Is being Wiccan moral?

[transientlife]

Jesus reveals to us where the truth is to be found. Here is the way to avoid all error:

Matthew 22:9

22:29Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.

This line is in reference to a group of Jews who claim no resurrection after death. What were you saying about context again? I'm not Jewish, nor do I deny resurrection. Or are you throwing me a curveball? Are the two mutually exclusive? Can you know most of the scriptures and definitely know the power of God and be considered alright? To err is human, and you yourself said it takes a loooooooong time to know the scriptures, so I think it is safe to say we all make mistakes.

Do you feel the Lord agrees with you? THis returns us to the essential question. Do you believe that the Bible is the word of God?

How many times must I repeat that I believe the Bible is the word of God? Are you old enough to be senile yet? I'm just kidding.
I will never know for certain how much or how little the Lord agrees with me. The best I can do is follow his words (and his two greatest commandments, which all others are based on : Love the Lord God with all your heart, all your soul and all your mind, and love thy neighbor as thyself") to the best of my ability and knowledge, and hope for a pleasant, favorable outcome.

Well, this is a forum for willing parties. Unwilling parties will not post. If you don't know what Jesus taught, then how do you know what His will is? How can you say to someone that you're done, so it's enough? Simply unsubscribe and let the willing continue in conversation.

I'm not referring to just 'forum life', but 'real life' as well.

Yes-the food is the proper context. But this has nothing to do with core doctrines. Here is another example to qualify the one you cited. It regards the testimony given by the apostles as revealed in scripture:

1 John 4:6

4:6We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Like I said, not to bicker over TRIVIAL things. Core doctrine doesn't sound like a trivial subject, does it?

 

[transientlife]

I don't understand what what you mean.

Friends....those that are not spiritually minded...those that hold materialistic and world views over faith.

 

[transientlife]

So please give your exegesis.

It's a personal observation, I need not exegize But really, I do think some people take teaching God's word as like a game show where whoever converts the most souls wins...

Hm. You're debating with Christians and you still haven't answered whether or not you believe the Bible is God's word.

What's the correlation between maintaining courtesy and believing or not believing the Bible is God's word? Either way, I thought I'd answered that numerous times already --- maybe I answered it in my head and didn't type it...or maybe even if I said I did you'd doubt me and we'd be right back to where we started.

You say you believe in Jesus. Really? Because this is what He taught.

John 14:6

14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Yes, he is. Did I deny that? No. Next?

John 15:1015:10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Greatest Commandments:
Love thy Lord God with all your heart, your soul and your mind - check
Love thy neighbor as thyself - check
work in progress on the rest...

Exodus 20:1-620:1And God spake all these words, saying, 20:2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

No denial there.

20:3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

I haven't, and I don't. Next?

 

[transientlife]

20:4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

OH it's been years since I've carved idols for myself, so - check .

20:5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

I haven't since my back went out and my knees got arthritis

20:6And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. [/color]

I'm merciful towards Christians...I are one. But my mercy isn't exclusive to Christians, either.

 

[transientlife]

And finally: 2 Corinthians 6:14-16

6:14Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?

What exactly is meant by yoked? All I know is that it is a harness for cattle to plow with, and I won't plow in a yoke, no matter who is wearing it with me. How can you try to teach to those that don't know if you do not associate with them? Good luck trying to teach a bunch of already-made Christians- you have your work cut out for you. Here's where I am kind of confused. We are to strive to be like Jesus, right? He associated with societal 'outcasts', so how can we try to be like him if we avoid them? I don't see how you can avoid unbelievers yet attempt to introduce them to Him at the same time.

6:15And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel?

Can't think of a smart-aleck remark for that one. Pass.

6:16And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

No argument there, since I believe in God. But how can you 'show the unbelievers the way' if you maintain exclusiveness among 'the ranks'? (Actually that kind of refers back to the yoking scripture)

and I had to do the smart aleck remarks...this debate was getting to grave for me, I needed to lighten it up a bit for myself.

 

[ACougar]

885 posts so far more or less discussing the morality of being Wiccan. Those who would say Wicca is immoral tend to use Christianity as the moral yardstick, and yet we have never even taken a cursory glance at the morality of Christianity.

1. Christians do not accept responsibility for thier actions, instead they expect the sacrifice of another to atone for thier mistakes.

2. Christians worship a God who admits to being jelouse of other Gods and who gains followers by threatening those who do accept him with seperation from those they love. Those who do not buy into the fear are threatened with eternal damnation.

3. Christainas fail to acknowledge the sacredness of all life.

4. Most Christians fail to honor beliefs differant from thier own.

There's your moral religion.

 

[Volos]

If you twist what I say, then how can you claim to have the truth about things eternal?

You are the one who passes judgement on other Christians and you admit you have the authority. Hardly twisting.



You can claim what you like. You can claim to have truth about things eternal, you can claim to be the love child of Elton John and Zippy the Wonder Chimp. Because you claim something to be true however does nto make it so.

 

[Volos]

Friend, you're in a *debate* forum. With pagans. At a Christian forum.

you minght wish to pause for a moment to notice that transientlife isn’t debating any Pagans, only you.

 

[Volos]

885 posts so far more or less discussing the morality of being Wiccan. Those who would say Wicca is immoral tend to use Christianity as the moral yardstick, and yet we have never even taken a cursory glance at the morality of Christianity.

1. Christians do not accept responsibility for thier actions, instead they expect the sacrifice of another to atone for thier mistakes.

I think this part of Christianity is only in regards to SIN in the sense of humanity willfully choosing to live in something other than in total dependence on their God (I.E. original sin) and not about sin in the sense of breaking all the many unworkable rules in their little book.



I will agree there seems to be a general lack of self-responsibility in the traditional Christian moral system. Confession seems all to easy and there is always the devil to blame.

2. Christians worship a God who admits to being jelouse of other Gods and who gains followers by threatening those who do accept him with seperation from those they love. Those who do not buy into the fear are threatened with eternal damnation.

Eternal damnation is threatened for a lot of reasons.



One thing I have noticed is that those Christians who not only accept the idea of eternal damnation but seem to take pleasure in announcing just who is and who is not eternally damned always view that such damnation is for other people, never for themselves or for those who belong to their particular sect/cult.

3. Christainas fail to acknowledge the sacredness of all life.

I have many times noted before that the fundamentalist Christian worldview is one that glorifies humans. According to their creation myth human begins are given domain over nature, the earth, all the animals and ordered to subdue it clearly making human being supernatural (above nature) creatures.

4. Most Christians fail to honor beliefs differant from thier own.

true.

 

[transientlife]

I think you and ACougar are bringing some very interesting things to light about some members of the christian faith.

I think this part of Christianity is only in regards to SIN in the sense of humanity willfully choosing to live in something other than in total dependence on their God (I.E. original sin) and not about sin in the sense of breaking all the many unworkable rules in their little book.



I will agree there seems to be a general lack of self-responsibility in the traditional Christian moral system. Confession seems all to easy and there is always the devil to blame.

Confession is a Catholic deal, mostly. I never understood the need for an intermediary when dealing with God.

Eternal damnation is threatened for a lot of reasons.



One thing I have noticed is that those Christians who not only accept the idea of eternal damnation but seem to take pleasure in announcing just who is and who is not eternally damned always view that such damnation is for other people, never for themselves or for those who belong to their particular sect/cult.

I have many times noted before that the fundamentalist Christian worldview is one that glorifies humans. According to their creation myth human begins are given domain over nature, the earth, all the animals and ordered to subdue it clearly making human being supernatural (above nature) creatures.

Perhaps I was taught wrong, but I distinctly remember learning in Sunday School and VBS that we humans were put here to TAKE CARE of animals and the earth. Then again maybe that was the sanitized kid-friendly version. But I think it's foolish to believe we are dominant over animals or nature---they, nature in particular, whoops our behinds on a regular basis, afterall.

 

[Volos]

I think you and ACougar are bringing some very interesting things to light about some members of the christian faith.

thanks

Confession is a Catholic deal, mostly. I never understood the need for an intermediary when dealing with God.

Apologies. Realize that to those of us on the outside the miniscule difference of theological points between Christian sects is just plain confusing.



I have also felt the same confusion about the need for an intermediary between the Divine and the self. Thought I do not limit my definition of intermediary to just Catholic priests but also to the bible which seems to act in exactly the same way as more of a barrio than a bridge to the Divine. So often I hear that to know the Christian God Christians must read the bible but I always wonder why if these same Christians want to know heir Deity, why don’t they just speak to him directly?

Hell, always seems to be for other people.

Perhaps I was taught wrong, but I distinctly remember learning in Sunday School and VBS that we humans were put here to TAKE CARE of animals and the earth. Then again maybe that was the sanitized kid-friendly version. But I think it's foolish to believe we are dominant over animals or nature---they, nature in particular, whoops our behinds on a regular basis, afterall.

Perhaps. Again if I am wrong I apologize. It is unfortunate that most of my knowledge of Christian theology comes from this forum. I recognize that what I read and perceive here tends to be horribly skewed.

 

[SquareC]

Confession is a Catholic deal, mostly. I never understood the need for an intermediary when dealing with God.

I've never really understood that either.......but the principle is nevertheless the same when confessing directly to God rather than through an intermediary. Not sure whether just how common this is among Christians, just that I have seen it many times. I know there are a large number of exceptions, though, Christians who take responsibility for their own actions rather than, "Oh, God, take my sins and problems away, I don't want to deal with them..." Dealing with this evasion of responsibility was one of the factors in my conversion to Wicca.

Perhaps I was taught wrong, but I distinctly remember learning in Sunday School and VBS that we humans were put here to TAKE CARE of animals and the earth. Then again maybe that was the sanitized kid-friendly version. But I think it's foolish to believe we are dominant over animals or nature---they, nature in particular, whoops our behinds on a regular basis, afterall.

It all depends on which church you were raised in. I was raised Episcopalian and it was "dominion over the earth and sky, all the fish in the sea and the creatures of land and air...." Another one of the reasons I converted to Wicca. I cannot believe the unequivocal humano-centric view of the universe that doctrine espouses.

transientlife, you have some excellent posts here and I applaud you. I stopped bothering with Whitehorse quite some time ago. If all he wants to do is quote scripture at me, well, I have an answer to that...

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]The Wiccan Rede

Bide the Wiccan Laws we must
In perfect Love and Perfect Trust.
Live and let live,
Fairly take and fairly give.
Cast the Circle thrice about
To keep the evil spirits out.
To bind the spell every time
Let the spell be spake in rhyme.
Soft of eye and light of touch,
Speak little, listen much.
Deosil go by the waxing moon,
Chanting out the Witches' Rune.
Widdershins go by the waning-moon,
Chanting out the baneful rune.
When the lady's moon is new.
Kiss the hand to her, times two.
When the moon rides at her peak,
Then your heart's desire seek.
Heed the North wind's mighty gale,
Lock the door and drop the sail.
When the wind comes from the South,
Love will kiss thee on the mouth.
When the wind blows from the West,
Departed souls will have no rest.
When the wind blows from the East,
Expect the new and set the feast.
Nine woods in the cauldron go,
Burn them fast and burn them slow.
Elder be the Lady's tree,
Burn it not or cursed you'lll be.
When the Wheel begins to turn,
Let the Beltane fires burn.
When the Wheel has turned to Yule,
Light the logs and Horned one rules.
Heed ye Flower, Bush and Tree,
By the Lady, blessed be.
When the rippling waters go,
Cast a stone and truth you'll know.
When ye have a true need,
Hearken not to other's greed.
With a fool no season spend,
Lest ye be counted as his friend.
Merry meet and merry part,
Bright the cheeks and warm the heart.
Mind the Threefold Law you should,
Three times bad and three times good.
When misfortune is enow,
Wear the blue star on thy brow.
True is love ever be,
Lest thy lover's false to thee.
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill:
"An' Harm ye none, do as you will."[/font]



[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]__________________
[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]That is my scripture.
[/font]

 

[msjones21]

That is my scripture.

And I give a hearty AMEN to Square C! *smiles* Blessed be, hun.

 

[msjones21]

As an afterthought, I was always puzzled as to why being of the Wiccan faith is even a question of morality. I don't see how one's choice of faith makes them moral or immoral. It's what you do with your faith that defines whether you're moral or immoral. I'll take the beautiful words of The Wiccan Rede over the hellfire and brimstone of the Good Book any day of the week. How can anyone, Christian or not, condemn a faith that is based on love and respect for all living things and (just like the principles of the bible) believes that whatever you do in life, good or bad, will come back to you threefold?

 

[Rae]

I don't see how one's choice of faith makes them moral or immoral. It's what you do with your faith that defines whether you're moral or immoral.

Well, yeah. Even when I was a Christian, we all knew that there were people who agreed with our religious beliefs but behaved immorally (e.g. campus preachers who came by and told women with short skirts that they were harlots. Really).

 

[transientlife]

thanks[/color]



Apologies. Realize that to those of us on the outside the miniscule difference of theological points between Christian sects is just plain confusing.

No need to apologize for your observations and opinions, Volos. I am still confused by the theological differences between Christian sects, which is one reason I refrain from associating myself with any particular one at this point, I'm still looking into different ones trying to find the one that seems to draw me. I was raised Church of God (General Conference) though and seem quite happy with them, but curiosity you know...

I have also felt the same confusion about the need for an intermediary between the Divine and the self. Thought I do not limit my definition of intermediary to just Catholic priests but also to the bible which seems to act in exactly the same way as more of a barrio than a bridge to the Divine. So often I hear that to know the Christian God Christians must read the bible but I always wonder why if these same Christians want to know heir Deity, why don’t they just speak to him directly?

Exactly!

Perhaps. Again if I am wrong I apologize. It is unfortunate that most of my knowledge of Christian theology comes from this forum. I recognize that what I read and perceive here tends to be horribly skewed.

I think if you base your opinions of anything off of one source, you risk having an incomplete view. It's like basing your opinion of Islam solely on the one 'great' (note sarcasm) representantive Bin Laden...or Christianity by the likes of Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and their cohorts. I'm sure you don't want people to perceive Paganism by a few practitioners on here or a media interpretation, because maybe they don't represent the truth. At least you are willing to learn about different beliefs and not just ignore them

 

[transientlife]

transientlife, you have some excellent posts here and I applaud you. I stopped bothering with Whitehorse quite some time ago. If all he wants to do is quote scripture at me, well, I have an answer to that...

Sometimes it gets trying, but I welcome the challenge and learning new things and other viewpoints.

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]The Wiccan Rede

Bide the Wiccan Laws we must
In perfect Love and Perfect Trust.
Live and let live,
Fairly take and fairly give.
Cast the Circle thrice about
To keep the evil spirits out.
To bind the spell every time
Let the spell be spake in rhyme.
Soft of eye and light of touch,
Speak little, listen much.
Deosil go by the waxing moon,
Chanting out the Witches' Rune.
Widdershins go by the waning-moon,
Chanting out the baneful rune.
When the lady's moon is new.
Kiss the hand to her, times two.
When the moon rides at her peak,
Then your heart's desire seek.
Heed the North wind's mighty gale,
Lock the door and drop the sail.
When the wind comes from the South,
Love will kiss thee on the mouth.
When the wind blows from the West,
Departed souls will have no rest.
When the wind blows from the East,
Expect the new and set the feast.
Nine woods in the cauldron go,
Burn them fast and burn them slow.
Elder be the Lady's tree,
Burn it not or cursed you'lll be.
When the Wheel begins to turn,
Let the Beltane fires burn.
When the Wheel has turned to Yule,
Light the logs and Horned one rules.
Heed ye Flower, Bush and Tree,
By the Lady, blessed be.
When the rippling waters go,
Cast a stone and truth you'll know.
When ye have a true need,
Hearken not to other's greed.
With a fool no season spend,
Lest ye be counted as his friend.
Merry meet and merry part,
Bright the cheeks and warm the heart.
Mind the Threefold Law you should,
Three times bad and three times good.
When misfortune is enow,
Wear the blue star on thy brow.
True is love ever be,
Lest thy lover's false to thee.
Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill:
"An' Harm ye none, do as you will."[/font]



[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]__________________
[/font]
[font=verdana, arial, helvetica]That is my scripture.
[/font]

That is some lovely writing, for certain.

 

[Sola Scriptura]

Quote:

Originally Posted by: SquareC

transientlife, you have some excellent posts here and I applaud you. I stopped bothering with Whitehorse quite some time ago. If all he wants to do is quote scripture at me, well, I have an answer to that...



How transparent and bitter is that. I have followed Whitehorse. Whitehorse reasons eloquently and is tempered by scripture. Whitehorse quotes and expounds. Whitehorse is both gracious and salty. Whitehorse is a most impressive human being. Yet what is honey and sweetness to some, (i.e. the loving authority of God the Father), is the bitter dreggs of a cup which man in his rebel state refuses to drink; for it might make him well. And we obviously cannot be well. For that would mean we can no longer engage the world with our thoughts as if it was our little sandbox with all the hearkening little creatures at our disposal speaking and acting out our Follywood spec script for all to applaud with gasps and moving claps. Ya see, the liliputians must neccesarily tie our mighty tongues down to the ground for they might wisp out something revolutionary. Huuuh! And God knows there are too many revolutions going on in this theatre of our lies; I mean lives. Hello

_____________________________________________________________
"As to homosexuality making an untenible society please check out the Spartans...Or even the Roman and Greek societies where the love of a beautiful lad was the purest love around ...while you may not be happy about it, there are millions and millions of Americans who do not find such "acts"disgusting." -mpshiel-

"I have a few 18+ movies in my DVD collection. Actually I think "Better than Chocolate"
(available at most internet retailers near you) is an 18 plus..." -mpshiel-

 

[Havoc]

Whitehorse has consistently failed to give any substantive and objective evidence for his claim of authority, while couching her retorts in unreasonable demands to others ("please quote and respond to everything I've said in the last 75 pages or I won't answer your question") while failing to apply the same demands to herself. She demands that others begin the debate by acknowledgeing the supposed authority of the bible and refuses to substantiate that authority with objective evidence.

Whitehorse talks prettily, but says nothing. Which is why most of us have given up trying to engage her in reasonable debate. One can only go around in the same circles with a person who refuses to debate before it becomes tiresome and futile.

We've stopped playing the Whitehorse game. If you are impressed by the meaningless rhetoric, perhaps it's because it's what you want to hear?

 

[msjones21]

*applauds Havoc*