergurl15]

Can't we then fall into the same sort of trap as the Pharisees did? Seeing our justification as something that we have earned and so look down on those whom we have thought of as not doing the things needed for that justification?

Are justification and salvation the same thing?

 

[Keachian]

Are justification and salvation the same thing?

I don't believe they are

 

[Montalban]

I don't think it is either the works or the faith that in the end justify us but the grace without which anything we try to achieve are like dirty rags.

Neither by themselves are enough

 

[Montalban]

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son is not disciplined by his father?If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you are illegitimate children and not true sons.Hebrews 12:7-8

A lot of people mistake anthropomorphisms as literal truths.

Some people need to picture God as a child might a parent - one ready to scold

Others have a more 'mature' view of God

1 Corinthians 3:2
I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

 

[daydreamergurl15]

I don't believe they are

What's the difference?

 

[Habakk]

I don't think it is either the works or the faith that in the end justify us but the grace without which anything we try to achieve are like dirty rags.

There are some overriding principles, grace is one of them, and mercy is another. Without the precursors of grace and mercy we would have only judgement. The scripture tells us that even our faith is a gift from God and that is one reason why we need to show works by our faith because it is a working out of God’s gift in our lives in an effectual way.

Salvation needs to be manifest and demonstrated as the power of the cross in our lives. God uses works to effect the working of our faith. It’s like batteries in a flashlight in that a flashlight may function by batteries alone but if they are not placed in the flashlight and the flashlight is not turned on (works) then the batteries although being the sole power has no function. Faith (in the cross) is the ONLY power by which we are saved but it is perfected through works in the process of us being saved.

 

[greatdivide46]

What's the difference?

Here's the way I understand the difference between justification and salvation.

Salvation includes justification but the terms are not synonymous.

Justification takes care of the penalty of our sin. Justification says we don't have to pay the penalty. But justification does not say we are innocent. We are still guilty but the penalty has already been paid. Something else has to happen for us to be declared innocent. I believe that something else is sanctification. I could be wrong on that because I haven't studied up on sanctification. I just know that justification, having the penalty paid for our sin, is not the same thing as being declared not guilty.

 

[Lindas Place]

A lot of people mistake anthropomorphisms as literal truths.

Some people need to picture God as a child might a parent - one ready to scold

Others have a more 'mature' view of God

1 Corinthians 3:2
I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

do or did you picture your parents as - one ready to scold?

 

[whitetiger1]

Can't we then fall into the same sort of trap as the Pharisees did? Seeing our justification as something that we have earned and so look down on those whom we have thought of as not doing the things needed for that justification?

As humans we can do anything. That still doesn't negate the fact that mere belief is not enough Christ said if we love him we will do as He commands and in James He reiterates that it's not just belief. Through out we are commanded to do good works for that day.


Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me, naked and you clothed me, ill and you cared for me, in prison and you visited me.

Matt 25:34-36

We are saved by Grace through Faith but not alone, if we don't do works as commended there is no place for us no reward. If you get invited to let's say a party and you are required to bring something that does not mean you got into the party on your own it does mean you have an obligation to meet and if you do not than you do not get to partake in the party.


Of the ten virgins five did as the were suppose and had oil in their lamps while waiting for the bridegroom and the other five just assumed that their belief was enough so did not fill up their lamps. When those five realized they needed oil and and that they should have worked to get it they missed out trying to get more.


It is not just enough to have belief, we must also prove it.

 

[Lindas Place]

but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Romans 9:31-33

 

[Lindas Place]

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED,
but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

 

[whitetiger1]

but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame." Romans 9:31-33

Of course we are saved by God's Grace and not through the works of the law. Yet we must do good works as Christ commands us lest we not be invited in to His home as He has told us in Matthew 25:34-36. He tells us the results of just sitting around and yelling "I am saved" without doing anything:

Then he will say to those on his left,

Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels! I was hungry but you would not feed me, thirsty but you would not give me a drink; I was a stranger but you would not welcome me in your homes, naked but you would not clothe me; I was sick and in prison but you would not take care of me.

Then they will answer him,
When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we would not help you? The King will reply,
I tell you, whenever you refused to help one of these least important ones, you refused to help me. These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life.


Matt 25:41-46

his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work.
If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward.
If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED,
but only as one escaping through the flames. 1 Corinthians 3 13-15

Yes, Purgatory which could be a place or happen in a blink of the eye. Not all works we do are good but those that are not will be burned away, that does not mean one says a simple pray and sits on their collective laurels because now they will go to heaven. Christ has told us how by not mere belief alone.

 

[Lindas Place]

Of course we are saved by God's Grace and not through the works of the law. Yet we must do good works as Christ commands us lest we not be invited in to His home as He has told us in Matthew 25:34-36. He tells us the results of just sitting around and yelling "I am saved" without doing anything:

Then he will say to those on his left,

Away from me, you that are under God's curse! Away to the eternal fire which has been prepared for the Devil and his angels! I was hungry but you would not feed me, thirsty but you would not give me a drink; I was a stranger but you would not welcome me in your homes, naked but you would not clothe me; I was sick and in prison but you would not take care of me.

Then they will answer him,
When, Lord, did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and we would not help you? The King will reply,
I tell you, whenever you refused to help one of these least important ones, you refused to help me. These, then, will be sent off to eternal punishment, but the righteous will go to eternal life.


Matt 25:41-46




Yes, Purgatory which could be a place or happen in a blink of the eye. Not all works we do are good but those that are not will be burned away, that does not mean one says a simple pray and sits on their collective laurels because now they will go to heaven. Christ has told us how by not mere belief alone.

Here's the difference between the cursed and the blessed...

The cursed..

Galatians 3
10 All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."
11 Clearly no one is justified before God by the law; because, "The righteous will live by faith."
12 The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."
13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."
14 He redeemed us in order that the blessing given to Abraham might come to the Gentiles through Christ Jesus, so that by faith we might receive the promise of the Spirit.;

the Blessed...

Romans 4:4-8
Now when a man WORKS, his wages ARE NOT credited to him as A GIFT, but as an obligation.
However, TO THE MAN WHO DOES NOT WORK but trusts God who justifies the wicked, HIS FAITH IS CREDITED AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.
DAVID SAYS THE SAME THING when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom GOD CREDITS RIGHTEOUSNESS APART FROM WORKS:
"Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man whose sin the Lord will never count against him."