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Is baptism necessary to be saved?
- Thread starter dldjr86
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Aaron the problem lies in your interpatation of scripture. You want to take one verse like the one above and say that a person is saved by belief and confessing ALONE. Untilizing such a technique will allow you to make the Bible teach anything that you want it to. Using your technique one verse voids anything else the Bible teaches on that topic. You would do well to take the advice of the apostles Paul.Aaron11 said:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 2:15 15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Paul understood very well that is was important to go by the whole council of God.
Acts 20:27 27 "For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.
Aaron in order to prove you view you need to find a verse that says you are saved by faith, grace or cofessing ALONE. I promise you will not find such a passage. We must look at everything that the word has to say about a given topic so that we can fully understand or know what is requried of us. Not following example.
Matthew 26:51 And suddenly, one of those who were with Jesus stretched out his hand and drew his sword, struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
Mark 14:47 And one of those who stood by drew his sword and struck the servant of the high priest, and cut off his ear.
Luke 22:50 And one of them struck the servant of the high priest and cut off his right ear.51 But Jesus answered and said, "Permit even this." And He touched his ear and healed him.
John 18:10 Then Simon Peter, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
We have all 4 of these accounts in order see the big picture. One of those with Jesus who was Peter struck the servant of the high priest who was Malchus cutting off his right ear. Jesus touched his hear and healed it.
We must use this same technique in discoving what we must do to accept the free gift of Grace. Watch how answer following questions.
Eph 2:8 am I saved by grace through faith? Yes
Rom: 10:9 am i saved by faith and confessing? Yes
Mark 16:16 am I saved by belief and baptism? Yes
Acts 2:38 am I saved by repentance and baptism? Yes
1Pet. 3:21 am i saved by baptism? yes
You see Aaron all of these things save me but none of them save by themselves it is all of them working together that save me. I stress one more time that you cannot and will not find a verse stating that one of these or two these save you ALONE.
You mentioned works. This is another topic that people get confused on. There are 2 different kinds of work. Works of merit and works of obediece. When the Bible speaks of not being justifed by works it talking about works of merit. There is absoulty nothing we can do to earn or deserve our salvation. Works of obedience however is when we obey the will of God because we love him because he first loved us. In fact Jesus put it best in folling parable.
Luke 17:7-10 7 "And which of you, having a servant plowing or tending sheep, will say to him when he has come in from the field, 'Come at once and sit down to eat'? 8 "But will he not rather say to him, 'Prepare something for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me till I have eaten and drunk, and afterward you will eat and drink'? 9 "Does he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I think not. 10 "So likewise you, when you have done all those things which you are commanded, say, 'We are unprofitable servants. We have done what was our duty to do.' "
God has done his part and now man has his part which includes works of obedience. Heb. 5:8-9 tells us that Jesus is the author of enternal salvation to those who OBEY. The holy spirit is only given to this who obey Acts 5:32. In Rom 6 Paul talks about baptism and how it puts us into Chrsit and how sins are removed by this obedient act. In the same context notice what he tells these Christians in follwing verses.
Romans 6:17-18 17 But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered. 18 And having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.
Let there be no doubt that man has his part in accepting the free gift of Grace by being obedient to the faith. Even faith is a work.
John 6:28-29 28 Then they said to Him, "What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?" 29 Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent."
James makes the following statements.
James 2:14 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?
James 2:17-20 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. 18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe -- and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.
Paul also add this.
Philippians 2:12 2 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;
Now consider this Aron. When we submit to water baptism one hand it is a work of obedience but on the other hand it our faith in the working of God.
Colossians 2:12-13 2 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
There nothing magical about the water just like there was nothing magical about the Jordan river that Naamen dipped in 7 times. Its simply what God has commanded us to do and when we humble ourselves, obey and put our faith into what God has asked us to do it is then we we have accepted his free gift of grace.
Cougan
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cougan said:Watch me workPhilo said:
This is one of my most favorite of all questions to answer:
"Therefore now there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ. (Romans 8:1)"
"For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. (Romans 6:23)"
"However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Romans 8:9)"
"Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God, who also sealed us and gave us the Spirit in our hearts as a pledge. (2 Cor 1:21-22)"
"For indeed He was crucified because of weakness, yet He lives because of the power of God. For we also are weak in Him, yet we will live with Him because of the power of God directed toward you.Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves! Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test? But I trust that you will realize that we ourselves do not fail the test. (2 Cor 13:4-6)"
"But now in Christ Jesus you who were formerly far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. (Eph 2:13)"
"For this reason I bow my knees before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with power through His Spirit in the inner man, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; and that you, being rooted and grounded in love, may be able to comprehend with all the saints what is the breadth and length and height and depth, and to know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God. (Eph 3:14-20)"
"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us. (Romans 5:1-5)"
And, drumroll please, possibly the most important and profound words ever written on this subject:
"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
"We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
"By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. We love, because He first loved us. If someone says, "I love God," and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also. (1 John 4:7-21)"
That pretty much sums up my views on the matter. I could elaborate on the specific points I think the text is making, but I'll let you puzzle through that yourself.
<3<3<3,
Philo
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And, for the last time, faith is not a work. Not, not, not a work. It is impossible for faith to be a work and still be faith. If you are reading a passage that seems to suggest faith is a work, you are misreading it... One, because they are several clear dichotomies set up between faith and works in the scriptures that wouldn't make a wit of sense if faith was a work, and two, because of this:
If you have to work at having faith, you have no faith. If already have faith, and thus don't have to work at it, then you don't have to work at it. If you have to force yourself to believe in something (which is the only way faith could be called work) then you don't really believe in the thing, otherwise you wouldn't have to force yourself to believe in it.
It's not hard to understand. It's just the same as this: I tell you that it rained yesterday. Either you immediately believe me or you immediately don't. If you believe me, you have faith in my testimony. If you don't believe me, but want to believe me, you still lack faith in my testimony, no matter how much you want to believe me despite your disbelief. See how that works? Or, um, doesn't work?
Not Paul After All,
Philo
If you have to work at having faith, you have no faith. If already have faith, and thus don't have to work at it, then you don't have to work at it. If you have to force yourself to believe in something (which is the only way faith could be called work) then you don't really believe in the thing, otherwise you wouldn't have to force yourself to believe in it.
It's not hard to understand. It's just the same as this: I tell you that it rained yesterday. Either you immediately believe me or you immediately don't. If you believe me, you have faith in my testimony. If you don't believe me, but want to believe me, you still lack faith in my testimony, no matter how much you want to believe me despite your disbelief. See how that works? Or, um, doesn't work?
Not Paul After All,
Philo
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W
western kentucky
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Philo said:
Philo,
The term "work" simply means - - something that a person must do. Believing in Jesus is a choice! It is a decision that one must make - - meaning, it is something that he/she must do! At some point in time, a person must decide to either follow Jesus or not.
John 6:28-29 - Therefore they said to Him, "what shall we do, so that we may work the works of God?" Jesus answered them and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent."
You have come to the conclusion that faith is not a work, and that baptism is a work. Where can you find this in the bible?
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W
western kentucky
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Philo said:
Sometime in the near future, I will address your first post concerning the word "eis." The information that was copied and pasted was not accurate.
Can you find me a passage in the New Testament where "eis" is used with a different meaning?
A person who claims that "eis" means (because of) in Acts 2:38 cannot squeeze this idea with other passages in the New Testament. There is no passage that suggests that one is to be baptized (because of) the remission of sins. However, there are plenty of passages that support that one is to be baptized (for) the remission of sins. Consider Acts 8:36; Acts 10:48; Acts 16:33; Acts 22:16. These verses show at least two things - - There should be a sense of urgency for one to be baptized, and that baptism is necessary. Why would baptism be necessary and urgent? Simply because one is to be baptized for the remission of his/her sins(Acts 2:38)!
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That passage from John 6 is consistantly taken out of context to "prove" that faith is a work. Consider the circumstances. The people there didn't believe Jesus' claim to be the messiah. They had come because they were hungry and wanted bread (v. 26). They then ask what they do to do the works of God... Except, still, the focus still sits on gaining delicious baked goods as evidenced by verses 31 and 32, which basically consist of the crowd insisting that He couldn't possibly be who he says he is, because he wouldn't provide bountiful pastries for their consumption. In verses 32 and 33, he tries to explain that the bread that He's trying to give them isn't real literal bread. In v 34, they still want literal bread, because they don't get what He's saying at all. Verses 35-40 record Jesus' explaining to the assembled (hungry) masses that He is the bread of life, that everyone who comes to Him will neither hunger nor thirst, that those assembled did not believe, and would as a result be cast out. In verses 41 and 42, you'd think that if the assembled people were going to heed Jesus' statement about belief being the work of God, they would have done so by now. But, they hadn't. Why? Because they didn't believe what Christ said about believing. They couldn't have faith, because they didn't have faith. Verses 43-58 record Jesus laying it out as loud and as clear as He was able, making His case. But, despite all this, they STILL didn't believe.western kentucky said:
And, interestingly enough, verse 44 says "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day," which more than anything makes the case that faith is indeed the work of God, that is, God's own working in us. This idea is actually pretty common throughout the NT scriptures, unlike the clearly contradictory idea that faith is a work.
I don't think the burden of proof lies on me to find a place where baptism is mentioned as a work in the NT. It's pretty self-explanatory. According to your definition, baptism is the thing you do to justify yourself before God. I think that falls pretty firmly into the "works" camp of all things in the universe. Since faith is said to justify us more than once, I tend to take that route more than the other...
And, since when could there not be more than one mode of faith, anyway? Why must baptism be the exclusive mode of displaying your faith? If faith is what justifies us, then everything else would be supplimental... If faith is what justifies us.
<3<3<3,
Philo
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Man, I just had something written out about all the times throughout the NT where "remission of sins" wasn't associated with baptism, but my computer went on the fritz... Maybe I'll rewrite it later.
But in the meantime, another thought. If faith is the only requirement for salvation, and repentence is a function of faith (because if you believe you are doing something wrong, the only faithful response is to want to do something right,) then saying "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" is still perfectly valid instruction.
<3<3<3,
Philo
But in the meantime, another thought. If faith is the only requirement for salvation, and repentence is a function of faith (because if you believe you are doing something wrong, the only faithful response is to want to do something right,) then saying "repent and be baptized for the remission of sins" is still perfectly valid instruction.
<3<3<3,
Philo
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Can you simply answer my question?cougan said:
Is the following statement TRUE or FALSE?
If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
True or false?
After you answer whether or not this is true, I will be willing to move on.
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So by that definition understanding is a work too right? Cause understanding is something you do.western kentucky said:
One problem with faith being a work. We are saved by faith (Bible). We are not saved by works (Bible). If we are saved by faith and not by works, that means that faith can not be a work. (Ephesians 2:8-9)
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More about that whole works definition...
If works are merely things you do the following are works
-sweating
-taking up space
-thinking
-living
-percieving
I hope this shows how WK's definition is lacking.
If works are merely things you do the following are works
-sweating
-taking up space
-thinking
-living
-percieving
I hope this shows how WK's definition is lacking.
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To Arron I already answered your question read my post again. If you want me to answer you True false question based on two elments you have provided then I will have to answer false. They only become true when you submit to what the rest of the Bible says about being saved.
Really quick lets visit the passage in John again.
John 6:27-29 27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed.
Here Jesus is telling his disciples that he will give them eternal life but they have to work for the food which abideth unto enteral life. Again, we can clearly see that God offers the gift but man has his part in accepting that gift which is a work of obedience.
Notice the disciples understood the importance of Jesus words when they said:
28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The works of God are those things he has commanded us to do. You can try and twist it but it very clear belief is a work of obedience. In Mark 16:16 belief is a command. A command is something that can be folowed and therefore is a work.
I posted this verse in my last post about baptism I will post it again.
Colossians 2:12-13 12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;
Notice that it is through our faith in the WORKING OF GOD that we know that when we are being baptized that we are being buried with Jesus we become dead to our trespassees and being made alive with Christ having all our sins forgiven. We are not saved by belife alone nor can you find such a statement in the Bible. The Bible always decribes an active faith where man does his part and God does his.
Now PHilo you didnt really answer my question specifically you just posted a bunch of scripture. Do we have to be in Christ to be saved? Absoultly These verses show that we must be in Christ to be saved. Eph. 1:3, 7 2Tim. 2:1,10, Rom 8:1, 6:23, 3:24.
The scriptures make very clear on how one gets into Christ.
Galatians 3:27 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Romans 6:3 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Paul makes its clear that baptism = being put into Christ.
I have a question that I want you to answer that will forever settle this matter about works of obedience and salvation.
In your understanding is obedience a work?
It either is or isnt and I wait for your reply.
Really quick lets visit the passage in John again.
John 6:27-29 27 Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed.
Here Jesus is telling his disciples that he will give them eternal life but they have to work for the food which abideth unto enteral life. Again, we can clearly see that God offers the gift but man has his part in accepting that gift which is a work of obedience.
Notice the disciples understood the importance of Jesus words when they said:
28 They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
The works of God are those things he has commanded us to do. You can try and twist it but it very clear belief is a work of obedience. In Mark 16:16 belief is a command. A command is something that can be folowed and therefore is a work.
I posted this verse in my last post about baptism I will post it again.
Colossians 2:12-13 12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;
Notice that it is through our faith in the WORKING OF GOD that we know that when we are being baptized that we are being buried with Jesus we become dead to our trespassees and being made alive with Christ having all our sins forgiven. We are not saved by belife alone nor can you find such a statement in the Bible. The Bible always decribes an active faith where man does his part and God does his.
Now PHilo you didnt really answer my question specifically you just posted a bunch of scripture. Do we have to be in Christ to be saved? Absoultly These verses show that we must be in Christ to be saved. Eph. 1:3, 7 2Tim. 2:1,10, Rom 8:1, 6:23, 3:24.
The scriptures make very clear on how one gets into Christ.
Galatians 3:27 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Romans 6:3 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
Paul makes its clear that baptism = being put into Christ.
I have a question that I want you to answer that will forever settle this matter about works of obedience and salvation.
In your understanding is obedience a work?
It either is or isnt and I wait for your reply.
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OK, so you are saying that Paul asserted a false statement to the Romans... can you deal with that?cougan said:
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Have you read that chapter or were you just searching for a quote to fit your view? BTW, they were not Jesus's disciples otherwise Jesus wouldn't have had that particular discussion with them. You should read the chapter to understand the context.cougan said:
Belief is a work of obedience? So do you believe just to obey? Why would you obey something before you believed it?cougan said:
I will tell you how I work: I believe something before I obey it.
Let's not get all Mormon up in this piece. Clarification- Mormons told me to start practicing their religion before I believed it... I said, "Why?". Can't you see how rediculous it would be to obey without believing? I am not asking for some super exegesis of some passage that has the english word believe and the english word work in it. I am talking about common sense.
Why do you believe what you believe? If it is because you are obeying, then it is not true belief, it is following of directions off of a preassumption. God doesn't want your mindless following, He wants your full faith, which is not something that you do, but it does something to you. Faith changes you and works will come from that. Calling belief a work is a joke.
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Aaron you obviously are not reading my post. Your making an accusation that I did not say. Is what Paul stated true absolutley. Did he say we are saved by faith and confession ALONE. No he did not. I will try one more time to show you why your argument will not work.Aaron11 said:
Ephesians 2:8 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
Paul here states that we are saved by grace through faith. Is Paul teaching a different path to salvation here than he did to the Romans?
Paul tells us how faith comes about.
Romans 10:17 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
He also says.
Romans 1:16 16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
Paul is teaching us that salvation comes from hearing the word and beliving. What else Paul?
2 Corinthians 7:10 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
Now Paul writing to the Corithans teaches them that repentance leads to salvation. Now Arron heres a real big problem for you. If repentance leads to salvation that means salvation does not occure before repentance. Since one must hear the word and belive it before they can have godly sorrow there is no way a person can be saved by belief alone since repentance leads to salvation. Further more I challenge you to state that repentance isnt a work of man because I can tell you it takes a lot of effort for a person to repent which means they turn away from what they have been doing wrong. Since repentance is work and Paul makes it clear that repentance leads to salvation you have man doing a work prior to salvation.
Paul also teaches the Colossians, Romans, and the Galatians that Baptism is the point that one is put into Christ, buried with Christ, united in his death, our old man is crucfied, our sins are removed, and we are raised up a new creature in Christ being a slave of righteousness instead of a slave of sin. Notice below.
Colossians 2:12-13 12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
Galatians 3:27 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Romans 6:2-11 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it? 3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been united together in the likeness of His death, certainly we also shall be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old man was crucified with Him, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves of sin. 7 For he who has died has been freed from sin. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him,
Do you see it not Aaron. Paul makes it clear that we die with Christ at the point of Baptism. Verse 5 makes it clear that IF IF IF IF we have united together with him in baptism which is the likness of his death only then shall we be in the likeness of his ressurection. Notice at baptism is when the body of sin is done away with when and we are no longer slaves of sin. Col 2:13 makes it clear that baptism is the point our sins are forgiven.
Paul understood what needed to be done to be saved and he preached it and he lived it. Paul learned at his conversion that he must be baptized to have his sins washed away.
Acts 22:16 16 'And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord.'
Arron if anybody could of been saved by belif alone or even repentance or some sinneres prayer it would of been Paul. He was an eye witness of Christ he was very sorry for what he had done and he fasted and prayed for 3 day before Ananias came to him and told him what else he must learn. We see that Paul was still in his sins until he arose and was baptized. I used Paul alone in this post and still have shown you that you must go by all that is said and not just part. Paul did not teach differing views on salvation he taught the same thing in all the churchs 1Cor. 4:17. I actually find it sad that I am haveing to defend that you have to go by the whole council of God and not just a verse here and there. It just plain common sense that you have to look at the big picture and not just a few pieces of the puzzle.
You are turning the word of GOd into a buffet. You get to pick and choose what you like and pass on the rest. Let me give you 2 examples.
Romans 8:24 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees?
1 Peter 3:21 21 There is also an antitype which now saves us -- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
Using your logic I could say Hey I am saved by hope for the redemption of my body. Forget all that other stuff. Or I could say all have to do is be baptized because it saves.
I really hope that you can see the flaw of your logic now.
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Hey we agree on something. Obedience is a work. However, you turn around and say that obedience has nothing to do with our salvation but obediece is has everything to do with after one is saved. So according to you there is no obedience involved in order to become saved. Aaron you have put yourself in another pickle. Now in my last post I have already shown you that repentance occures before salvation which is already a death blow to what you have stated in this post but consider the following.Aaron11 said:
Romans 8:9 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
Ephesians 1:13-14 13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and has anointed us is God, 22 who also has sealed us and given us the Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
Galatians 4:6 6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"
The Holy Spirit is a seal and a gurantee that we are sons of God and if we do not have the spirit we do not have God. I think that you will agree with me on this Aaron. No watch this.
Acts 5:32 32 "And we are His witnesses to these things, and so also is the Holy Spirit whom God has given to those who obey Him."
Notice very carefully Aaron in order to get the seal the gurantee of the Holy Spirit a person must obey God. Obedience is necessary to be saved.
We are told in many places the importantance of obedience. If you love the Lord you will obey. (Jn 14:15) Obedient will inherit heaven (Mat 7:21-23) Christ offers eternal life to those who obey him (Heb 5:8-9) It is how we know him (1Jn 2:3-4;17) It gives us the right to the tree of life (Rev 22:14) The christians were thanked for obeying the gospel (Rom 6:17) The apostle recieved Grace and their apostleship by their obidence of faith (rom 1:5).
I can go on and on but this should be enough to convince you. I hope that you wont continue to kick against the Goads and that you will accept the whole council of Gods word now.
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I have been baptised and am saved as I believe in Jesus as my Lord and Saviour and have confessed with my tongue my sins against Him. I know when myself as well as many other friends I have became Christians, we knew that there was a change in us. The Holy Spirit was now leading us and we were a new creation in Christ. I was baptised many years later but I know within my heart and soul, I was going to heaven regardless of baptism. I believe baptism is a command we are to follow as is the great commission. Obviously I have not studied the 'must be baptised' debate but I am enjoying reading the different arguments. I believe it is a way to show our love publicly to the Christ who saved us. Maybe I have been lead wrongly....and all the other Christians around me have been as well but unless the Holy Spirit can show me otherwise I dont believe it is a must in order to be saved. I believe once we believed upon Christ and confessed our sins (which the demons dont, for those people who quote that even the demons believe and tremble...that cannot be used here because they do not confess their sins and accept Jesus as their saviour...BIG difference...not even going to enter a debate as to demons being able to be saved hehe) and accept Christ as our Saviour, we are saved but we are to go and be baptised. The great commission includes this. We are not to go and get conversions...get people to say the prayer of repentance...but to preach the gospel, baptising in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit and disciple them. Unfortunately many 'great revivals' of today's era forget this and have some love story and wonderful testimony to get people all emotional and then quickly get people to say the prayer and turn them back into the streets. Many never show up in a church again as it may not even have been a genuine confession. If we pray and let the Holy Spirit lead us and do the work with us then we may see revivals with genuine confessions and then can baptise them and disciple them.
Anyhow I am soo far off the topic but in the end, there are some beliefs that are not going to change if I am in heaven or not. I know I am a child of God and therefore I desire to be baptised. The Holy Spirit would lead us there anyhow. I dont believe those who are not baptised but truly repented of their sins and believed in the name of Jesus wont be in heaven.
May God Bless you all.
Andy
Anyhow I am soo far off the topic but in the end, there are some beliefs that are not going to change if I am in heaven or not. I know I am a child of God and therefore I desire to be baptised. The Holy Spirit would lead us there anyhow. I dont believe those who are not baptised but truly repented of their sins and believed in the name of Jesus wont be in heaven.
May God Bless you all.
Andy
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