Is being Wiccan moral?

[SquareC]

Whitehorse has consistently failed to give any substantive and objective evidence for his claim of authority, while couching her retorts in unreasonable demands to others ("please quote and respond to everything I've said in the last 75 pages or I won't answer your question") while failing to apply the same demands to herself. She demands that others begin the debate by acknowledgeing the supposed authority of the bible and refuses to substantiate that authority with objective evidence.

Whitehorse talks prettily, but says nothing. Which is why most of us have given up trying to engage her in reasonable debate. One can only go around in the same circles with a person who refuses to debate before it becomes tiresome and futile.

We've stopped playing the Whitehorse game. If you are impressed by the meaningless rhetoric, perhaps it's because it's what you want to hear?

My thoughts exactly.

 

[transientlife]

I think it's easier to stay comfortable in what you believe in and agree easily with those that just propogate your own views. It seems much harder to step outside yourself and your personal beliefs to evaluate ones that are either slightly or even drastically different. Even harder to do it and maintain an objective viewpoint.

OH- and by the way...MsJones, I just love your signature line!

 

[transientlife]

885 posts so far more or less discussing the morality of being Wiccan. Those who would say Wicca is immoral tend to use Christianity as the moral yardstick, and yet we have never even taken a cursory glance at the morality of Christianity.

I see your point for this one...if you think about it, not everyone is Christian, but you are in some respects measuring with it. (Though I think some of the basic ideas, kindness, taking no life, etc. - the kind of 'common sense' morals, if ya know what I mean are not exclusive to Christianity, but I digress) So wouldn't it be kind of like using the laws of say, France or China, perhaps, in the United States, when there are some things legal here that would be illegal over there?

1. Christians do not accept responsibility for thier actions, instead they expect the sacrifice of another to atone for thier mistakes.

I'm sure some believe that --- but I think we still maintain some personal responsibility for our actions. I know in my home-life if I broke my mom's rule, Jesus' sacrifice didn't save me from getting my butt whooped

2. Christians worship a God who admits to being jelouse of other Gods and who gains followers by threatening those who do accept him with seperation from those they love. Those who do not buy into the fear are threatened with eternal damnation.

3. Christainas fail to acknowledge the sacredness of all life.

I'm sure there are those that do not have respect for the sacredness of life. Are they only the Christians though?

4. Most Christians fail to honor beliefs differant from thier own.

Well at least here you didn't generalize I'm just kidding! In the Bible you are not to believe in any other God but THE God...sure, great idea, but to live in our multi-everything world today, you may not have to "honor" perse, but at least recognize other beliefs do exist and recognize that people will believe those beliefs and not yours, and outside of introducing them to your beliefs, there's not much you can do about it. I think we all need tolerance of some level, but that's just this 'lost' Christians opinion

There's your moral religion.

Religion is a great concept, sometimes abused and exploited for human gain.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Thanks, Sola Scriptura. Let's not forget that you've taught me much. This is a gift that always gives! Thank you for glorifying our Lord by standing up for the truth and for blessing me with your kind words. It's a beautiful gesture and I think it testifies to the kindness that dwells within, flowing from the throneroom of our King, Jesus Christ.

I also want to thank Doulos for his excellent posts, seasoned with grace and truth. A true brother in the Lord.

More answers later-guests arriving soon.

 

[ACougar]

Before I go any further i think it's important to point out that I'm a Unitarian Universalist as well as a Wiccan. I accept that most if not all religions are touched by the Divine and I'll do my best to tempor my critisism with respect.

Your point regarding morality and differant religions is well taken, each religion measures morality with a differant yardstick. In order to talk about something as abstract as morality however we are forced to adapt some sort of yardstick, in China Buddhism might make since, in India Hinduism, in Saudi Arabia Islam and in the United States Christianity. This will of course result in a distorted perception of morality for those who are not adherants of the majority religion, however some balance/improved perspective/understanding might be regained by comparing the morality of the majority religion to that of minority religions.

I see your point for this one...if you think about it, not everyone is Christian, but you are in some respects measuring with it. (Though I think some of the basic ideas, kindness, taking no life, etc. - the kind of 'common sense' morals, if ya know what I mean are not exclusive to Christianity, but I digress) So wouldn't it be kind of like using the laws of say, France or China, perhaps, in the United States, when there are some things legal here that would be illegal over there?

I'm sure some believe that --- but I think we still maintain some personal responsibility for our actions. I know in my home-life if I broke my mom's rule, Jesus' sacrifice didn't save me from getting my butt whooped

That is a good point, however it begs the question... You broke the rules, you suffered a penalty... you hopefuly learned from your mistake and grew wiser. What need is/was there for sin? It's a useless concept that only serves to empower church and state.

I'm sure there are those that do not have respect for the sacredness of life. Are they only the Christians though?

Of course not. I was refering more to support of the death penalty and lack of support for the environment among most Christians I know.

Well at least here you didn't generalize I'm just kidding! In the Bible you are not to believe in any other God but THE God...sure, great idea, but to live in our multi-everything world today, you may not have to "honor" perse, but at least recognize other beliefs do exist and recognize that people will believe those beliefs and not yours, and outside of introducing them to your beliefs, there's not much you can do about it. I think we all need tolerance of some level, but that's just this 'lost' Christians opinion

Religion is a great concept, sometimes abused and exploited for human gain.

I seem to remember reading about Peter and/or Paul who while visiting some Greek city found a temple or shrine to the Unknown God. They used the opportunity to promote thier beliefs without attacking the beliefs of others if I remember correctly. Perhaps it was nothing more than an instict for survival, however I always prefered to see it as a sign of respect... if not for Pagan religion, at least for those who practiced Pagan religion.

The purpose of religion in my opinion is to help bring us closer and/or make us more aware of the Divine. Using it for any other purpose is ussually unwise.

 

[transientlife]

Oh I think you bring up very good points in your posts, I was just commenting on your commentary

Before I go any further i think it's important to point out that I'm a Unitarian Universalist as well as a Wiccan. I accept that most if not all religions are touched by the Divine and I'll do my best to tempor my critisism with respect.

I think you do a fine job of it.

Your point regarding morality and differant religions is well taken, each religion measures morality with a differant yardstick. In order to talk about something as abstract as morality however we are forced to adapt some sort of yardstick, in China Buddhism might make since, in India Hinduism, in Saudi Arabia Islam and in the United States Christianity. This will of course result in a distorted perception of morality for those who are not adherants of the majority religion, however some balance/improved perspective/understanding might be regained by comparing the morality of the majority religion to that of minority religions.

I was trying to translate your point into my own words, I hope I did a sufficient job.

That is a good point, however it begs the question... You broke the rules, you suffered a penalty... you hopefuly learned from your mistake and grew wiser. What need is/was there for sin? It's a useless concept that only serves to empower church and state.

More often than not I learned and left childhood and adolescence with a minimal amount of grey hairs on my mom's head. If I do say so myself What need is there for sin? Good question. On first thought I would say it is used as a differentiation between what is pleasing to God and what is not.

Of course not. I was refering more to support of the death penalty and lack of support for the environment among most Christians I know.

Ahhh I gotcha now.

I seem to remember reading about Peter and/or Paul who while visiting some Greek city found a temple or shrine to the Unknown God. They used the opportunity to promote thier beliefs without attacking the beliefs of others if I remember correctly. Perhaps it was nothing more than an instict for survival, however I always prefered to see it as a sign of respect... if not for Pagan religion, at least for those who practiced Pagan religion.

It would fare as a great example to all if that is the case (hopefully it is!)

The purpose of religion in my opinion is to help bring us closer and/or make us more aware of the Divine. Using it for any other purpose is ussually unwise.

No disagreement there!

 

[ACougar]

I think this part of Christianity is only in regards to SIN in the sense of humanity willfully choosing to live in something other than in total dependence on their God (I.E. original sin) and not about sin in the sense of breaking all the many unworkable rules in their little book.



I will agree there seems to be a general lack of self-responsibility in the traditional Christian moral system. Confession seems all to easy and there is always the devil to blame.

It seems to be a get out of jail free card, and I'm no fan of get out of jail free cards. Justice, no more.. no less administered gently and with love.

Eternal damnation is threatened for a lot of reasons.

I don't see how this is very diferant from a Parent who threatens thier children with death when they disobey.

One thing I have noticed is that those Christians who not only accept the idea of eternal damnation but seem to take pleasure in announcing just who is and who is not eternally damned always view that such damnation is for other people, never for themselves or for those who belong to their particular sect/cult.

I disagree, I have seen too many who live in fear that they shall lose those they love to eternal damnation, not to mention those who are forever doubting themselves and thier own salvation. Sheer terror that saddens me deeply.

I have many times noted before that the fundamentalist Christian worldview is one that glorifies humans. According to their creation myth human begins are given domain over nature, the earth, all the animals and ordered to subdue it clearly making human being supernatural (above nature) creatures.

I have to give credit to some Christians who understand that dominion to be a sacred trust. While were not in full agreement regarding our relationship with nature, at least were both struggling to presenve that which our society seems bent on destroying.

 

[transientlife]

You're right ACougar. Perhaps it's how you define dominion. We are God's chosen creation or somesuch term as that, given dominion over all of the animals of the earth so as to take care of them?

 

[Sola Scriptura]

Whitehorse has consistently failed to give any substantive and objective evidence for his claim of authority,...We've stopped playing the Whitehorse game. If you are impressed by the meaningless rhetoric, perhaps it's because it's what you want to hear?[/QUOTE]

Spoken by a Celtic Witch. And by the way cannot it be that we may be tired of being outwitted continously ? Just a thought.


_____________________________________________________________
"As to homosexuality making an untenible society please check out the Spartans...Or even the Roman and Greek societies where the love of a beautiful lad was the purest love around ...while you may not be happy about it, there are millions and millions of Americans who do not find such "acts"disgusting." -mpshiel-

"I have a few 18+ movies in my DVD collection. Actually I think "Better than Chocolate"
(available at most internet retailers near you) is an 18 plus..." -mpshiel-

 

[Sola Scriptura]

I think it's easier to stay comfortable in what you believe in and agree easily with those that just propogate your own views. It seems much harder to step outside yourself and your personal beliefs to evaluate ones that are either slightly or even drastically different. Even harder to do it and maintain an objective viewpoint.

Well said. This applies pretty well to Havoc. Hey gang


_____________________________________________________________
"As to homosexuality making an untenible society please check out the Spartans...Or even the Roman and Greek societies where the love of a beautiful lad was the purest love around ...while you may not be happy about it, there are millions and millions of Americans who do not find such "acts"disgusting." -mpshiel-

"I have a few 18+ movies in my DVD collection. Actually I think "Better than Chocolate"
(available at most internet retailers near you) is an 18 plus..." -mpshiel-

 

[Sola Scriptura]

It seems to be a get out of jail free card, and I'm no fan of get out of jail free cards...



I don't see how this is very diferant from a Parent who threatens thier children with death when they disobey.

Can anyone see two mouths uttering two contrary criticisms. Your permissive your not permissive. Get out of jail free card...never get out of jail free card. Its too lenient its too harsh. Its bad because its good; its good but bad because its too good but bad because overall its really bad! Seriously Im thinking maybe some ocean ambiance, waves gently pursuing the dusky shore. A warm breeze and a cooler, warm blanket and some toasty seafood as the moon sets on the horizon will help our friend settle his thoughts and fuzzy up with a little clarity.

_____________________________________________________________
"As to homosexuality making an untenible society please check out the Spartans...Or even the Roman and Greek societies where the love of a beautiful lad was the purest love around ...while you may not be happy about it, there are millions and millions of Americans who do not find such "acts"disgusting." -mpshiel-

"I have a few 18+ movies in my DVD collection. Actually I think "Better than Chocolate"
(available at most internet retailers near you) is an 18 plus..." -mpshiel-

 

[ACougar]

Can anyone see two mouths uttering two contrary criticisms. Your permissive your not permissive. Get out of jail free card...never get out of jail free card. Its too lenient its too harsh. Its bad because its good; its good but bad because its too good but bad because overall its really bad! Seriously Im thinking maybe some ocean ambiance, waves gently pursuing the dusky shore. A warm breeze and a cooler, warm blanket and some toasty seafood as the moon sets on the horizon will help our friend settle his thoughts and fuzzy up with a little clarity.

As a loving Parent there are occasions when I must administer punishment, the purpose of the punishment however is to teach not to torment and destroy. There is a profound and fundamental differance. One child can not learn a lesson for the other, torturing the one to punish the other is also wrong in my eyes. To live as Jesus lived is well and good, to invoke his death as payment for petty crimes that you commited makes no sense, it does not satisfy justice, it does not restore balance, nor does it teach the perpetrator anything of value.

Bob commits armed robbery and kills someone, begs for forgiveness and all is forgotten. Joe runs a red light and is sumarily executed because he accepted responsibility for his actions. Neither is appropriate, both are wrong in my opinion. I would see Joe pay a fine for his actions and Bob go to jail for 40 years instead.

 

[Havoc]

Whitehorse has consistently failed to give any substantive and objective evidence for his claim of authority,...We've stopped playing the Whitehorse game. If you are impressed by the meaningless rhetoric, perhaps it's because it's what you want to hear?[/QUOTE]

Spoken by a Celtic Witch. And by the way cannot it be that we may be tired of being outwitted continously ? Just a thought.

Yes it was spoken by a Celtic Witch. What is that comment supposed to be intimating?

 

[Havoc]

Well said. This applies pretty well to Havoc. Hey gang

Not really. I step out of my own belief zone in order to consider other religions points of view all the time.

I'm also comfortable enough in my own faith that I don't have to pretend that speculation is proof and that suppositions are fact. I'm perfectly aware that my religion cannot be proven true and perfectly ok with believeing that it is true. I don't have to make ridiculous claims of absolute truth, or tell other people their religious concepts are completly false just to artificially prop up my faith. I don't have to use circular arguements and ingenuine debate to convince myself that my religion cannot be challenged by reason.

So no, I don't see how that description fits me very well. It does fit some people here quite well though...

 

[transientlife]

Well said. This applies pretty well to Havoc. Hey gang

Thanks Sola (about time you agree with me on something ) but I intended it as a generalized statement.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

As a loving Parent there are occasions when I must administer punishment, the purpose of the punishment however is to teach not to torment and destroy. There is a profound and fundamental differance. One child can not learn a lesson for the other, torturing the one to punish the other is also wrong in my eyes. To live as Jesus lived is well and good, to invoke his death as payment for petty crimes that you commited makes no sense, it does not satisfy justice, it does not restore balance, nor does it teach the perpetrator anything of value.

Bob commits armed robbery and kills someone, begs for forgiveness and all is forgotten. Joe runs a red light and is sumarily executed because he accepted responsibility for his actions. Neither is appropriate, both are wrong in my opinion. I would see Joe pay a fine for his actions and Bob go to jail for 40 years instead.

First of all, God is God. That needs to be remebered. He isn't a man; we're all sublect to both laws and flaws. God is the Sovereign of the Universe.

But I think human beings have a harder time making that distinction because in reality, man wants to be god and hence sets himself up as god. He makes his own rules and lives according to what pleases him. Man sweeps under the rug the fact that he has no right to this claim. He was born without having any say, and he will be judged by God, without having any say.

God's rules are good rules. We're not in a position to judge Him.

By age two, a normal human being will have acquired a sense of Object Permanence in his cognitive development. This is the idea that an object that is out of view still exists. This is where a parent will show the child a toy, then hide it behind his back, and the child will now begin looking for the toy, realizing it still exists even if he can't see it. Most children actually learn this much earlier, around six to nine months, but in order to be comsidered normal, it is to be grasped no later than age two.

But somehow the desire for man to be his own god is so strong, that man will ignore all the evidence in the world, accepting anything, even nothing, before accepting the truth. This, unless the Spirit of God intervenes.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Not really. I step out of my own belief zone in order to consider other religions points of view all the time.

I'm also comfortable enough in my own faith that I don't have to pretend that speculation is proof and that suppositions are fact. I'm perfectly aware that my religion cannot be proven true and perfectly ok with believeing that it is true. I don't have to make ridiculous claims of absolute truth, or tell other people their religious concepts are completly false just to artificially prop up my faith. I don't have to use circular arguements and ingenuine debate to convince myself that my religion cannot be challenged by reason.

So no, I don't see how that description fits me very well. It does fit some people here quite well though...

I'm seeing no evidence of this. I see a guy who wants to be his own authority, yet strangely, never expresses his own ideas.

We all know wicca isn't Christianity with the names changed.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Yes it was spoken by a Celtic Witch. What is that comment supposed to be intimating?

Now you're denying your bias? You say I have no substance or content, supposing, I guess, that no one has been reading any of the posts. If you assume they have been, I can't think of a worse way to insult people's intelligence. You basically just take everything people say about Christianity and apply it to your own religion. You simply say it back, not caring whether it is true, or seems true, or is even credible. How long are we supposed to care?

Then, after being verbally abusive to pretty much anyone who doesn't agree with you, you land yourself the high honor of being put on the ignore list, and then you say you've given up.

Come on, Havoc. Don't you have any ideas of your own?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Whitehorse has consistently failed to give any substantive and objective evidence for his claim of authority, while couching her retorts in unreasonable demands to others ("please quote and respond to everything I've said in the last 75 pages or I won't answer your question") while failing to apply the same demands to herself. She demands that others begin the debate by acknowledgeing the supposed authority of the bible and refuses to substantiate that authority with objective evidence.

Whitehorse talks prettily, but says nothing. Which is why most of us have given up trying to engage her in reasonable debate. One can only go around in the same circles with a person who refuses to debate before it becomes tiresome and futile.

We've stopped playing the Whitehorse game. If you are impressed by the meaningless rhetoric, perhaps it's because it's what you want to hear?

I invite you again to refute something, anything, that I've said. You are your own authority. That's the rule of wicca. Do whatever you please. Since you have never seen God, you cannot be the authority on God. Only God can be, and we know it through what he has revealed. But you steadfastly refuse to come to grips with this issue. You just ask for proof where proof has already been provided, and then you expect me to repeat the same thing endlessly. Then, after telling me to repeat it endlessly for your own unwillingness (or inability) to refute the evidence, you just cover your eyes and say there is no evidence. And then you tell me my reasoning is circular.

Where is this reasonable debate you're talking about?

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

As an afterthought, I was always puzzled as to why being of the Wiccan faith is even a question of morality. I don't see how one's choice of faith makes them moral or immoral. It's what you do with your faith that defines whether you're moral or immoral. I'll take the beautiful words of The Wiccan Rede over the hellfire and brimstone of the Good Book any day of the week. How can anyone, Christian or not, condemn a faith that is based on love and respect for all living things and (just like the principles of the bible) believes that whatever you do in life, good or bad, will come back to you threefold?

It isn't based on love. It's based on self-will. It sounds good initially, but when you think about it, self-will is the opposite of love. Especially when it usurps the throne of God.

I mean, have you seen the love just pouring out here?