Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

Natsumi Lam · Apr 29, 2019

ViaCrucis said:
Is the word and promise of God in Jesus Christ not sufficient?

"It is a wicked and faithless generation that seeks after a sign," - Matthew 16:4

-CryptoLutheran

So then why we have "These are the signs that follow" ?

Mark 16:17-18 King James Version (KJV)
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Saint Steven · Apr 29, 2019

Phil W said:
I believe that 3 and 4 are the same thing...the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Was the Apostle Paul a believer before Ananias laid hands on him to receive the Spirit?
What went wrong in Samaria? The newly baptized believers needed the Apostles to lay hands on them to receive the Spirit. How did they even know that had not received the Spirit? What was the evidence? And after they laid hands on them, what was the evidence?

Saint Steven · Apr 29, 2019

Phil W said:
Cornelius had repented of sin...right?
So he was a non-sinner.
He had his past sins washed away in the name of Christ Jesus...right?
So he was sanctified.
He received the gift of the Holy Ghost, the seal of the inheritance...right?
So he had been deemed worthy of life eternal.

If one is clean, and not about to be dirtied by sin again, and has the Spirit of God in them, isn't he worthy of eternal life?

Wrong, wrong and wrong.

Saint Steven · Apr 29, 2019

Phil W said:
If water baptism is optional, then so is the death of the old man and our resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life.

The inward reality is more important than the outward ceremony.
This statement actually addresses the topic. The claim of baptismal regeneration is false.

Baptism is a ceremony. A ceremony is an outward sign or testimony of an inward reality.
This is why I don't believe in infant baptism. There is no inward reality.

When we decide to follow Christ, we die to our old self and walk in newness of life. Many who make that decision feel the weight lifted as they leave the old behind. They may not be baptized until months or years later, Some not at all. Are they saved by faith? I would say, "Yes!"

Where is baptism in the scripture below?

Romans 10:9-10
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

Saint Steven · Apr 29, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
Seems very "me" centered.

I believe
I get water baptized
I receive the Spirit
I receive the baptism with the Spirit

I. I. I. I.

Seems very Calvinistic to me. Me. Me. Me.

Again... this is not a list of REQUIREMENTS for salvation.
This is a list of the order (or lack thereof) of the elements we are discussing from the book of Acts.

Have you received all four? You, you, you...

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Seems very Calvinistic to me. Me. Me. Me.

Again... this is not a list of REQUIREMENTS for salvation.
This is a list of the order (or lack thereof) of the elements we are discussing from the book of Acts.

Have you received all four? You, you, you...

God baptized me.
God gave me faith.
God gave me his Spirit.
God baptized me with her.

God must come first. God gets the glory.

Natsumi Lam · Apr 29, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
God baptized me.
God gave me faith.
God gave me his Spirit.
God baptized me with her.

God must come first. God gets the glory.

Who is her?

Natsumi Lam · Apr 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Was the Apostle Paul a believer before Ananias laid hands on him to receive the Spirit?
What went wrong in Samaria? The newly baptized believers needed the Apostles to lay hands on them to receive the Spirit. How did they even know that had not received the Spirit? What was the evidence? And after they laid hands on them, what was the evidence?

Acts 2 agrees with you that many times repentance and baptism of the Holy Spirit can happen at different and seperate times.

nolidad · Apr 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
I have to ask again. What went wrong in Samaria?

Well as I do not know where you are referring to in scripture I cannot answer.

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 29, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
Who is her?

The Spirit of God.

nolidad · Apr 29, 2019

Phil W said:
Why not?
If it was good enough for the apostles of our Lord, why isn't still good enough?

I can't agree...not in the light of Romans 6:3,4,5.
How can the baptism of the Holy Ghost/Spirit be likened to burial, as immersion into water is?

I edited the above for clarity...I hope this is what you meant.

I agree with the first sentence, but not the second.

From whence springeth this?

Were that true, then nobody since Peter's death would be able to enter the kingdom of God.

Point one: The early part of acts describes a transition in history for Israel! Acts is a book of history! The doctrine for the church is found from Romans through Jude! That does not mean we cannot learn and apply precepts from Acts (for nothing was unsound )

Point 2: It is the Baptism of the Spirit which kills the old man (2 Cor. 5) that saves us- not being immersed in water! Baptism is simply a public declaration of what has already taken place on the inside.

Point 3:Well then you deny Eph. 2:8 and Romans 10 as true for you require water baptism as a requisite for salvation.

Point 4: It springs from Acts 2 and the fact that everyone who believed Jesus was the Messiah- now had to trust in his death and resurrection for salvation. The gospel of salvation (trusting in the death and resurrection of Jesus alone as the payment for my sin) has been the requirement for entrance in to the body and heaven since Pentecost.

Point 5: That is because you think wrongly of the keys! YOu have yet shown that the keys have been transferred to every believer either in direct quote or implication.

But if the keys were simply to open the way for the gospel to be preached to all peoples and Peter was the first to declare the gospel to all peoples (Jews, Samaritans, Gentiles) as Acts clearly shows, then once he preached to Cornelius, all doors were opened!

nolidad · Apr 29, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
The Spirit of God.

He is not a she. In Hebrew the feminine construct does not mean a her

nolidad · Apr 29, 2019

Natsumi Lam said:
Acts 2 agrees with you that many times repentance and baptism of the Holy Spirit can happen at different and seperate times.

So are you saying that people who have repented are not part of Christ as Corinthians and Romans say? So people can repent but not be saved?

Ttalkkugjil · Apr 29, 2019

nolidad said:
He is not a she. In Hebrew the feminine construct does not mean a her

Let's get back to the actual topic of the thread.

nolidad · Apr 29, 2019

Phil W said:
Don't people obey their "Lord"?
If they don't, then He is not their Lord.
People who don't love God enough to obey Him are lost.

Personally, I don't "have" to maintain a level of good works, I GET TO manifest Jesus in me by my good works.

I agree ! My good works are a result of my being saved!

Jesus is our Lord when we are obedient and when we are disobedient Children of God! Our acts do not change the sovereignty of God in our life.

So you believe that when you sin, you are lost? If not how many sins does it take to lose your salvation?

nolidad · Apr 29, 2019

Hillsage said:
FROM YOU. If the spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit of God, and that made Jesus part of the trinity, then if YOU have that same Holy Spirit in you, which you say was in Jesus, then YOU TOO should be part of the trinity. I agree it's a silly idea, but it was your idea and not mine.

Well I never said it was the Holy Spirit in Jesus that made Him part of the Trinity- Jesus by very nature is God-equal, the same but separate from the person of the Holy Spirit. I believe it is you twisting my words from their meaning. for what you wrote is not a quote from me.

nolidad · Apr 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
That's ridiculous.
How long do you think that they were speaking in tongues?
It happened in that time frame. Different days? - lol --- Wow.

You love straining the gnats. It said when they were gathered- it didn't say how long that the Spirit descended on them. They could have been together for several days in prayer for allwe know. I personally don't care. What is important is that when they were gathered (whether it was the same gathering in Acts 1 is irrelavent to me) that the Spirit descended! That is the point of the writing. If you wish to make the time frames the critical issue- that is your privilege, if that is what floats your boat!

nolidad · Apr 29, 2019

Saint Steven said:
Seriously?
What were you saying about "erroneously conflating"?

Yes seriously! That is a pure hypothetical if I wrote, because Jesus knew the nation would reject him and the offer of the kingdom to Israel would be given to a future generation. But make no mistake, starting with John the Baptist until the leaders of Israel committed the unpardonable sin- Jesus and the disciples were announcing that the long awaited kingdom was present! Matthew 12:23 to the end of the chapter shows that the leaders of Israel rejected their Messiah on the basis of demon possession and after that the entire ministry of Jesus changed and the gospel of the kingdom was no longer preached!

Even the apostles recognized the change in Jesus teaching for they asked why did he now teach in parables in Matt. 13

Natsumi Lam · Apr 29, 2019

nolidad said:
So are you saying that people who have repented are not part of Christ as Corinthians and Romans say? So people can repent but not be saved?

Hu? I am saying baptism of the Holy Spirit is different from baptism. Baptism of HS can happen seperate from repentance.

Natsumi Lam · Apr 29, 2019

Ttalkkugjil said:
The Spirit of God.

Why do you call Him a Her?

Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

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