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That's my point; we are BORN with it.You answered your own question when you posted..."because all have sinned".
There is no blame before one commits sin.
Death, however, is passed on from Adam to all.
The "endure until the end" idea is a contextual misuse.Yes, I will be saved...if I endure until the end.
To this point, I have.
God grades on a pass-fail system.
Black and white.
No shades of gray.
Our actions determine whether we love Him or hate Him. (Matt 6:24)
Thanks for your testimony.We're closer to each other than you think. I was Born Again (received the Holy Spirit) at 10yo. It came down out of Heaven and filled me. I was baptized in water 1 week later. It wasn't until I was about 30 that I spoke in Tongues with Interpretation. This was another "outpouring" of the Holy Spirit, but it too came from Heaven, in the same way, from the same Lord Jesus Christ, as did my Born Again experience. My "Born Again" experience and my "Tongues" experience happened 20 years apart, but they are NOT 2 separate baptisms. They are considered by God to both be part of the ONE Baptism, just as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God. In the first case (Born Again experience), I preached the Gospel. In the second case (Tongues experience) I spoke with Unknown Tongues and received the Interpretation. Both times God poured out the Holy Spirit from above, from heaven, down into my body. Each "outpouring" is from Jesus Christ in Heaven... it is two different manifestations of the same Spirit being poured out....they were both part of my "One Baptism".
No. My comment was on the topic of the thread. You derailed by questioning my use of a certain pronoun.
We're closer to each other than you think. I was Born Again (received the Holy Spirit) at 10yo. It came down out of Heaven and filled me. I was baptized in water 1 week later. It wasn't until I was about 30 that I spoke in Tongues with Interpretation. This was another "outpouring" of the Holy Spirit, but it too came from Heaven, in the same way, from the same Lord Jesus Christ, as did my Born Again experience. My "Born Again" experience and my "Tongues" experience happened 20 years apart, but they are NOT 2 separate baptisms. They are considered by God to both be part of the ONE Baptism, just as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are One God. In the first case (Born Again experience), I preached the Gospel. In the second case (Tongues experience) I spoke with Unknown Tongues and received the Interpretation. Both times God poured out the Holy Spirit from above, from heaven, down into my body. Each "outpouring" is from Jesus Christ in Heaven... it is two different manifestations of the same Spirit being poured out....they were both part of my "One Baptism".
Did you not read my "ONE BAPTISM" post way back? You did totally fail to respond to it? So I'll 'add to' my comment from last time, just in case you didn't understand my 'brief' refutation as to your "one baptism" theological understanding.
EPH 4:4-6 There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to the one hope that belongs to your call, 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of us all, who is above all and through all and in all.
Remember taking those tests in school where you were supposed to pick out the one thing that didn't fit in a listing of four things? Example: What word doesn't fit in the following list? Rose, lily, carnation, rock. Got the answer? It's rock of course. Now let’s see if that same logic’ actually applies to the 'one baptism' verse of Eph 4:5. A list that is reference to the “one hope” of “our call” to???....It is to our ‘call to God’.
"One Lord"...is that speaking of you or Jesus?
"one faith"...is that faith in you or faith in Jesus?
"one God and Father”...is that like when Isa 9:6 said Jesus' name was "mighty God, Everlasting Father," or is it talking about you as a god and father?
Now, we only have one other thing left in that list, and it is the "one baptism". So, the question for me is: Is this 'a baptism' that pertains to you...or to Jesus? Scripturally speaking, there is more than ‘one baptism’ that pertains to ’the foundational’ doctrines for ‘YOU as a Christian’.
HEB 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again ‘the foundation’ of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
If there are multiple “baptisms” pertaining to our faith, then what “one baptism” might scripture be speaking of, as we read Eph. 4:5?
LUK 12:50 But I/Jesus have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished!
The baptism spoken of here isn’t with ‘water for repentance’ or the ‘Holy Spirit for supernatural power’ because Jesus had already had those two baptisms. The baptism spoken of here is the baptism of the death which Jesus still had laying ahead of Him, on the cross.
ROM 6:3-5 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.
This verse above speaks of the only baptism in Luke 12 which Jesus still had not received. And scripture says we identify with Jesus in this baptism of death when we participate in “one” of those ‘foundational baptisms’ in Hebrews 6. Baptisms which scripture says we should experience in laying down the very foundation of our faith’ before we can go on to maturity. And Ephesians is the only baptism necessary for us to ALL believe in concerning the “hope” of our “call” in Christ. It is the only baptism (“one baptism”) we, as a highly divided church, must cling to, which will determine whether we maintain “the unity of the Spirit” or not. And in the context ‘the unity of the Spirit’ is what Eph 4: is talking about. It is not referencing the ‘unity of the Church’ which is an application that even Paul refutes.
1CO 1:12-17: …13 Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul? 14 I thank God that I baptized none of you,…
The "endure until the end" idea is a contextual misuse.
I know it is common, but it is erroneous in context. See below.
That passage is about the end times scenario in Israel.
Nothing to do with our eternal salvation.
Only to do with surviving the end times in Israel.
Because it was a 100
% wrong ronoun and needed addressing. Calling a he a she is a big deal.
It's not a thought it is called SCRIPTURE. A scripture which spells out multiple baptisms being necessary to "go on unto PERFECTION" or maturity. So far everyone here confessing they got the Holy Spirit at rebirth simply proves why they aren't and may never be.Hi Hillsage: Just need to address a thought you wrote.
Seriously, go back and READ the post. I can't turn it into a piece of candy to melt in your mouth, study to show yourselves approved and CHEW that post.If there are multiple “baptisms” pertaining to our faith, then what “one baptism” might scripture be speaking of, as we read Eph. 4:5?"
"Baptism by the spirit" is NOT SCRIPTURAL.And the one baptism of Eph is the Baptism by the spirit which regenerates one and places them into the body of Christ!
If you don't know scripture well enough to see multiple baptisms, then your gutting of the Hebrews verse above, just reveals your inability to see past your indoctrinated POV.There are not multiple baptisms to our faith. The writer of Hebrews was speaking to Jews who did hold to multiple baptisms.
Hi JOhnathan:
I do not wish to argue the efficacy of tongues, but your being filled with the Spirit at the moment of salvation was the one and total baptism you received. At that moment you were given 100% of the Spirit and that included the gifts God gave to you. Whjen we manifest gifts- it is simply the spirit empowering what He has already given us! Not a new outpouring or a new infilling as if we lost some measure of the spirit.
Even when we sin- we may grieve or even quench the spirit but not need a new pouring. Just 1 JOhn 1:9 and we restore our relationship that is already within us.
I agree.Thanks for your testimony.
This is why I object to those who want to put the Spirit in a box.
Those who want to formulate what the Spirit can do and how it can and cannot operate.
The Holy Spirit does not operate according our rules. The Spirit has a will to operate as he sees fit, as he determines.
If one understands that the "work of" is what the Spirit is distributing. He is not giving you any of those 9 GIFTS. They're His gifts/manifestations given to whom they are intended to benefit, not us. We are merely the representative "priests" who have one hand of reception toward heaven and one hand of distribution toward man/earth. If any one was getting 'the gift' of any of His manifestations then verse 9 wouldn't be plural.1 Corinthians 12:11
All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines.
So, enduring till the end was only for the Jews.The "endure until the end" idea is a contextual misuse.
I know it is common, but it is erroneous in context. See below.
That passage is about the end times scenario in Israel.
Nothing to do with our eternal salvation.
Only to do with surviving the end times in Israel.
Matthew 10:21-23
“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.
Matthew 24:9-14
“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
Mark 13:12-19
“Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 “When you see ‘the abomination that causes desolation’ standing where it does not belong—let the reader understand—then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 15 Let no one on the housetop go down or enter the house to take anything out. 16 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 17 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 18 Pray that this will not take place in winter, 19 because those will be days of distress unequaled from the beginning, when God created the world, until now—and never to be equaled again.
"When we sin"?Hi JOhnathan:
I do not wish to argue the efficacy of tongues, but your being filled with the Spirit at the moment of salvation was the one and total baptism you received. At that moment you were given 100% of the Spirit and that included the gifts God gave to you. Whjen we manifest gifts- it is simply the spirit empowering what He has already given us! Not a new outpouring or a new infilling as if we lost some measure of the spirit.
Even when we sin- we may grieve or even quench the spirit but not need a new pouring. Just 1 JOhn 1:9 and we restore our relationship that is already within us.
It has everything to do with eternal salvation.
The context is the great tribulation. The context is about continuing to believe during persecution and not turning away from Christ, by taking the mark of the beast and worshipping the false messiah, the antichrist.
That is the context.
Jesus had finished teaching them the parable of the Sower, so they understood the context and meaning.
“Therefore hear the parable of the sower: When anyone hears the word of the kingdom, and does not understand it, then the wicked one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is he who received seed by the wayside. But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word, immediately he stumbles. Matthew 13:18-21
immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures only for a while. For when tribulation or persecution arises because of the word,
In Matthew 24 we see the same exact context -
“Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake. And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. Then many false prophets will rise up and deceive many. And because lawlessness will abound, the love of many will grow cold. But he who endures to the end shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come. Mathew 24:9-13
Enduring to the end has everything to do with salvation.
JLB
"When we sin"?
I guess you don't believe in baptismal regeneration...or you think the new creature, the one generated from God's seed, will be just like the old, sinful, flesh driven beast.
I agree. But it's like how Jesus explained the spirit saying "out of his belly will FLOW rivers of living water". A river KEEPS getting more fresh water. So does a fountain "springing up into Eternal Life". God's spirit is not a stagnent pool of tepid salt water. It's a freshwater RIVER, a FOUNTAIN, a SPRING, and a WELL. I guess a better way to say it is not "another outpouring" for when does a river produce "another outpouring"? It's always fresh. I should say it was "more outpouring of the same Spirit". Maybe that is more accurate. Wen I received Tongues, it was more/additional Tangible and Audile "move" of God's spirit... it distinctly came DOWN from above me just like when I was Born Again, this time like a ball of heat, melted into my forehead, went down to my bosom, and came up out of my mouth in a Powerful, Unknown language that chased away the Spirit of Fear (Lucifer) who was in my face, and my tongue flipped like the flame of a candle or an expert swordsmen fencing as I spoke in Tongues. Then the same spirit gave the English interpreation into my mind so that my tongue was speaking an unknown language, but my mind was receiving the English understanding of it. That's why I call it the "Fire-Sword Tongues". It's the same Spirit (2 edged Sword) that comes out of Jesus' mouth and kills the followers of the AntiChrist in Revelation. It is also the same Spirit that pours out of the 2 witnessess' mouths as fire in Revelation. It is also like the flaming sword that the Angel held that guarded the way to the Tree of Life after Adam and Even were cast out of Eden. My point is, there were differences in MANIFESTION between my Tongues experience and my Born Again experience, even though they are BOTH in/of/from the same One Baptism.
The Holy Spirit IS the Gift of God. Once you have the Holy Spirit, He unpacks his own gifts, the Gifts of the Spirit. If you have the Holy Spirit, you have everything you need because He has all the Gifts of the Spirit within Himself, but the Holy Spirit may not have unpacked His Gifts to you yet. This is why Paul says "earnestly desire the spiritual gifts". This was written to those who already had the Holy Spirit, but had not experienced "unpacking" or manifest usage of the Spirit gifts. We are told to seek God for the Gifts which His Spirit gives. Every good and perfect gift comes DOWN from the Father of Lights.
If you are seeking supernatural gifts to exalt yourself or prove God exists, you are "a wicked generation which seeks after a sign". But if you earnestly desire to have the spiritual gifts so that you can love God and love others, you are obeying the Word of God.
It's not a thought it is called SCRIPTURE. A scripture which spells out multiple baptisms being necessary to "go on unto PERFECTION" or maturity. So far everyone here confessing they got the Holy Spirit at rebirth simply proves why they aren't and may never be.
"HEB 6:1-2 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto PERFECTION; not laying again ‘the foundation’ of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God, 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Seriously, go back and READ the post. I can't turn it into a piece of candy to melt in your mouth, study to show yourselves approved and CHEW that post.
"Baptism by the spirit" is NOT SCRIPTURAL.
If you don't know scripture well enough to see multiple baptisms, then your gutting of the Hebrews verse above, just reveals your inability to see past your indoctrinated POV.
I told you before Phil, I'm not interested in YOUR UNSUBSTANTIATED OPINIONS. Back what you say with scripture as I have done or don't keep posting me.
The answers concerning what the "One Baptism" is, are right there in my post and NOBODY HERE HAS REFUTED IT. But they have done just as Winston Churchill once said; "'Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing ever happened.'" And anyone here who can not offer one credible rebuttal to my post, epitomizes just exactly what Winston said. That conclusion is 'my opinion'.
Yes it does- but only during the 70th week of Daniel or as we know it as - The great Tribulation.
And it more of being kept safe (delivered that a soteriological salvation.
When it comes to the Spirit...Hi JOhnathan:
I do not wish to argue the efficacy of tongues, but your being filled with the Spirit at the moment of salvation was the one and total baptism you received. At that moment you were given 100% of the Spirit and that included the gifts God gave to you. Whjen we manifest gifts- it is simply the spirit empowering what He has already given us! Not a new outpouring or a new infilling as if we lost some measure of the spirit.
Even when we sin- we may grieve or even quench the spirit but not need a new pouring. Just 1 JOhn 1:9 and we restore our relationship that is already within us.
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