Is baptism necessary to be saved?

Polycarp1 said:

Gotta object to several ideas being thrown into the pot here.

First, the idea that God operates under dispensations that differ over timeis very much human-based. From an eternal perspective, Jesus's self-sacrifice in Atonement was not a demarcating point in time, so that those who died after that point were saved (or not) differently than those who went before -- If Jesus, in the process of paying the ultimate price for our sins, forgave the thief on the cross without recourse to whether he followed a set formula, it's the height of arrogance to put ourselves above God the Son and say otherwise.

Rather, He paid the debt for all sins, from Eve's to the last sin at the end of time. When someone died has no bearing on the question of Christ's Atonement for them. Are we to say of two men killed in a battle in Outer Mongolia that coincidentally took place on the first Good Friday that the one who was killed instantly was under the old dispensation and the one who lingered till evening before dying of his wounds was under the new?

Click to expand...

You are missing the entire context of the Old Testament if this is what you believe. God has changed the rules several times throughout history. Adam and Eve and the fall for one. What about before the 10 commandments were given? What about the patriarchs, then the prophets, then the kings? The purpose of the Old Testament was to prove to humanity that we cannot save ourselves...we require grace. Christs death and resurrection gave us a new law (other than the law of moses) where Christ's sacrifice acted as a universal sacrifice for those that follow him. The thief died under the law of moses and is subject to such. Christ had every right to forgive him on the cross w/o baptism because the old law had not passed away yet.

It pays to at least read the last 3 pages of the topic HMM....

I went to a Pauline church for about a year and they never baptise anyone and the Paster, 90 years old, had never been baptised. He spent virtually his entire adult life preaching the Gospel and ministering to the body of Christ, but he was never baptised. I don't think it was a salvation issue, I pressed them hard and often on doctrinal issues, and they stood up pretty well. In fact the world mission headquaters for their rather small mission field was in the same church building and I didn't see them deny any vital doctrine (sin, rightousness, repentance, of final judgment) in any way.

I don't have the article anymore but I gave them a writting by John Wesley, (who BTW, believed that baptism was an initiating rite of the NT covenant) saying he didn't care how you baptised, or whether you baptised at all, 'only', he said, 'give me your hand'.

For whatever reason baptism is important to you Apathe, and God must have some reason for putting that in your heart. I say God bless you, walk in the light as you see the light. I also appreciate the fact that you understand that there are times when refusing to be baptised could be in defiance of the Gospel. I think we can both agree that ultimately it is God who uncovers the thoughts and inclinations of the heart.

Grace and peace

There is one thing that seperates christianity from any other religion, and the one thing, one word, is Grace.

Even a rebellion to a commandment will stop or destroy Gods Grace. If you are unsaved, you are not under the law of Grace, however, once you have accepted Christ into your heart and love him with you heart mind and soul, you then you held accountable to those standards.
If someone who is unsaved, an they are constantly sinning, would you just simply pray that they stop sinning, or would you pray thay they accept Christ?????
The answer should be pretty simple.
Now if baptism is a commandment, then those needing baptism must already be what? UNDER THE LAW OF GRACE. which means they were already saved.

Your thoughts.

phaedrus said:

Were it an isolated text I might be inclined to agree, but it is not.

"All the prophets testify about Him that everyone that believes in Him recieves the forgiveness of sins. While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit came on all who heard the message." (Acts 10:43,44)

Click to expand...

Receipt of the Holy Spirit did not indicate these people were saved. In fact as soon as Peter realized what happened he ordered them to be baptized. This is simply an example where God/Christ was trying to get Peter to understand that the new law and salvation was not for the Jews alone but for everyone now.

phaedrus said:

The seal of the Spirit is the mark of savation, "who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession...(Eph. 1:13). Salvation came prior to baptism and this is undeniable. The importance of Baptism in the early church was due to a need for people to identify with Christ. It represents a commitment and is simular to an oath.

Click to expand...

You're reading that verse out of context. It is not saying that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are a mark of salvation. The context of this whole paragraph is an explanation to Gentiles that they are included in the gift of salvation. You last statement goes against all known early church history. As I have already stated, Baptism was considered ESSENTIAL for salvation throughout the 1st and 2nd century even to the point that the heresy of infant baptism arose (which is still practiced by Catholics and other denominations today).

phaedrus said:

"In it (the Ark) only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also-not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge, (or response, taken from NIV footnote), of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (IPeter 3:20,21)

Click to expand...

This passage CLEARLY equates baptism with salvation. Our faith causes us to be baptized with gives us salvation. If Noah had faith but didn't build the ark he would have been lost. His action THROUGH FAITH saved him. Our baptism THROUGH FAITH saves us.

phaedrus said:

You cannot add baptism to faith for salvation without discarding the primary doctrine of the Church, faith in the risen saviour. What the thief of the cross did was change his attitude. Repentance in the NT means exactly that:

"Therefore, since Christ suffered in his body, arm yourselves also with the same attitude, because he who has suffered in his body is done with sin. " (IPeter 4:1)

Click to expand...

I disagree. I think the entirety of the NT indicates that salvation requires faith, confession (of christ), repentance, baptism, and an attempt to lead a righteous life. If you leave out any of those steps you will be lost. 1st and 2nd century Church history clearly shows this to have been what the early Christians (those guided by the apostles or early elders who had been laid on of hands from the apostles) believed.

phaedrus said:

Now if the thief on the cross was justified (forgiven of sin), under the law of Moses (which is impossible), then Christ died for nothing:

"For if the rightiousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing" (Gal. 2:21)

Click to expand...

The NT mentions that the blood of goats only "covered" the sins of those under the old law. When Christ died it removed those sins in retrospect. The old law was imperfect...that can also be found in the NT. The thief died under the old law...plain and simple. NT Christianity has no bearing on his salvation nor does whether or not he was baptized.

phaedrus said:

Nowhere in Scripture is there a requirement of baptism for salvation. For every text that might seem to imply that baptism is required, I can produce a dozen that say that it is by faith apart from works.

Click to expand...

And I can give you a scripture that says that faith IS a work. I can also give you a scripture that says that faith w/o works is dead. You have to take the entirety of the NT into account. BOTH are required for salvation. One w/o the other is useless. Nowhere in the NT is baptism defined as a work. The context of the "faith apart from works" is that we cannot do enough good deeds to save ourselves or earn salvation. That, however, does not exempt us from doing those deeds. Christ is simply saying that no matter what we are saved by grace because we don't deserve salvation. Salvation is, however, only offered to those that obey Christs commandments Baptism of which is one.

"Baptism was considered ESSENTIAL for salvation throughout the 1st and 2nd century "

By who's command? I know it wasn't Jesus' command, not for salvation at least.

"Our faith causes us to be baptized with gives us salvation"

Faith gives us salvation though baptism? Where is that in scripture. How about this: "For by grace you have been saved."

"The old law was imperfect..."

Just listen to what you just said...

"And I can give you a scripture that says that faith IS a work."

No... faith is given to us by God for He gives us the adequate amount of faith we need. Faith is not something we work for or earn, it is given to us by GRACE and His mercy. Faith is not a work, but is a work of God in which we have no control of, all we can do is rely on it.

evangelist said:

I think when we be ignornant of the Word of God we will lose rewards but the bible say`s we are still saved when we believe and trust in the Lord.

the bible say`s this:Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

So the question Polycaroi and others are those who believe and are born again , are they unrighteous because they didn`t get baptized???

God Bless

Click to expand...

It's God's business, not mine, to judge their righteousness or lack thereof.

But tell me, evangelist, if they willfully continue committing a pleasurable sin after being made aware of its sinfulness, are they being unrighteous? If God's word says numerous times that one should repent and be baptized, and they choose not to, are they not equally in disobedience of God's instructions?

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:

"Baptism was considered ESSENTIAL for salvation throughout the 1st and 2nd century "

By who's command? I know it wasn't Jesus' command, not for salvation at least.

"Our faith causes us to be baptized with gives us salvation"

Faith gives us salvation though baptism? Where is that in scripture. How about this: "For by grace you have been saved."

"The old law was imperfect..."

Just listen to what you just said...

"And I can give you a scripture that says that faith IS a work."

No... faith is given to us by God for He gives us the adequate amount of faith we need. Faith is not something we work for or earn, it is given to us by GRACE and His mercy. Faith is not a work, but is a work of God in which we have no control of, all we can do is rely on it.

Click to expand...

You can ignore it all you like, but I'm afraid this is an area where I probably am a lot more studied than you are. Throughout all of the early periods there is general agreement among Apostolic Fathers and Apologists that baptism is necessary to salvation and that the general practice was immersion (except in extreme emergencies where sprinkling or pouring was substituted). There were many false doctrines in the first three centuries of the church, but salvation apart from baptism was not one of them. This came later. During this early period baptismal regeneration, the other extreme, was erroneously taught. This gave rise to the error of infant baptism and eventually the erroneous concept of original sin. Since the elders of the early churches were laid on by the apostles we assume they had the holy spirit guiding them. This leads one to assume that if baptism was considered ESSENTIAL for the first 3 centuries of church history then it was what Christ and the apostles taught. An open minded read of the NT indicates this to be true. Baptism is an act symbolizing dying to sin and being resurrected w/o sin. Your sins are forgiven the instant you come out of the water.

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:

No... faith is given to us by God for He gives us the adequate amount of faith we need. Faith is not something we work for or earn, it is given to us by GRACE and His mercy. Faith is not a work, but is a work of God in which we have no control of, all we can do is rely on it.

Click to expand...

Arghhh...you guys kill me with this whole grace/faith argument. You don't understand grace and faith at all!!!

Let me give an illustration. A disobedient child refuses to eat his dinner. His father tells him that he must leave the table w/o dessert. The child cries because he wants desert. The father says "OK...eat just 2 bites of your chicken and 2 bites of your peas and you will get dessert." The child obeys and gets dessert. Did the child DESERVE dessert??? Of course not. It was the grace of the father that allowed the child to have dessert. The child did not "earn" it by eating 2 bites of chickent and 2 bites of peas. If the child had NOT done as his father had said, he would not have gotten dessert either.

Salvation is the same way. We cannot EARN our salvation. We receive it by grace from God. But God has given us some simple steps we must perform to receive that grace, baptism of which is one. Our works do not save us (earn our salvation), but we have to perform works to be saved (because they are commanded). Understand????

Apathe said:

You can ignore it all you like, but I'm afraid this is an area where I probably am a lot more studied than you are. Throughout all of the early periods there is general agreement among Apostolic Fathers and Apologists that baptism is necessary to salvation and that the general practice was immersion (except in extreme emergencies where sprinkling or pouring was substituted). There were many false doctrines in the first three centuries of the church, but salvation apart from baptism was not one of them. This came later. During this early period baptismal regeneration, the other extreme, was erroneously taught. This gave rise to the error of infant baptism and eventually the erroneous concept of original sin. Since the elders of the early churches were laid on by the apostles we assume they had the holy spirit guiding them. This leads one to assume that if baptism was considered ESSENTIAL for the first 3 centuries of church history then it was what Christ and the apostles taught. An open minded read of the NT indicates this to be true. Baptism is an act symbolizing dying to sin and being resurrected w/o sin. Your sins are forgiven the instant you come out of the water.

Click to expand...

I will put more faith into the bible more so than studies of the history which is outside of the bible.

"Baptism is an act symbolizing dying to sin and being resurrected w/o sin"

This I agree with, but just this.
And don't think of yourself to be someone more "studied" than anyone els., There are those here who choose to not say what they know or do not know.

And about use being stuck on the Grace and faith idea... there is a reason for it... An ACT of being baptised did not save me, it was me chosing to believe in the faith God gave me to beleive in Him.
Me being baptised merely showed God that I was willing to start doing His work, and making disciples, leading people to Christ, that is what baptism does.

You can be a christian who just goes on his marry ole way and does nothing. Or you can do the will of the lord. Either way you are saved, but when it comes time to visit heaven, someone will have a few more rewards to give back to God, and that will not start until you are baptised.

Apathe said:

Receipt of the Holy Spirit did not indicate these people were saved. In fact as soon as Peter realized what happened he ordered them to be baptized. This is simply an example where God/Christ was trying to get Peter to understand that the new law and salvation was not for the Jews alone but for everyone now.

Click to expand...

I suggest you take another look at the quote from Ephesians again, "who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance", that is precisely what it is.

Apathe said:

You last statement goes against all known early church history.

Click to expand...

I said that it was required, but not for salvation, this was an identification with Christ. Also, the NT is early church history and it trumps all traditions, statements, and doctrines. The central focus is faith in Christ.

Apathe said:

This passage CLEARLY equates baptism with salvation. Our faith causes us to be baptized with gives us salvation. If Noah had faith but didn't build the ark he would have been lost. His action THROUGH FAITH saved him.

Click to expand...

No, it clearly 'identifies' baptism with salvation, there is nothing in the context to insist that salvation is not obtained apart from baptism. Noah was not saved by the ark, he was saved because he found grace in the eyes of God. What followed (his 120 years of hard work) were a product of God's grace, don't lose sight of that, its important.

Apathe said:

The NT mentions that the blood of goats only "covered" the sins of those under the old law

Click to expand...

Oh come on, I know you understand this.

"But those sacrifices are an annual reminder of sins, because it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins." (Hebrews 10:5:4)

Apathe said:

I can also give you a scripture that says that faith w/o works is dead.

Click to expand...

Ok, the works that James is describing in his letter to people who where given 'birth through the word of truth", should not mistreat one another. Belivers do not behave themselves in this way. He was dealing with carnality the same way Paul was in I Corinthians. If you want to talk about this further count me in. Most of the rest I agree with, however, there is one thing we may need to look at.

Apathe said:

Salvation is, however, only offered to those that obey Christs commandments Baptism of which is one.

Click to expand...

I'm going to ask you for the book, chapter and verse on that. Jesus never commands that believers be baptised in order to be saved. You are right that he does say that disciples are to be baptised, but salvation is based on the baptism of Christ. Our water baptism is just a rite of identification, its required, just not for salvation.

Grace and peace

phaedrus said:

I'm going to ask you for the book, chapter and verse on that. Jesus never commands that believers be baptised in order to be saved. You are right that he does say that disciples are to be baptised, but salvation is based on the baptism of Christ. Our water baptism is just a rite of identification, its required, just not for salvation.

Click to expand...

Acts 2:38 for one equates repentance and baptism w/ forgiveness of sins. And yes, I've heard the bazillion Greek arguments about the word translated for and I don't have time to deal w/ those tonight. There are several verses dealing w/ baptism but I still hold that 1st-3rd Century history seal the argument on this. You can interpret the NT 2 ways, that baptism is required and that fits church history. You can rationalize away baptism but then you have 3 centuries that it's importance just disappears???? That's dubious. Again, history shows that they erred first to baptismal regeneration...the concept that baptism ALONE saves you. This heresy gives way to the idea of waiting until you are on your deathbed to be baptized because you could not get forgiveness of sins for sins committed afterward (this was dealth with in the Shepherd of Hermas ca. 140-150 AD). Justin Martyr (ca. 103-165 AD) writes in Apology where he is urging the emporer to investigate Christianity and learn the truth about Christians and he states that baptism is for remission of sins and unto regeneration. We see the basis for Original sin in Origen's work (ca. 185-254 AD). All of history show a progression from baptism for remission (which I believe the NT teaches) to baptismal regeneration to infant baptism to original sin. Your concept of "baptism isn't necessary for salvation" wasn't conceived for several centuries!!!! It wasn't taught in the NT and just immediately forgotten by the churches for 100's of years!!! It obviously is NOT taught by the NT or it would have been the norm during the first 3 centuries.

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:

I will put more faith into the bible more so than studies of the history which is outside of the bible.

"Baptism is an act symbolizing dying to sin and being resurrected w/o sin"

This I agree with, but just this.
And don't think of yourself to be someone more "studied" than anyone els., There are those here who choose to not say what they know or do not know.

And about use being stuck on the Grace and faith idea... there is a reason for it... An ACT of being baptised did not save me, it was me chosing to believe in the faith God gave me to beleive in Him.
Me being baptised merely showed God that I was willing to start doing His work, and making disciples, leading people to Christ, that is what baptism does.

You can be a christian who just goes on his marry ole way and does nothing. Or you can do the will of the lord. Either way you are saved, but when it comes time to visit heaven, someone will have a few more rewards to give back to God, and that will not start until you are baptised.

Click to expand...

Belief and faith are not the same thing. Faith is a belief that causes you to do something. It's active. The entirety of the new testament as well as the 1st 3 centuries of church history suggest that you must have faith, confess, repent, be baptized, and attempt to live faithfully. It's as simple as that. To simply ignore the 1st 3 centuries of church history that clue you in on what was taught in the NT is not wise.

The 1st 3 centuries were obsessed with baptism because they were stressing people to actually do the work of the Lord cause they needed to plant churches. The stressing is still needed today, but it isn't. Baptism is start needed to do the work of the Lord.

God wants workers, but He will take those who merly accept Him despite thier worthlessness.

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:

The 1st 3 centuries were obsessed with baptism because they were stressing people to actually do the work of the Lord cause they needed to plant churches. The stressing is still needed today, but it isn't. Baptism is start needed to do the work of the Lord.

God wants workers, but He will take those who merly accept Him despite thier worthlessness.

Click to expand...

Interesting theory, but doesn't quite fit the facts. We know that the "spreading" of the church was accelerated by the laying on of hands and passing of gifts of the holy spirit (since there was no written texts at this time). We can assume that those who were laid on upon lived to at least 100AD and were acting as elders of churches. The early texts show baptism to have been for remission of sins...not for just joining the church or an obsession as you theorize. In fact the obsession that eventually does appear is that baptism alone saves a person...a natural progression of what the true teaching was at that time which was that baptism is a part of salvation (along with faith, confession, repentance, attempt at a godly life). The faith alone theory just doesn't fit the historical facts.

"The faith alone theory just doesn't fit the historical facts."

Your right, it doesn't, it fits Gods facts.

I am gonna say the same thing I did 4 months ago. You and I aren't gonna agree no matter what. We've stated our opinions and reasons, the only thing that will change us is God, so I am out of this conversation until someone asks me directly.

Goodnight everyone.

A Brethren IN CHRIST said:

Are we not all one body eph 4:4, 1 cor 12:12-13

Click to expand...

I'm not really sure what you meant by the last post that you addressed to me, but I think that you were trying to imply that since all Christians are part of the body of Christ that something said to one person is said to all. I just don't believe that's true.

1 Corinthians 12:27-31 ASV

Now ye are the body of Christ, and severally members thereof. (28) And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, divers kinds of tongues. (29) Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? (30) have all gifts of healings? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? (31) But desire earnestly the greater gifts. And moreover a most excellent way show I unto you.

Read through the questions that Paul is asking. Are all prophets? No. Are all Apostles? No. The fact that one Christian is something that another is not should be enough evidence to show that while all Christians are a member of Christ's body, not all Christians have the same service or the same purpose. Would it then be possible for Christ to command the Apostles to do something that is not commanded to other Christians? Yes.

Hello again! Good to see you're back. How was basic training? Do you have to go through AIT? Where are posted?

xtxArchxAngelxtx said:

hello aggie..... long time no talk.

It is necessary, but not for salvation, please don't be manipulative to the other viewers

Click to expand...

This is confusing...how it can it be necessary - meaning something that must be done, but at the same time, not be necessary?

Oh, and how was I being manipulative???

evangelist said:

Hello Aggie 03

I don`t know how you were taught about the washing or covering of the blood of Jesus , and I don`t know if you had a teaching on what baptism symbolize as to be covered by water also.
it seems like you but the water before the blood of Jesus , but I might be wrong on how you look at baptism.

Click to expand...

I'm not really sure what you're asking here. I believe that the Scriptures plainly teach that baptism is something God has said is necessary for the remission of sins, the washing away of sins.

You ask for a scripture about the baptism of the heart which I can`t show you these written words in the bible just like I can`t show you the word bible , or trinity or a scripture don`t take drugs or smoke cigarettes, but in context of the scripture we can get the right answers and understanding, and the will of God for our lives.

Click to expand...

The word 'Godhead' is mentioned in the Scriptures, and there are also passages that deal directly with some of the other things that you've mentioned. If you're interested in them let me know and I'll PM some of them to you . So, there should be a passage that talks about a 'baptism of the heart.'

Now I gave you some scripture about the baptism of the heart but the Holy Spirit has to reveal it to you one day while you are seeking the truth, and spiritual growth.

Click to expand...

This is where I'm really confused. Earlier you said you couldn't give me any Scriptures, and here you've said that you've given me some. Did I miss them in a previous post? If I did, would you mind reposting them, that would really help me out in answer the things that you've said.

I know you said you are glad to discuss with me this issue, but i think we need to take our questions one at a time step by step and let us not try to dodge out the questions with another question hoping to to answer the first question at state.

Click to expand...

I assure you, friend, that I'm not trying to dodge anything

So let me help you to answer my first question to you which is so important .

I have a question if a person does everything else except get baptized do you think they will go to hell because they didn`t get water baptized, but they are saved????

Yes______ or no_______.

Click to expand...

Again, in socratic manner, I am going to ask you a question in reply to yours. What if a person does everything but repent? The answer to the question you asked (if I'm guessing correctly) will be the same answer you give for mine.

I was amazed you didn`t at least answer this question.

Click to expand...

I did answer it, with a question

Ro:5:19: For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

My last question according to this scripture and more like this, is a water unbaptized person not righteous, and qualified for hell forever, because Jesus also got water baptized and this was righteous, so this should make others righteous and do you agree righteuos people come into heaven???

Click to expand...

According to how you're trying to apply this verse everyone is going to heaven. Are you a universalist? There are things that men must do in order to be saved, I thought that we both agreed on at least that much, or was I mistaken?

Also, something to consider: Jesus lived His life under the Old Covenant, whereas we are under the New. Jesus was baptized with the baptism of John - something that we are not commanded to do. John's baptism was a baptism of repentance...ours is to be for the remission of sins. There is a stark contrast between the two .

Sorry that it took me a little while to write back, I'll try to be more prompt in my replies, but it's difficult over the holidays to be on here everyday. Hope to hear back from you soon