Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[HChristfirst]

It has taken me a few days to get back. I hope all are well and continuing to search the scriptures to see if what is being said is so. In my last post I submitted that true faith that God counts as righteousness and that saves by Gods grace is Faithfulness.
We see this in the very beginning at creation. Adam and eve had a choice to voluntarily submit to what God said (You can eat of every tree in the garden except one. And the day you eat of it you will surely die) They voluntarily submitted to satan and not God. They voluntarily made the choice to not be faithful to God in what He asked of them. As we go forward through time we see the same theme through out the entire Bible and through time. God wants mankind to voluntarily submit to Him and His will in faith, which when they do becomes faithfulness. In the book of 2 Samuel 15:1-35 we read of Saul being told through the prophet Samuel to completely destroy the Amalekites and all their possessions. So Saul set out with his army and attacked and destroyed them but kept Agag the king and the best of everything that could be sacrificed to God but destroyed all the things that were detestable in Gods sight.
Saul said I have done all that the Lord has commanded me but Samuel said no you have not. Saul said I have, Samuel said then what is this bleeting of the sheep and the lowing of the oxen I hear in my ears. v.s 22-23 says- And Samuel said, Has the Lord as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams. For rebillion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He has also rejected you from being king." Here we have an example of someone interpreting what they believe or think God meant. Saul could say it depends on how you interept what God has said. This is the way I interpreted what He told me to do and He will understand. Saul had a choice. To voluntarily submit to what God said in faith or not. To submit in faith would be faithfulness. But Saul made the choice to go with what he thought God had said or what he wanted to do just as we do today. Human nature is the same through out time. There is no difference between us and Saul we all make the choice to voluntarily submit to what God asks or not. To be faithful or not. Just as God wants voluntary submission to Him by Christians, He also wants voluntary submission for all those who want to become children of His through His Son. God wants faithfulness from Christians and those who want to become Christians. I will close for Now thank you for your reading this and please search the scriptures to see if these things are so. In Christian Love

 

[HChristfirst]

It has taken me a few days to get back. I hope all are well and continuing to search the scriptures to see if what is being said is so. In my last post I submitted that true faith that God counts as righteousness and that saves by Gods grace is Faithfulness.
We see this in the very beginning at creation. Adam and eve had a choice to voluntarily submit to what God said (You can eat of every tree in the garden except one. And the day you eat of it you will surely die) They voluntarily submitted to satan and not God. They voluntarily made the choice to not be faithful to God in what He asked of them. As we go forward through time we see the same theme through out the entire Bible and through time. God wants mankind to voluntarily submit to Him and His will in faith, which when they do becomes faithfulness. In the book of 2 Samuel 15:1-35 we read of Saul being told through the prophet Samuel to completely destroy the Amalekites and all their possessions. So Saul set out with his army and attacked and destroyed them but kept Agag the king and the best of everything that could be sacrificed to God but destroyed all the things that were detestable in Gods sight.
Saul said I have done all that the Lord has commanded me but Samuel said no you have not. Saul said I have, Samuel said then what is this bleeting of the sheep and the lowing of the oxen I hear in my ears. v.s 22-23 says- And Samuel said, Has the Lord as much delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as in obeying the voice of the Lord? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to heed than the fat of rams. For rebillion is as the sin of divination, and insubordination is as iniquity and idolatry. Because you have rejected the word of the Lord, He has also rejected you from being king." Here we have an example of someone interpreting what they believe or think God meant. Saul could say it depends on how you interept what God has said. This is the way I interpreted what He told me to do and He will understand. Saul had a choice. To voluntarily submit to what God said in faith or not. To submit in faith would be faithfulness. But Saul made the choice to go with what he thought God had said or what he wanted to do just as we do today. Human nature is the same through out time. There is no difference between us and Saul we all make the choice to voluntarily submit to what God asks or not. To be faithful or not. Just as God wants voluntary submission to Him by Christians, He also wants voluntary submission for all those who want to become children of His through His Son. God wants faithfulness from Christians and those who want to become Christians. I will close for Now thank you for your reading this and please search the scriptures to see if these things are so. In Christian Love

I know the topic is is baptism necessary to be saved but it seems to me we need to Go back to the beginning the root of all we do and all God wants form mankind submission to Him and His will. So in the next few posts I will with Gods help end at the question :o) In Christian Love

 

[evangelist]

Isn`t water baptism a ritual, and A tradition?

 

[aggie03]

Isn`t water baptism a ritual, and A tradition?

It's a command from God.

 

[evangelist]

It's a command from God.

By you saying it is a command which I agree you are saying it is no way a ritual or a tradition is this correct???


God commands alot of things including praiseing the Lord , going to church, helping the poor and etc.

At what time is this command to be done biblically?

What I mean is like at what order of time, like do I read the bible first before getting saved or do I witness before repenting do you understand?


God Bless

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

aggie go back to last post on 110

 

[aggie03]

Salvation is when the H.S. comes to one that believes God did it all...

what is he saved from Hell in the Future but better yet one get to be in the presence of the Lord....

one is saved in spirit right now and the flesh and soul during the rapture

is that what you are asking???

That's most of what I wanted to know, thanks! There's just one more question: when do you believe that one's sins are forgiven?

 

[amberrose]

as soon as you have accepted Christ as your Lord and saviour

 

[aggie03]

By you saying it is a command which I agree you are saying it is no way a ritual or a tradition is this correct???

I imagine that would depend on how you are going to define ritual or tradition. If by those words you are referring to something that man decided should be done, then no, it is neither one. It is a command from God

God commands alot of things including praiseing the Lord , going to church, helping the poor and etc.

That's right. God has also said that if we love Him we will keep His commandments (John 14:21). You've agreed that baptism is a command, so at the very least this means that if we love the Lord we'll do it. Can you be saved without loving the Lord? The Scriptures also say that we will abide in the love of Christ if we keep His commandments (John 15:10). Can we be saved without abiding in the love of Christ?

Evangelist, I have to go to class now, but I'll come back and answer the last question of your post, which is, I believe, a very important question. I'm glad you've asked it. I'll be back on here as soon as possible

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

That's most of what I wanted to know, thanks! There's just one more question: when do you believe that one's sins are forgiven?

When He died on the cross....

why does on go to hell.....

#1 one believes he can get to heaven on his own merit...
#2 second believes there is no God

 

[Jephthah]

When He died on the cross....

why does on go to hell.....

#1 one believes he can get to heaven on his own merit...
#2 second believes there is no God

The Bible teaches that there are more reasons than that...

But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death. (Revelation 21:8 KJV)

That's just one place, I'm sure if we looked we could find more.

Also, believing that you're there based on your own merit doesn't mean that God does everything (i.e. make you believe). It only means that you didn't do anything to merit, or earn, your salvation, but instead you are saved because God has extended His grace to you when you have met all of the conditions placed on salvation.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

once you believe since He put US in to thee Christ

He counts us like Christ perfect

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin

Hebrew 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more

2 cor 5:18 And all things are of God who hath changed us to himself by JC and hath given to us the ministry of reconcilation

 

[Jephthah]

I don't understand what you're trying to say in your last post...could you go over that again for me?

 

[Aaron11]

SO you think that nothing in the New Testament Scriptures, apart from where Jesus speaks, can be trusted?

No, I just don't think they are the necessarily the very words of God. Just because someone's letter or historical account is not word for word from God does not keep it from being trustworthy and true.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

once you believe since He put US in to thee Christ

He counts us like Christ perfect

Romans 4:8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin

This verse added with 1 john 1:8-10 and romans 3:23

it is clear we are still sinner right now even though we have been partially regenerated: only the Spirit has been regenerated since the flesh battles the spirit for control of our soul.....two desireous wills
eph 5:17-23, 1thes 5:23..plus since God is spirit this makes since he is spirit John 4:24 then that where he indwells

Hebrew 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more

2 cor 5:18 And all things are of God who hath changed us to himself by JC and hath given to us the ministry of reconcilation

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His unique begotton Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have eternal life

Can not get even though true to those believe or not believe ...its in the bank all you need is to grap it for your own.....

 

[evangelist]

The way i look at this water baptism is like you have a car and you know the motor is the main part of the car and it is important and when you have the motor which i say is the believing and the faith, and the gas, oil is the repentance ,the frame of the car is word of God, and the key to run the car your heart and confession Rom 10:9,10.

Now the seats window,rado,mirror, and etc is like the water baptism , but still without these things your car will still run and you still have a car.

the same is with the salvation message you are also saved before the water baptism.

The way some people mix water baptism with the good new of belief and faith and Jesus alone is like they take the gas , and mix it with the oil and say put the gas in the motor where you put only the oil in the motor, and mix the two together like they try to mix mark 16:16 and say this goes together.

God Bless

 

[HChristfirst]

Inregards to baptism being necessary for salvation. Through out the old and new testament we see that God wanted mans dependants on Him. He wanted mankind to voluntarily submit to His will. And yes even in the Old testament he wanted them to voluntarily submit to Him in faith. There is no
difference in the New testament. God wants voluntary submission to his will and what He asks of Mankind. When one searches for God and he learns of God faith begings to develope and grow and God through His spirit convicts a person of sin whether by them reading the word or by hearing the word presented. Then man has a choice to voluntarily submit to what God asks in faith or not. Where does baptism come into the picture?? Question is Confessing Christ something asked of man by God? When we confess Christ we confess in faith and by our confessing Christ with or mouth we arevoluntarily submitting to what God has asked. There is action on our part Confessing with our mouth in faith which Equals faithfulness. How about repentance? Does God ask all men to repent? Yes He does Acts 17:30 so when one repents of sin when becoming a part of Christ then he again is Voluntarily submitting to what God has asked in faith which equals faithfulness. How about Being baptized. Does God ask mankind to be baptized? Again the answer is yes. When one voluntarily submits to baptism in faith He is volantarily submitting to what God has asked of mankind in faith which equals faithfulness. Where the problem comes in is is baptism necessary to become a christian? My question is: Are repentance and confession necessary for salvation? Necessary in the sence that God has asked mankind to voluntarily submit to what He has asked for the reasons He
has asked. God has requested us to repent and confess Christ and also to be Baptized all for the reasons He says and not what we say or think.
Repentance is necessary Confession is necessary and baptism is necessary not because the acts themselfes earn salvation which they don't but that submitting to Gods will and the fact He has asked us to do these things in faith will through the grace of God put us into that relation ship whith Christ.
Which is faithfulness which is faith that saves through Grace. Hebrews chapter 11 shows some people of faith and everyone of them showed faithfulness because what they did in faith submitting to what God asked was faithfulness and the faith God saw as righteousness. I will close for now email me if you like and we can discuss this in more detail. In Christian Love

 

[aggie03]

Evangelist, Hi!

I'm interested to hear a response from you regarding what I've said in this post: http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=1590186&postcount=1109

At what time is this command to be done biblically?

I'm glad that you've asked this question. Part of the reason why I believe that there has come to be such an aversion to baptism is because of false teachings about baptism that have no basis in the Scriptures. So we'll look at what the Scriptures teach on the subject.

Acts 2:37-38 ASV

Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do? (38) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

The very first thing that happened on the day of Pentecost was that the Jews heard the word of God. This is explained in Romans 10:17 in that faith cometh by hearing, and hearing the word of Christ.

After they heard Peter they were pricked in their hearts. The word of God did something to them and they believed that Jesus was the Christ (v. 36) and that they had crucified the Son of God. This belief is what caused them to ask Peter "What shall we do?"

Peter responds to them saying "Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins"

So we have the answer to what they had to do. They had heard the word, and upon believing they should repent of their sins and then be baptized into Christ.

This one section of Scripture doesn't have everything though, and as I'm always saying, we must consider the SUM of God's word.

Acts 8:35-38 ASV

And Philip opened his mouth, and beginning from this Scripture, preached unto him Jesus. (36) And as they went on the way, they came unto a certain water; and the eunuch saith, Behold, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? (37) And Philip said, If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (38) And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him.

Philip preached Jesus to the Eunuch. From this preaching the Eunuch understood that he needed to be baptized. This means that being baptized in the name of Christ was part of preaching Jesus.

It's also of importance there that when the Eunuch asks what hinders him from being baptized Philip replies "If thou believest with all thy heart, thou mayest" This necessarily means that belief must come before one is baptized. There is no inherent power in the water, but as Colossians 2:12 states God works through our faith when we are baptized to raise us. Also notice that the Eunuch confesses his belief in Christ before he is baptized.

So when we consider these two passages one must hear the word of God, believe from that hearing, their belief must spur them on to repentance and confession of Christ and then one is to be baptized for the remission of sins.

What I mean is like at what order of time, like do I read the bible first before getting saved or do I witness before repenting do you understand?

I hope that I've covered this in what I've written above. If you have any other questions just let me know, and I'm looking forward to hearing back from you

 

[aggie03]

The way i look at this water baptism is like you have a car

I believe that this is a decent analogy, but there are some things that we have to define first. For instance what it means when the car starts to run. We are going to assume that the car isn't going to travel anywhere, we just want to get it started. This means, then, that when the car starts one has become a child of God.

and you know the motor is the main part of the car and it is important and when you have the motor which i say is the believing and the faith,

If we're going to go through and establish certain things as being members of the car, then we are going to have to support what we establish with Scripture. I agree that we'll make our engine represent faith:

Hebrews 11:6 ASV

And without faith it is impossible to be well-pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him.

If we do everything else correctly, put in all the fluids and turn the key, the car will not run if there's no engine. It impossible to start the car without the engine.

and the gas, oil is the repentance,

I am going to establish the word of God as the gas. My reasoning being for this is that it is the word of God that fuels our faith.

Romans 10:17 ASV

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 ASV

Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness. (17) That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work.

Dealing with the oil, I am going to establish that as repentance. Christ tells us that if we don't repent we will perish (Luke 13:3,5). When we repent of our sins we are changing the way that we think about them, in essence, removing them from our life. Likewise, the oil keeps impurities out of the engine to maintain a smoothe running faith once the car has been started.

the frame of the car is word of God,

The frame of the car isn't necessary in order to have a running engine. If we had all of the components hooked together without any kind of chassis we could still get a running engine - so I'm going to leave the frame out of our scenario

and the key to run the car your heart and confession Rom 10:9,10.

W can make the key confessing Christ. However, the key does not run the car. When you turn the key there's still something else that has to be there in order for the car to run...the starter. That starter is baptism. If you turn the key and there's no starter, your car isn't going to run.

This brings us to the final part: the power behind it all.

Colossians 2:12 ASV

having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

God is the battery. When everything has been put together and the key is inserted in the ignition, the starter is ready to turn the engine over and the current from the battery to run through the distributor coil to the spark plugs which then ignites the gas. This is God working through our faith when we have met all of the conditions that He has outlined as being necessary for our salvation. When we put everything together that is necessary, it is really God who starts the car.

the same is with the salvation message you are also saved before the water baptism.

The car will not run without the starter, you cannot be saved without being baptized into Christ, for the remission of your sins.

The way some people mix water baptism with the good new of belief and faith and Jesus alone is like they take the gas , and mix it with the oil and say put the gas in the motor where you put only the oil in the motor, and mix the two together like they try to mix mark 16:16 and say this goes together.

I disagree. Those who believe that baptism is necessary and is for the remission of sins are those who have all the parts to their car Those who say otherwise are trying to start their car some missing pieces. Searching through the Scriptures to learn what the SUM of God's word says is absolutely necessary. The sum of God's word teaches that all of the things I've outlined in this scenario are necessary.

I believe that it is a very vain and presumptuous thing to say that Jesus was wrong when He said in Mark 16:16 that he who believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

I look forward to hearing back from you and reading your thoughts on this.

 

[evangelist]

aggie03I says: "I disagree. Those who believe that baptism is necessary and is for the remission of sins are those who have all the parts to their car. Those who say otherwise are trying to start their car some missing pieces."


Let´s look at a few Scriptures that, I believe, will shed some light into this subject...

First, we are told throughtout Scripture that Jesus is our salvation, not water.

"Fix your eyes upon Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith..."

The question I ask you, my friend, is this, does water begin or finish your faith? Does water or Jesus begin and perfect your faith? The Scripture, the truth, tells us Jesus perfects our faith not water.

Secondly, can one find righteousness through water or through Christ? The Scripture states we find righteousness through Christ.

"For it is by believing in his heart that a man becomes right with God..."

"..that we might be the righteousness of God in Him..."

Water is not righteousness but Christ is.