Is Baptismal Regeneration False?

JLB777 said:

And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, Receive the Holy Spirit. John 21:22
JLB

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You do not understand that this word from Jesus was spoken prophetically. Jesus told them to go wait to get it at Pentecost...when that feast would have NT fulfillment. And when he breathed/BLEW (in Gr.) on them, it was prophetic of "rushing mighty wind" which was blowing that day of Pentecost. And the word for "RECEIVE" in this verse has nothing to do with accepting, but everything to do with 'seizing' the power from the Holy Spirit when it was going to be made available. Same thing happened at Samaria. Two different Greek words for receiving/decomai the word for salvation, versus receiving/lambano the power FROM the Holy Spirit to speak in tongues AND manifest the spiritual gifts FROM the Holy Spirit.

PS I'm still trying to catch this thread. I see Steven asked the same question. So let me add the Samarian verses for more support.

ACT 8:14 Now when the apostles at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received/DECOMAI the word of God (for salvation), they sent to them Peter and John,
15 who came down and prayed for them that they might receive/LAMBANO the Holy Spirit;(for manifesting supernatural power FROM Him)

Vines confirms where I'm coming from in stating;
"Note. There is a certain distinction between lambano and dechomai (more pronounced in the earlier, classical use), in that in many instances lambano suggests a self-prompted taking, whereas dechomai more frequently indicates "a welcoming or an appropriating reception" (Grimm-Thayer)."

Saint Steven said:

Where was the Temple located?

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The temple is not the body of Christ aka the church.

Hillsage said:

Read your quote again and tell me that you believe YOU are the third part of the triune Godhead because the Holy Spirit is in you. Consistency is a jewel to be sought for nolidad, and what you say above doesn't sit consistent with me.


Already covered this bro. Nothing in this verse says 'THE Holy Spirit'. You assume it means that because Sspirit is capitalized by men. This is not a matter of correctlytranslating Greek because there was no help for capitalization in the original Greek manuscripts. I'll post here the reason why I say that. Below is the Introduction from one of my libraries INTERLINEAR GREEK ENGLISH text books. Read this well, because these are guys who do textual criticism at a higher level than those spitting out over a 1000 different translations of the NT today.

INTERLINEAR GREEK ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT
ZONDERVAN PUBLISHED 1972. Based on STEVENS GREEK TEXT

Introduction page iii

5. Capitals.- The only remark needed here is in reference to the names of God, of Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. The greatest difficulty is touching
the word 'Spirit.' In some places it is very difficult to say whether the Holy Spirit as a person or the spirit of the Christian is referred to (see Rom.8:9) ; and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word (pneuma in the Greek) and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word (pneuma), in the Greek, persons would naturally have concluded that the question was thus indisputably settled. It was therefore judged best to put a small s in the Greek everywhere. In the English we have been obliged to put a capital S when the Holy Spirit was referred to and so have retained it wherever we thought this was the case; but in some places it is really doubtful, and becomes a question for the spiritual judgment of the reader.

The Greek will not help in the difficulty, because in the earliest copies every letter was a capital. In the other names we have followed the usage of modern editors; putting in the Greek a capital to Jesus but a small letter for Christ, and a small letter for Lord and for God.

As you can note above, these GREEK SCHOLARS are telling the READERS...US...that true understanding here, on this subject of correct capitalization, is up to the "spiritual judgment of the reader". So I guess the decision lies in His hands as to who here has chosen wisely in formulating their doctrinal box POV. And of course I think I'm right.

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Where did you find such a silly idea that I think I may be the 3rd person of the Trinity. God dwells in believers but that does not make us God!

Hillsage said:

Read your quote again and tell me that you believe YOU are the third part of the triune Godhead because the Holy Spirit is in you. Consistency is a jewel to be sought for nolidad, and what you say above doesn't sit consistent with me.


Already covered this bro. Nothing in this verse says 'THE Holy Spirit'. You assume it means that because Sspirit is capitalized by men. This is not a matter of correctlytranslating Greek because there was no help for capitalization in the original Greek manuscripts. I'll post here the reason why I say that. Below is the Introduction from one of my libraries INTERLINEAR GREEK ENGLISH text books. Read this well, because these are guys who do textual criticism at a higher level than those spitting out over a 1000 different translations of the NT today.

INTERLINEAR GREEK ENGLISH NEW TESTAMENT
ZONDERVAN PUBLISHED 1972. Based on STEVENS GREEK TEXT

Introduction page iii

5. Capitals.- The only remark needed here is in reference to the names of God, of Christ, and of the Holy Spirit. The greatest difficulty is touching
the word 'Spirit.' In some places it is very difficult to say whether the Holy Spirit as a person or the spirit of the Christian is referred to (see Rom.8:9) ; and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word (pneuma in the Greek) and if sometimes a small letter and sometimes a capital had been placed to the word (pneuma), in the Greek, persons would naturally have concluded that the question was thus indisputably settled. It was therefore judged best to put a small s in the Greek everywhere. In the English we have been obliged to put a capital S when the Holy Spirit was referred to and so have retained it wherever we thought this was the case; but in some places it is really doubtful, and becomes a question for the spiritual judgment of the reader.

The Greek will not help in the difficulty, because in the earliest copies every letter was a capital. In the other names we have followed the usage of modern editors; putting in the Greek a capital to Jesus but a small letter for Christ, and a small letter for Lord and for God.

As you can note above, these GREEK SCHOLARS are telling the READERS...US...that true understanding here, on this subject of correct capitalization, is up to the "spiritual judgment of the reader". So I guess the decision lies in His hands as to who here has chosen wisely in formulating their doctrinal box POV. And of course I think I'm right.

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I know that most manuscripts were uncial or non cap writings. the early writings were single letters formed to words. So tell if Jesus is that Spirit and where the Spirit of Jesus is-- who is that???????

Well if you think you are right- what spirit is spoken of in 2 cor.

what spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ.

So you believe there is the Spirit of Jesus and the Holy spirit??? God is a quadrinity?

I personally do not let every professed scholar tell me it is okay for me to decide. God did not leave His Word up to us to decide.
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

What I find interesting is that in Hebrew New Testaments the Word Lord is almost always translated Jehovah! So the passage would read to a Jew as Lord was the substitute word for Jehovah, Now Jehovah is that Spirit and where the Spirit of Jehovah is, there is liberty.

The bible is consistent. But I also know that context and comparison with other like passages determines exact meanings. That ios sound hermeneutics.

Saint Steven said:

I agree with you.
And just to be clear, this is not a list of REQUIREMENTS for salvation.
This is a list of the order (or lack thereof) of the elements we are discussing from the book of Acts. I'll add (optional) designations to the list.

Those who believe receive the indwelling Spirit and are therefore saved.
The baptisms follow, but are not salvation requirements. Some may disagree.

1) Believe
2) Be water baptized (optional)
3) Receive the indwelling Spirit
4) Receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit for power (manifestations) (optional)
5) Not necessarily in that order, step #4 is optional

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That does sound very pentecostal. as to #4 We are given the fulness of the spirit at the moment of salvation. We simply know and grow into what thespirit has given us and how He has empowered us.

Saint Steven said:

I think you answered your own question.
Luke sixteen is before Acts two.

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If you are referring to Luke 16:16 You are erroneously conflating the preaching of the kingdom with the church! The kingdom is the promised kingdom to Israel which is still to come. If Israel in its leadership had received Jesus as Messiah back then, He still would have died as a false king against Ceaser, but whn He rose He would have conquered Rome, subdued all temporal authority and establish the prophesied kingdom. The church was a mystery in the OT and the time of the gospels until Jesus revealed it to Peter!

Saint Steven said:

After?
How long after? Spell out the logistics. How did it work?

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Bible doesn't say so I will not speculate. Could be the same day or a different day- it appears by language it was a different day!

Hillsage said:

Splitting hairs indeed. That's why I don't want to get adversarial about any of this 'stuff'. Who cares? On judgment day God isn't going to say nolidad you walked like a saint but you had some bad doctrine "GO TO HELL! and burn until I say "WELL DONE".

No I don't think our spirit does anything but get "born from above" or "born again". And I believe that is accomplished for us just like it was for Jesus. The Holy Spirit conceived the Sspirit of Christ in Jesus and He does the same thing for our spirits. They aren't resurrected because they're dead...they are regenerated/rebirthed and become "the Sspirit of Christ in you (us), the hope of glory." There in lies the trouble with translators who know not when to capitalize Sspirit or not.


We are the body of Christ because we have the same Sspirit that Christ had IN him from birth. A birth we don't have until we are born again "BRETHREN" with him.

HEB 2:17 Therefore he had to be made like his brethren in every respect,..


It was not an ETERNAL cleansing at all nor was it ETERNAL forgiveness at all. All salvation of the OT was considered TEMPORAL for the consequence of sin HERE AND NOW. That's why we still do have to have temporal repentance for our sins so we don't 'reap and sow' the 'temporal consequence' of sin....even though the 'eternal consequence' price has been paid. Sin committed after getting saved still lead to the temporal death of our mortal bodies.


No, I missed nothing. I've believed that way for decades. We're on the same page. Personally I think that those were the keys for entrance into the kingdom...God calling AND us accepting...not for rebirth salvation, but for entrance into the kingdom of God being manifested here. Which is what the disciples did, under the authority of Jesus but not because they were born again. Being born again wasn't even available for them until after the cross.


Nor do I recognize denominations. My mother got saved as a RC. She did so not at water baptism, but at confirmation (supposed baptism of Holy Spirit ritual). She told the nun she really didn't know what confirmation was for. What the nun told her fits the definition for getting born again IMO. But I always say that when JESUS looks down at 'the Church' which He said HE WOULD BUILD....He only sees ONE CHURCH. And it is scattered through out all the divisions that the religious spirit of Satan has divided us in to.


Basically what we just said. The Rock was the 'stone/pebble' differentiation between 'the Revelation' from the father that Jesus was "the Christ" which leads to us accepting Him and receiving His Spirit of Christ in us making us "living stones" which make up the TEMPLE that the Holy Spirit dwells in. Our individual bodies are not 'the temple'. We as "living stones" and Jesus as the "cornerstone" make up the singular corporate body/temple.

EPH 2:19 So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole structure is joined together and grows into A holy temple in the Lord; 22 in whom you also are built into it for A dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

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You err because you do not understand the SCriptures!

We are born from th eSpirit in John 3 our spirit is not born.
In 2 Cor. 5: we are made a new creature and the old creature has passed away (died)
Colossians 3:3
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

It is the Spirit that lives in us and through us! We just cooperate now that we have been made spiritually alive and can fellowship with God!
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

YOu : "It was not an ETERNAL cleansing at all nor was it ETERNAL forgiveness at all. All salvation of the OT was considered TEMPORAL for the consequence of sin HERE AND NOW. That's why we still do have to have temporal repentance for our sins so we don't 'reap and sow' the 'temporal consequence' of sin....even though the 'eternal consequence' price has been paid. Sin committed after getting saved still lead to the temporal death of our mortal bodies."

Not all. The righteous dead (those living by faith not works) (Jesus was the lamb slain before the foundation of the world.) when they died went to abrahams bosom/paradise until Jesus actually shed His blood at Calvary. I do totally agree that sin causes temporal consequences for a believer.

YOu : "No, I missed nothing. I've believed that way for decades. We're on the same page. Personally I think that those were the keys for entrance into the kingdom...God calling AND us accepting...not for rebirth salvation, but for entrance into the kingdom of God being manifested here. Which is what the disciples did, under the authority of Jesus but not because they were born again. Being born again wasn't even available for them until after the cross."

Well those keys were specifically given to Peter alone. Can you show where those keys are passed to everyone???

The disciples did not preach the gospel of salvation during the time Jesus was here! They went preaching the gospel of the Kingdom to Israel alone- Jesus came first to offer Israel its prophesied and promised kingdom. They did not preach people had to trust in teh death, burial and resurrection of Jesus for the payment of their sins. This is thie gospel the church preaches- we do not preach "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!

You : "Basically what we just said. The Rock was the 'stone/pebble' differentiation between 'the Revelation' from the father that Jesus was "the Christ" which leads to us accepting Him and receiving His Spirit of Christ in us making us "living stones" which make up the TEMPLE that the Holy Spirit dwells in. Our individual bodies are not 'the temple'. We as "living stones" and Jesus as the "cornerstone" make up the singular corporate body/temple."

So the apostle Paul is a liar!
1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

1 Peter 2:5
Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

The word "as" tells us Peter is using a metaphor! We are like living stones and as the whole body we are a priesthood, but we are also individual priests unto God as well!

I agree that we are a "corporate" body! but God still indwells us as individual temples

1 Corinthians 3:16
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? singular

1 Corinthians 3:17
If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. singular!

And the Ephesians passage is also true! We as individual temples are being built into the corporate temple! The Bible clearly shows it is not either /or but both/and!

nolidad said:

That does sound very pentecostal. as to #4 We are given the fulness of the spirit at the moment of salvation. We simply know and grow into what thespirit has given us and how He has empowered us.

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I have to ask again. What went wrong in Samaria?

nolidad said:

If you are referring to Luke 16:16 You are erroneously conflating the preaching of the kingdom with the church! The kingdom is the promised kingdom to Israel which is still to come. If Israel in its leadership had received Jesus as Messiah back then, He still would have died as a false king against Ceaser, but whn He rose He would have conquered Rome, subdued all temporal authority and establish the prophesied kingdom. The church was a mystery in the OT and the time of the gospels until Jesus revealed it to Peter!

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Seriously?
What were you saying about "erroneously conflating"?

nolidad said:

Bible doesn't say so I will not speculate. Could be the same day or a different day- it appears by language it was a different day!

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That's ridiculous.
How long do you think that they were speaking in tongues?
It happened in that time frame. Different days? - lol --- Wow.

nolidad said:

Where did you find such a silly idea that I think I may be the 3rd person of the Trinity. God dwells in believers but that does not make us God!

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FROM YOU. If the spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit of God, and that made Jesus part of the trinity, then if YOU have that same Holy Spirit in you, which you say was in Jesus, then YOU TOO should be part of the trinity. I agree it's a silly idea, but it was your idea and not mine.

nolidad said:

So tell if Jesus is that Spirit and where the Spirit of Jesus is-- who is that?

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No, Jesus is not A spirit. Jesus was a triune man just like us eg. spirit, soul, flesh/body. His flesh came from God. And his Christ spirit came from God, just like our Christ spirit did.

JOH 1:14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.

Well if you think you are right- what spirit is spoken of in 2 cor.

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Seriously? Quote a verse because it is up to us to "rightly divide the word of truth" when it comes to things that need division for understanding. Didn't you read what I wrote last time in BLUE and tell you how important it was to understand what they wrote. Part of which was that you have to be spiritually mature according to the SCHOLARS to figure out what spirit is even being talked about.

what spirit baptizes us into the body of Christ.

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No spirit baptizes you. No scripture says that. Your consistency is getting more inconsistent. You just asked what spirit Jesus was, Jesus HAD A spirit, and a soul and a body of flesh/WORD.

So you believe there is the Spirit of Jesus and the Holy spirit??? God is a quadrinity?

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No, the Sspirit IN Jesus was the spirit of Christ making him "the messiah/the Christ". A "quadrinity?" You are bordering on mocking me for that which you do not understand...that is not wise nolidad. I'm trying to explain things the best I can. If that is too deep for you then maybe we should stop.

I personally do not let every professed scholar tell me it is okay for me to decide. God did not leave His Word up to us to decide.
2 Peter 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

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So who did wash your brains, scholarly speaking? If you have no defenses to offer me then calling me a 'professed scholar' when I've not called myself as such, is again manifesting a bit immaturity IMO. Did you know that Paul refused to even reveal wisdom to everyone?

What I find interesting is that in Hebrew New Testaments the Word Lord is almost always translated Jehovah! So the passage would read to a Jew as Lord was the substitute word for Jehovah, Now Jehovah is that Spirit and where the Spirit of Jehovah is, there is liberty.

The bible is consistent. But I also know that context and comparison with other like passages determines exact meanings. That ios sound hermeneutics.

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It appears to me that it is sound hermeneutics which has got you too flustered to refute what I've attempted to share solidad.

It is probably best for us to just stop now. You haven't presented anything to me that I haven't dealt with. You on the other hand haven't refuted anything either...IMO of course.

Oh, I just looked at the first line of your next post. Yep WE'RE done. You're thinking way to highly of yourself for this Christian. And you don't appear to be doing too well with Steven either, so I'll just let you devote all your....energy...into trying to deal with him.

Saint Steven said:

Sounds like you are making some progress here. Not locked into an order of events.

1) Believe
2) Be water baptized
3) Receive the indwelling Spirit
4) Receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit for power (manifestations)
5) Not necessarily in that order, step #4 is optional

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I believe that 3 and 4 are the same thing...the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Saint Steven said:

That's a can of worms.

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Let me rephrase that...(my post, that is)
Salvation does equal belief.
How many have believed only for a while?

If our salvation doesn't rest fully on the finished work of the atonement of Christ on our behalf, how can it be measured?

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By believing on the finished work of the atonement of Christ, we will see ourselves in Romans 6:7..."For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Will we do all the right things to be saved? Can we even agree on what those things might be? Who's list is correct? Are we missing something? Did you do enough? (who knows?) Could you have done more? (of course) Was it enough? (who knows) --- It's a vicious circle.

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With our newfound faith in God, we can be assured that our Lord will provide all we need in teachings, readings. and understandings to meet all our duties to God.
He will provide all the assurance for those who have elected to be His children.

But I have good news. Jesus paid it all.
When he said, "It is finished!", he meant it.

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So, no need to worry...right?

Saint Steven said:

What doctrine did they have to follow?

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I hear you.
The actions of the apostles became doctrine later.

Saint Steven said:

How could anyone be "worthy of eternal life"? (bold above) ???
As if it was a reward bestowed upon those who earned it. ?????
I suppose you were referring to this scripture.

Acts 13:46
Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

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Cornelius had repented of sin...right?
So he was a non-sinner.
He had his past sins washed away in the name of Christ Jesus...right?
So he was sanctified.
He received the gift of the Holy Ghost, the seal of the inheritance...right?
So he had been deemed worthy of life eternal.

If one is clean, and not about to be dirtied by sin again, and has the Spirit of God in them, isn't he worthy of eternal life?

nolidad said:

Point one---my bad! It was the centurion.

Point 2: Nothing undoctrinal was done- but we cannot formulate doctrine on the basis of acts- the early part of acts is a transitional time

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Why not?
If it was good enough for the apostles of our Lord, why isn't still good enough?

Baptized into Christ is baptized in the Spirit not water.

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I can't agree...not in the light of Romans 6:3,4,5.
How can the baptism of the Holy Ghost/Spirit be likened to burial, as immersion into water is?

water baptism for The church, has a trinitarian formula according to Matt. 28

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I edited the above for clarity...I hope this is what you meant.

Every time the word baptize appears it does not mean immersion in water! Romans 6 is spirit baptism.

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I agree with the first sentence, but not the second.

Acts 2: Once again people who had seen Jesus in the flesh but had not received Him as Messiah!

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From whence springeth this?

Peters keys are not an allusion! Only Peter was given the keys to the kingdom! Not the other 11 nor anyone else, nor is there some implied transference of the keys to all believers! .

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Were that true, then nobody since Peter's death would be able to enter the kingdom of God.

nolidad said:

So then you do not believe that Jesus actually died for all of our sins? You seem to hold that belief in Jesus is our ticket into paradise but that we have to maintain a certain level of good works in order to keep salvation. Am I correct? Is your theology Jesus plus works = Salvation?

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Don't people obey their "Lord"?
If they don't, then He is not their Lord.
People who don't love God enough to obey Him are lost.

Personally, I don't "have" to maintain a level of good works, I GET TO manifest Jesus in me by my good works.

Saint Steven said:

I agree with you.
And just to be clear, this is not a list of REQUIREMENTS for salvation.
This is a list of the order (or lack thereof) of the elements we are discussing from the book of Acts. I'll add (optional) designations to the list.

Those who believe receive the indwelling Spirit and are therefore saved.
The baptisms follow, but are not salvation requirements. Some may disagree.

1) Believe
2) Be water baptized (optional)
3) Receive the indwelling Spirit
4) Receive the baptism with the Holy Spirit for power (manifestations) (optional)
5) Not necessarily in that order, step #4 is optional

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If water baptism is optional, then so is the death of the old man and our resurrection with Christ to walk in newness of life.