Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

[Phil W]

Apologies. I did not intend to be in attack mode.
I thought we were still having a lively debate. Maybe this will help.

I see the baptism with the Holy Spirit as a subsequent experience to salvation.
This means that it may happen right away, or it may happen later at some time.
Or it may not happen at all. Which might be the case with you.

I believe the indwelling of the Spirit comes in salvation when we first believe.
But this is different than the baptism with the Holy Spirit.

The baptism with the Holy Spirit is a gateway, if you wish, to other manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The typical manifestations initially are speaking in tongues or prophecy.

Why do you feel the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit is different than the "gift" of the Holy Spirit?
What scrips' do you as an example?
I feel they are the same.
I too feel it (they) is (are) manifested by speaking in tongues. As happened to the twelve at Ephesus.

 

[Phil W]

Because the 1/3 SPIRIT OF CHRIST is all of Jesus Christ that is in you. But only IF your spirit was reborn...as A new creation making all things spiritual...experientially new for you. Your 2/3 soul and sinful flesh body are not the soul and body of Jesus Christ...they're PHIL's.

Sorry, "all things are made new" means "all" things.
If your doctrine(?) is true, you are only 1/3 reborn, or, only 1/3 of the seed of God.

Wrong. Self-righteousness is unrighteousness. And you don't understand 'imparted righteousness' or 'Christ in you'. Both of which are successive to 'you in Christ's imputed righteousness'.

Self-righteousness isn't righteousness...neither is 1/3 righteousness.

I quoted scripture and your opinion is WRONG again...concerning those 'CHRISTIANS' Paul wrote the letter to at Galatia. Read the context PHIL. It wasn't addressed to 'My little heathen how I am in travail...'. Paul said "little children" which is the equivalent of those here 'in way over their head' theologically, but still thinking they are something.

I can't consider those outside of Christ as Christians.

GAL 4:9 but now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and beggarly elemental spirits, whose slaves you want to be once more?

It's called BACKSLIDING SOULS Phil. Their born again "grieving/quenched" spirits are OSAS.

It's called a false repentance to begin with.
Those people were never in Christ.

It cost you nothing, it cost Christ everything. My conversion was different than yours. I'd be a Christian if there was no Hell like you believe. My life is better than before because I have Christ's life now. Surprised you didn't have the same experience. How righteous were you before Phil, since it cost you so much? Please it's a rhetorical question. I want no more answers from you.

Again, I think you are citing someone else's belief about no hell.
I do believe it.
BTW, your conversion was a 1/3 conversion according to your post.

You are 1/3 flesh and you want to tell me that it doesn't exist in your walk????? WRONG.
WRONG. But being self deceived seems about right to me.

It is written..."I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)
"MY" flesh is His skin now. As are my bones. {Eph 5:30)

NO you prove again who is confused is Genesis and has nothing to do with the thread or us in Christ. You just keep proving why I told you last time I really don't want to dialogue with you. And I was going to stop here with that point. But you just keep getting worse so one more quote/answer and I'm done.

It wasn't me that cited Genesis.

Well, Well, Well, then I guess you can just have Paul kiss your feet when you get to heaven, since you've made it.
PHI 3:12 Not that I (PAUL) have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

My salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement. I must endure till the end.
As for Paul, he spoke of what part of him had yet to be perfected in verse 21 of Phi 3..."Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself."
It was his body that was not yet perfected.
Why don't you rather, identify with verse 15?
"Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you."

 

[BABerean2]

I feel they are the same.

They are the same.

The Holy Spirit is also the master teacher for those who are in the New Covenant.


Joh 14:26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.


Heb 8:11 NONE OF THEM SHALL TEACH HIS NEIGHBOR, AND NONE HIS BROTHER, SAYING, 'KNOW THE LORD,' FOR ALL SHALL KNOW ME, FROM THE LEAST OF THEM TO THE GREATEST OF THEM.
(Quoted from the promise of the New Covenant in Jeremiah 31:31-34.)


1Jn 2:27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

.

 

[Saint Steven]

What speaking in tongues is and how it should be done comes from the scripture, which is found below, instead of from me.

My tongues are English, and some Spanish I took in high school, and a tiny amount of Greek.

What tongues do you speak in from the verses below?

Act 2:8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
Act 2:9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
Act 2:10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
Act 2:11 Cretans and Arabs—we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God."

.

You obviously couldn't apply your claimed biblical definition to the house of Cornelius, right? Nor to Samaria, nor Ephesus, nor to 1Cor.12-14.

There are more than one kind of tongues. See list below.
Acts chapter two is #5 below.

The tongues typically received with the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (personal prayer language - #1 below) is not the same as the Gift of Tongues (prophetic ministry language - #3 below). The tongues at the outpouring on Pentecost were an evangelistic language - #5 below. Tongues used to pray for others is an intercessory prayer language - #2 below. And tongues used in personal and corporate worship can be either a personal prayer language - #1 below, or singing in the Spirit - #4 below. I hope this helps.

Five Different kinds of tongues
1) Personal prayer language - Speaking to/with God
2) Intercessory prayer language - Praying for others in the Spirit
3) Prophetic ministry language - Delivering a message to the congregation with interpretation following
4) Singing in the Spirit - Singing in tongues/worship activity
5) Evangelistic language - Speaking the message of God to a people in their own language (not yours)

 

[Saint Steven]

Why do you feel the "indwelling" of the Holy Spirit is different than the "gift" of the Holy Spirit?
What scrips' do you as an example?
I feel they are the same.
I too feel it (they) is (are) manifested by speaking in tongues. As happened to the twelve at Ephesus.

At times it may be hard to distinguish between the two if you have both. It is the same Spirit.

But the primary difference is that the baptism with the Holy Spirit is confirmed in physical manifestations from the list of gifts in 1Cor.12. Also see my list of five different kinds of tongues in the post above.

Here are two examples. The first is for the indwelling, the second is for the baptism with the Holy Spirit. (physical manifestation)

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

1 Corinthians 14:15
So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding.

 

[Saint Steven]

What speaking in tongues is and how it should be done comes from the scripture, which is found below, instead of from me.

1 Corinthians 12:1, 31; 14:1-3, 5, 39
1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed.
31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.
14:1 Follow the way of love and eagerly desire gifts of the Spirit, especially prophecy. 2 For anyone who speaks in a tongue does not speak to people but to God. Indeed, no one understands them; they utter mysteries by the Spirit. 3 But the one who prophesies speaks to people for their strengthening, encouraging and comfort.
5 I would like every one of you to speak in tongues, but I would rather have you prophesy. ...
39 Therefore, my brothers and sisters, be eager to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.

 

[Saint Steven]

Paul most probably spoke Hebrew, and Aramaic, and Greek, and Latin.

That is not what the Bible is talking about when it says speaking (praying, singing,) in tongues/spirit (small "s"). What you are referring to is foreign language usage. That is typically not a manifestation of the Holy Spirit. Though in rare cases it can be, temporarily.

1 Corinthians 14:13-15, 32
For this reason the one who speaks in a tongue should pray that they may interpret what they say. 14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. 15 So what shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my understanding; I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my understanding. ...
32 The spirits of prophets are subject to the control of prophets.

 

[Hillsage]

On the Day of Pentecost those present heard the Gospel in their native tongue.
Act 2:6 And when this SOUND occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

No one denies that the apostles spoke in the languages of men. That is of course except for those who believe the unsaved received the 'gift of hearing', because the apostles were speaking in their spirit's prayer tongue which no man understands. But that's not a biblical gift either.

1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

I bolded and made red the word you completely miss right out of the gate in your verse 6 above. The apostles spoke in that UNKNOWN prayer language of their spirit first. And that was that SOUND that drew the multitude to come together. It was then that the apostles received the "gift of tongues", which was NOT the tongue of their spirit, but the tongue from the Holy Spirit as listed in chapter 12 of Corinthians. That is simply two different sources of unknown tongues. People back then understood that and 'rightly divided' scripture as to which tongue was being spoken of in Corinthians. A church where 'according to Paul' the whole body spoke in prayer tongues.

Paul most probably spoke Hebrew, and Aramaic, and Greek, and Latin.

1Co_14:18 I thank my God I speak with tongues more than you all;
.

The only problem is, neither Paul or the bible supports your supposition. What Paul and the bible does support is that he prayed with the tongue of his spirit, and then even said we who also pray with out spirit's prayer language should then pray for the interpretation.

1CO 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

HELLO, that is Paul talking about speaking in the spiritual tongues of ANGELS and not Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin tongues of MEN. Tongues which no one prays for the interpretation of....they call for an interpreter who speaks that language.

1CO 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,

 

[BABerean2]

No one denies that the apostles spoke in the languages of men. That is of course except for those who believe the unsaved received the 'gift of hearing', because the apostles were speaking in their spirit's prayer tongue which no man understands. But that's not a biblical gift either.

1CO 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

I bolded and made red the word you completely miss right out of the gate in your verse 6 above. The apostles spoke in that UNKNOWN prayer language of their spirit first. And that was that SOUND that drew the multitude to come together. It was then that the apostles received the "gift of tongues", which was NOT the tongue of their spirit, but the tongue from the Holy Spirit as listed in chapter 12 of Corinthians. That is simply two different sources of unknown tongues. People back then understood that and 'rightly divided' scripture as to which tongue was being spoken of in Corinthians. A church where 'according to Paul' the whole body spoke in prayer tongues.


The only problem is, neither Paul or the bible supports your supposition. What Paul and the bible does support is that he prayed with the tongue of his spirit, and then even said we who also pray with out spirit's prayer language should then pray for the interpretation.

1CO 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.

HELLO, that is Paul talking about speaking in the spiritual tongue of spiritual ANGELS and not Hebrew, Aramaic, Greek and Latin of MEN.

1CO 13:1 Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels,

What would the Apostle Paul say if he saw a church full of men and women gabbering unknown gibberish, or falling on the floor, etc. ?

The answer is found below, where he corrected the Corinthian church.

1Co 14:1 Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1Co 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
1Co 14:3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
1Co 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying.
1Co 14:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
1Co 14:7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped?
1Co 14:8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle?
1Co 14:9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air.
1Co 14:10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification.
1Co 14:11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me.
1Co 14:12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church.
1Co 14:13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret.
1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.
1Co 14:16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?
1Co 14:17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.
1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.
1Co 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men.
1Co 14:21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
1Co 14:22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
1Co 14:23 If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1Co 14:24 But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:
1Co 14:25 And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth.
1Co 14:26 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying.
1Co 14:27 If any man speak in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret.
1Co 14:28 But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
1Co 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the other judge.
1Co 14:30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the first hold his peace.
1Co 14:31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
1Co 14:32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
1Co 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
1Co 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
1Co 14:36 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only?
1Co 14:37 If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.
1Co 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.
1Co 14:39 Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues.
1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

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[Hillsage]

What would the Apostle Paul say if he saw a church full of people gabbering unknown gibberish, falling on the floor, etc. ?

I'm of the persuasion that no one knows what Paul would say. But I do know that he wouldn't say they were DRUNK or MAD like scripture says those without spiritual tongues often accuse us of. And BTW terms you guys don't use today....WHY? I do believe he'd add "gibberish and Babel" and 'what's this new one you've added...GABBERING, to that "DRUNK/MAD" list today also.

But as to your question above, I do know that when I've prayed IN TONGUES and ENGLISH about similar situations, such as you just mentioned, I do believe I have received a 'word from God' as to what HE THINKS. Below is my TESTIMONY concerning that issue.

2010, IHOP ELECTRIC LINE
At the meeting's end, with music playing, they asked for anyone wanting prayer to come up, which I did. By this time many of the 'younger' kids had gotten into the music and were dancing and forming the lines which looked like the person being touched was being electrocuted and 'stuck' to the line which kept getting bigger. So I'm standing by the altar awaiting prayer with my eyes closed when all of a sudden I get bumped pretty good. I kept my eyes closed kind of wishing that other people kept theirs open a bit better. All of a sudden I get another hard bump, upon which I open my eyes to see what the idiot next to me is doing. Well it was the 'electric line' passing by with the last person kind of out of control on the end of a 'crack the whip'. My first thought was, I never felt any electric shock sucking me in, so what's going on here? But, rather than making a religious spirited judgement about it, I went to God early the next morning. As I prayed (talked WITH God) I felt like His word to me was this; “What you saw was more emotion than spiritual. Co-motion is spirit led and E- motion is just energy in motion. But even the E-motion you saw was OK with Me because its energy was positive and not negative. This leads to positive emotions like love, peace, joy and not negative emotions like anger, bitterness and hurt. Positive leads to life and negative leads to death.”

I thought that was a pretty good WORD from God....don't you?


As for all the rest of what you posted, why should I deal with it? Which I can. First refute what I already posted concerning the errors of your last post. I see no reason to just chase the tail of those holding the position that Paul calls "ungifted, unlearned" concerning these spiritual things we're speaking of. If you are seeking the truth, then deal with what I've already said and don't expect me to chase all the bunny trails the "ungifted, unlearned" have amassed over the years to justify their voluntary 'have not' position.

I'm more than happy to answer any questions as I did at the top of this post, since it's a straw man question to even ask IMO. But as far as I'm concerned if you want to live up to your username BEREAN, then please deal with my last post.

 

[Hillsage]

1 Corinthians 12:1,
1 Now about the gifts of the Spirit, brothers and sisters, I do not want you to be uninformed..

What translation is this Steven? I don't like it. For one thing the word "gifts" is not in the Greek. That word was added by fundamentalist translators, which is all there were in the dark ages, who couldn't admit that there's something they didn't have. Also, your translation leaves out the word "Brethren" which is in every translation I've checked. So let's read that verse in the light of the Spirit in which it was inspired.

KJV 1CO 12:1 Now concerning spiritual .... brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

RSV 1CO 12:1 Now concerning ...spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

NIV
1CO 12:1 Now about spiritual ... brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant.

So, reading it in the light that it was originally, we have a dilemma. All those who are Cessasionists or even seekers who have not yet received, have a definition FROM the bible as to ITS definition of what a spiritual man is. It is someone who is moving in the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" in chapter 12. So it's pretty easy to see why translators live up to both of my 'signature line' quotes below.

 

[Saint Steven]

What would the Apostle Paul say if he saw a church full of men and women gabbering unknown gibberish, or falling on the floor, etc. ?

The answer is found below, where he corrected the Corinthian church.

So your solution is to ban tongues? Is that "correct"?

 

[Saint Steven]

What translation is this Steven?

Always NIV unless specified otherwise.
Is that one of your doorstop editions? lol

 

[Saint Steven]

What translation is this Steven? I don't like it. For one thing the word "gifts" is not in the Greek. That word was added by fundamentalist translators, which is all there were in the dark ages, who couldn't admit that there's something they didn't have. Also, your translation leaves out the word "Brethren" which is in every translation I've checked. So let's read that verse in the light of the Spirit in which it was inspired.

KJV 1CO 12:1 Now concerning spiritual .... brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

RSV 1CO 12:1 Now concerning ...spiritual brethren, I would not have you ignorant.

NIV
1CO 12:1 Now about spiritual ... brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant.

So, reading it in the light that it was originally, we have a dilemma. All those who are Cessasionists or even seekers who have not yet received, have a definition FROM the bible as to ITS definition of what a spiritual man is. It is someone who is moving in the "gifts of the Holy Spirit" in chapter 12. So it's pretty easy to see why translators live up to both of my 'signature line' quotes below.

I don't like the word gifts either. And I speak to that on occasion. They are manifestations. (spirituals)

So, no gifts for women of God? lol -- (now you are in trouble) Wait 'til the sistern hear 'bout 'dis.

 

[Hillsage]

Always NIV unless specified otherwise.
Is that one of your doorstop editions? lol

Actually it is. Sorry. That verse is exactly one of the reasons why.

 

[Hillsage]

I don't like the word gifts either. And I speak to that on occasion. They are manifestations. (spirituals)

So, no gifts for women of God? lol -- (now you are in trouble) Wait 'til the sistern hear 'bout 'dis.

Ouch. That does bite a little bit. But then Acts 2:38 says “men and brethren/ brothers so brethren is just a ‘little ‘ bit funny. I know that at least a couple of times in the RSV it says “the brethren and the brethren “ which is weird. But I’m not home where I can access my RSV. On my back home from the Heidi Baker conference.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

One of my pet peeves is people who don't speak in tongues telling those who do, what it is and how it should be done.

Because those who don't can't be informed on them through studying the biblical text? To me this notion is such rubbish. It'd be like saying that single people can't know anything about Christian marriage.

 

[Phil W]

I bolded and made red the word you completely miss right out of the gate in your verse 6 above. The apostles spoke in that UNKNOWN prayer language of their spirit first. And that was that SOUND that drew the multitude to come together.

What version of the bible are you using?
I see no mention of "sound" in verse 6 in the KJV.
"4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
5 And there were dwelling at Jerusalem Jews, devout men, out of every nation under heaven.
6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together,..."
What was "noised abroad" was the news of their speaking in the home languages of the visitors.

 

[BABerean2]

So your solution is to ban tongues? Is that "correct"?

If you want to participate in what is found in the video below, you have the right, and freedom to do so.

However, the rest of us also have the right, and freedom to read what the Apostle Paul had to say in the verses below.

1Co 14:4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:
1Co 14:19 Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.

.

 

[Saint Steven]

Because those who don't can't be informed on them through studying the biblical text? To me this notion is such rubbish. It'd be like saying that single people can't know anything about Christian marriage.

Well, you're married... Are you saying you knew what you were getting into? That's pretty funny. Maybe you've only been married for a week? lol

The truth is, there is very little information in the Bible about spiritual gifts and how they operate. If the Corinthian church had not been swinging from the chandeliers, we wouldn't have 1Cor.12-14, where 90 percent of what we know biblically is found.

I grew up in an evangelical church. I had to work hard to figure all this out. And ultimately I had to experience it for myself to really put the puzzle together.

You can watch all the skydiving videos you want, but until you jump out of a plane, you don't really know what it's like. Same with marriage. It's like jumping out of a plane. (without a parachute) -- lol