Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[Aaron11]

The only thing that really can be said about baptism is, Christ said to do it, so do it. That's it. Just say that and it will be enough.

 

[heb12-2]

We can not save ourselves no matter what we do.

If we cannot save ourselves, why did Peter say, "save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Ac. 2:40). Then notice how they responded in verse 41. They were baptized. If there's nothing we can do for our salvation, then why did those in verse 37 say, "What shall we do?" Then Peter answered them. Why didn't he correct them and say, "There's nothing you can do"?

Christ saves us by His grace when we believe on Him. When someone truly believes on Christ, they will follow His teachings. His teachings include baptism. Baptism is part of our obedience to Christ, however our obedience is not what pays for our salvation.

This paragraph would be acurate if you left out the last sentence. Now I do believe in grace, and I don't believe we "pay for our salvation", but obedience does play a part in salvation:

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;" (Heb. 5:9)

Are you asking if there will be people in heaven that were not baptized who lived in the NT? If it is fair and merciful, yes. If it is not fair and not merciful, then no.

The only way we can know what is "fair and merciful" is by reading the scriptures. If God says, "except ye be born of water and spirit" (Jn. 3:5a), but you say, "no you don't have to", does that make you more "fair and merciful" than God? When God says he "cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:5b) and you say, "yes he can", are you trying to say that God is not "fair and merciful"?

Personally, I believe

What you personally believe must be tested with the scriptures. If your belief do not line up, then you need to change your belief.

that there will be at least some people who lived in NT times and weren't baptized by immersion that will be in heaven, but that is just because I think it is just and merciful.

Then can you name any examples. What you or I think is just and merciful doesn't establish truth.

Since I know God is just and merciful, I try to guess what He will do according to those standards.

guess???

However, we are not the ones who decide who is saved and who isn't, therefore my guess is as valuable as yours.

You are right that your "guess" is as valuable as mine. Our "guess" is not "valuable" at all.

 

[heb12-2]

Question is in Salvation did God provide everything in our salvation at the cross

Yes, God has done his part, but we must also do ours. If there is nothing required of us, then why isn't everyone saved?

{john 6:29..God's work}

Also, the cleansing that takes place in BAPTISM is the "operation of God" (Col. 2:12). That doesn't sound like a "works salvation" does it?

or can man work for their salvation [put into Christ]

Right, "man can not work for their salvation". But that doesn't mean that obedience is not necessary.

sorry if you believe this Matt 7:21-23

You need to read Mt. 7:21 again. It says that those who enter heaven are those that "doeth the will" of the Father.

 

[heb12-2]

Forgive me oh holy heb 12

The point I was trying to make, (even if there was a point at all), is that those kids are just making post randomly and are trying to get 1000 post.

I find it somewhat interesting/discouraging that we are beating them.

Lighten up some Heb. "Thou shall not be legalistic" It's not in the bible but sounds good anyways, hmm ya gonna throw a few bible veres at me all that I have thus far? even though I am just speaking my mind? Get a life heb, for real. Relax, take a vaction, and think about what you can learn from the bible and through prayer, not what you can throw back at people.

Why is it discouraging if we are beating the teens? I am not posting at random in order to beat some record. The thing I can't understand is you keep posting too, so whatever discouragement you are getting, you are contributing to it yourself.

So what if I did "throw a few Bible verses" at you? Why would that bother you? It wouldn't bother me if you "throw a few bible verses at me". Go ahead, let me have it! If the truth condemns me, I have no problem in repenting. I love the truth, so it doesn't bother me to see scripture.

"O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day." (Ps. 119:97)

By the way, were you trying to "throw" something back at me when you accused me of throwing scripture at you? See, that's why your statements like these are so hypocritical.

Why do you have a right to "speak your mind", but you want me to "lighten up" with the scripture? Again, all I am hearing from you is like you're saying, "Stop using the scripture". Have you ever wondered that maybe that's why things that are "not in the Bible", "sounds good anyways" to you. And mabye that's why you don't want anyone to "throw a few bible verses" at you.

"And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (Jn. 3:19-21)

 

[heb12-2]

Some of the things you say absolutly astonishes me....

I really wish you could hear yourself on the flip side of things. It disgusts me to a very extreme degree.

I can tell you're disgusted. Maybe that's why you should take your own advice and "take a vacation". But the thing I can't understand is why you are disgusted at a guy for quoting scripture. The Jews were disgusted at Stephen "to a very extreme dregree" too. But you know they had to kill him to get him out of that debate. "I am set for the defence of the gospel." (Phil. 1:17).

Knowledge is power- you are abusing it. Stop.

Here you go trying to get me to stop using scripture again.

"And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye. For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard." (Ac. 4:18-20)

**waits for the several other verses you are going to throw back at me**

Ok, then consider this one: "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" (Gal. 4:16).

**also waits for you to say: "where is YOUR scripture, Arch Angel?"**

Well, I may as well say it, then. "where is YOUR scripture, Arch Angel?"

Your actions cleary show the lack of wisdom you posses that is to go hand in hand with what you are preaching.

What actions? Quoting scripture?

Your statement is hyprocritical to the core. Here is real wisdom:
"The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding." (Prov. 9:1-10);

Here is the lack of wisdom:
"For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the LORD: They would none of my counsel: they despised all my reproof." (Prov. 1:29).

Side note:
You obviously have no clue about proper debating. I suggest you read a book about debating. In debating, both sides are EXPECTED to present their views vigorously. It is proper to show the fallacy in the opposing view. That IS THE POINT of a debate. Both sides present their view while others watch and decide for themselves.

This must take place in order to have a good debate. It stifles the debate if hecklers from the crowd interrupt with distracting remarks about the debate. When there appears a flaw in one's view, it is EXPECTED that the other debater will attempt to point that out. It should not be taken as unkind or unloving.

If the concept of debating bothers you, then post somewhere else. This is a debate thread. It must go on.

 

[heb12-2]

I have come to the conclusion that people who believe that they need to be baptised to be saved is due to the fact that over their life time, they wanted to make sure they were saved.

Eternal insecurity.

Yes, once again, no scripture. So sorry. But trust me, I have my reasons.

You are correct about you using no scripture. Therefore, you've proven nothing.

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ" (Rom. 1:16)

 

[Aaron11]

If we cannot save ourselves, why did Peter say, "save yourselves from this untoward generation" (Ac. 2:40). Then notice how they responded in verse 41. They were baptized. If there's nothing we can do for our salvation, then why did those in verse 37 say, "What shall we do?" Then Peter answered them. Why didn't he correct them and say, "There's nothing you can do"?

I didn't say that there aren't things that we need to do to secure our salvation. Those things are all included in the phrase, "believing on Christ". If someone truly believes on Christ, he will follow His way. I know that faith in Christ is not living faith unless it is put into action. Please don't try to tell me that baptism pays the price for our transgressions. That was my point.

 

[Aaron11]

This paragraph would be acurate if you left out the last sentence. Now I do believe in grace, and I don't believe we "pay for our salvation", but obedience does play a part in salvation:

Funny how you said my paragraph is innaccurate and then you go on and agree with my point. I never said that obedience isn't related to salvation, I said that it does not PAY FOR OUR SALVATION, just like you agreed.

 

[Aaron11]

Yes, God has done his part, but we must also do ours. If there is nothing required of us, then why isn't everyone saved?

What would you say our part is?

 

[heb12-2]

I didn't say that there aren't things that we need to do to secure our salvation. Those things are all included in the phrase, "believing on Christ". If someone truly believes on Christ, he will follow His way. I know that faith in Christ is not living faith unless it is put into action. Please don't try to tell me that baptism pays the price for our transgressions. That was my point.

Neither faith nor baptism "pays the price for our transgressions", but both are necessary to receive God's gift of salvation.

 

[heb12-2]

What would you say our part is?

Hear (Rom. 10:17)
Believe (Eph. 2:8-9)
Repent (Lk. 13:3)
Confess (Rom. 10:9-10)
Be Baptized (Ac. 22:16)
Then live faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10)

 

[Aaron11]

The only way we can know what is "fair and merciful" is by reading the scriptures. If God says, "except ye be born of water and spirit" (Jn. 3:5a), but you say, "no you don't have to", does that make you more "fair and merciful" than God? When God says he "cannot enter into the kingdom of God" (Jn. 3:5b) and you say, "yes he can", are you trying to say that God is not "fair and merciful"?

So what about the people who never hear the name of Jesus Christ? Will they not be saved because they weren't dunked in His name? If you think you can answer who will be saved and who won't just from the bible, then tell me that.

Here is another one. How about an illiterate woman in a 3rd world country who has no bible and has no way of knowing that Jesus wants her to be baptized, but she knows that Jesus died for her and she has decided to live for Him.

How about the person who has decided to be baptized and is going to the water and dies before they get the chance to get dunked.

Here are three examples where I can not say FOR SURE what God will do. However, since I believe God to be a merciful and loving God, and because I know that He saved some of the gentiles based on their good nature and Godliness (Rom2:14-16), I would GUESS that God will have mercy on those who truly seek Him. However, I am not willing to fight tooth and nail with someone over this matter because I DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE. And guess what, neither do you. However, since you seem confident that you can tell who is saved and who is not saved by the word of God, I would like you to determine the three cases above. Would they be saved or not?

PS- This question is especially for Heb, however, whoever thinks they can pronounce judgement on other peoples soul using the word of God, go right ahead.

 

[heb12-2]

Funny how you said my paragraph is innaccurate and then you go on and agree with my point. I never said that obedience isn't related to salvation, I said that it does not PAY FOR OUR SALVATION, just like you agreed.

I'm sorry. I must have misunderstood you. So you believe obedience is necessary for salvation? Then what's your hang up with baptism then?

 

[Aaron11]

Then live faithful unto death (Rev. 2:10)

So no sinning? I know that we all will sin. Are you saying that if you live a generally God-driven life (plus the "5 steps"), that is what will get you to heaven?

 

[Aaron11]

I'm sorry. I must have misunderstood you. So you believe obedience is necessary for salvation? Then what's your hang up with baptism then?

I think saying that obedience is necessary for salvation is misleading. I think that people who choose Christ are saved and I think that people who choose Christ follow His way.

However I think that if you are going to say that obedience is necessary for salvation, you have to be a little more specific, because no one is going to obey God perfectly.

 

[Aaron11]

What you personally believe must be tested with the scriptures. If your belief do not line up, then you need to change your belief.

Maybe you are misunderstanding my tone or something. I do not personally believe things and then try to make scripture line up with it. I look at what I know of the gospel (from scriptures and thought) and then I make connections and try to find the truth. The end product is what I personally believe.

 

[heb12-2]

So what about the people who never hear the name of Jesus Christ? Will they not be saved because they weren't dunked in His name? If you think you can answer who will be saved and who won't just from the bible, then tell me that.

Here is another one. How about an illiterate woman in a 3rd world country who has no bible and has no way of knowing that Jesus wants her to be baptized, but she knows that Jesus died for her and she has decided to live for Him.

I am not the judge. All I know is what is revealed in the scriptures. I believe these scriptures answer your question.
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Ac. 17:30)
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (2 Thes. 1:8)

How about the person who has decided to be baptized and is going to the water and dies before they get the chance to get dunked.

This example does not rule out baptism for salvation. If it did, then faith would be ruled out for the athiest that is going to hear the gospel and dies before he gets a chance to hear the sermon to have faith. We cannot loosen God's requirements for hypothetical situations.

Here are three examples where I can not say FOR SURE what God will do. However, since I believe God to be a merciful and loving God, and because I know that He saved some of the gentiles based on their good nature and Godliness (Rom2:14-16), I would GUESS that God will have mercy on those who truly seek Him. However, I am not willing to fight tooth and nail with someone over this matter because I DO NOT KNOW FOR SURE. And guess what, neither do you. However, since you seem confident that you can tell who is saved and who is not saved by the word of God, I would like you to determine the three cases above. Would they be saved or not?

I agree with you that God is merciful. But again, as far as what happens to certain ones in certain situations can only be known by what God has chosen to reveal to us. I provided the scriptures. Truth should be applied to situations, not adapt the truth to fit the situations. But the real issue is this. Since those cases are not your situation, why not be baptized "for the remission of sins" (Ac. 2:38) today, so you don't have to concern yourself with those scenarios?

PS- This question is especially for Heb, however, whoever thinks they can pronounce judgement on other peoples soul using the word of God, go right ahead.

I am not pronouncing any judgement. I have simply stated what the scriptures say.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Peace be with you!

I believe Baptism is very important for Salvation.

The Lord bless you.
Yaqubos†

 

[Aaron11]

I am not the judge. All I know is what is revealed in the scriptures. I believe these scriptures answer your question.
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:" (Ac. 17:30)
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:" (2 Thes. 1:8)


This example does not rule out baptism for salvation. If it did, then faith would be ruled out for the athiest that is going to hear the gospel and dies before he gets a chance to hear the sermon to have faith. We cannot loosen God's requirements for hypothetical situations.


I agree with you that God is merciful. But again, as far as what happens to certain ones in certain situations can only be known by what God has chosen to reveal to us. I provided the scriptures. Truth should be applied to situations, not adapt the truth to fit the situations. But the real issue is this. Since those cases are not your situation, why not be baptized "for the remission of sins" (Ac. 2:38) today, so you don't have to concern yourself with those scenarios?


I am not pronouncing any judgement. I have simply stated what the scriptures say.

And you are taking a guess at what God will do. That is what I am doing also. Our guesses are different and both have valid points. Of course that I feel that mine is more convincing, because otherwise I wouldn't believe how I do. Same is true for you: Obviously you feel that your points are more convincing, because otherwise you would believe differently. The thing to remember is, our guesses are just that.

 

[YAQUBOS]

N.B.: Saddam is a human, and you must respect him.