Is baptism necessary to be saved?

[sbbqb7n16]

How does Rom. 6:3-5 suit the thief?

• How would he have known how to benefit from Christ's resurection (vs.5) if the resurrection had not yet occured?
• The thief could not have been "buried with him IN BAPTISM" (vs.4).
• Did the thief "know" that "Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him" (vs.9)?
• Could the thief have "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine" (vs.17)?

You're grasping at straws here.

I was saying about the "in likeness of death" see:

Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

The likeness of resurrection is a future event... likeness of death was a past event. Since the criminal on the cross died by crucifixion exactly like Christ did... that's why I said it. And yes I know that that's not what the verse was intended to imply... we don't all have to be literally crucified. Some people in here need to lighten up a littel.

To baptized "IN THE NAME OF" means "BY THE AUTHORITY OF".
Now watch how "REMISSION OF SINS" is through "HIS NAME":

• “Through HIS NAME whosoever BELIEVETH in him shall receive REMISSION OF SINS.” (Ac. 10:43)
• "And that REPENTANCE and REMISSION OF SINS should be preached IN HIS NAME” (Lk. 24:47)
• "REPENT, and be BAPTIZED every one of you IN THE NAME OF Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS.” (Ac. 2:38).
• "And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be BAPTIZED, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on THE NAME OF the Lord." (Ac 22:16).

Okay that's great. Now why do you still say that the baptism in water removes the sin... if you just showed me where the Bible says that the name of Jesus Christ is that which cleanses us? Notice how each one of the verses YOU gave says that it is through the name of Jesus that remission of sins is recieved. Not through water. And again you must have skipped over what I wrote about Acts 22:16... baptism and washing are under two separate commands. Washing is coupled with "calling on the name of the Lord" not "be baptized." But apparently you just skipped over that...

Are you saying that you are 100% certain that there is no possibility whatsoever that the thief could not have repented and sinned even one time after? Can you state so boldy that you know without even a tiny bit of doubt that the thief was not baptized by John? Quote the passage? Your basing a position on nothing more than an assumption.

With all kindness, I think you need to give a different example than the thief.

Do you understand crucifixion at all? It was reserved for the worst of the worst... not just plain ol Joe Schmo. Repeat sex offenders... the Osama Bin Ladens of that day... those kind. What you mean for me to believe is that this thief repented of all his sins... then accidentally went out and just happened to slip up and try and rob the Roman tax collector booth one day. OOPS! Shouldn't have done that... The crime he was crucified for was a VERY serious one... not he stole a candy bar. If it was true repentance would he have gone and did that?

And with that same kindness you need to consider him. It's like you're just saying "well that's just one example it doesn't amount to anything."

Let me pose you a couple more questions then... and you will some of my other examples in these questions:

1) Matt*3:14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"

Here John says that he needs to be baptized by Jesus. This is the guy doing all the baptism but he says that that isn't enough. He needs a baptism by Jesus. Now if his own baptism removed sins... why was there any need for anything further?

2) Acts*19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts*19:4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts*19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here again we find that John's baptism wasn't enough. Verse 4 even points out that it is meaningless if it doesn't point you to Christ. So obviously the water Baptism alone does absolutely nothing for you and the real reason you are saved is your belief in Jesus Christ.

Baptism and Repentance are joined together. They are inseparable. Read the verse slowly, "The baptism of repentance for the remission of sins". Don't forget the word, "of".

Okay then it is the "baptism of repentance" that is important. What then is made of the "baptism of water"? Do you also see how Acts 19:4 shows that the "baptism of repentance" is only good to lead you to Jesus Christ?

I fail to see how this nullifies God's command to be baptized.

I fail to see where I ever said it did... I wrote that about your question of "why did this theif on the cross know more about Jesus' kingdom than His disciples did?" I never wrote that about baptism.

Many people are "in positions that cannot allow for" preaching to produce faith (Rom. 10:17). Are you going to lossen God's requirement for faith because a preacher can't get to them and proclaim the good news to them in order for them to have faith? About the prison example, what if they won't even let me in to preach to the inmate? "What should be done for this person?" Should I conclude that faith must not be necessary? That's how your logic wants me to dismiss baptism.

No it's not... you misunderstand my intentions. My intentions fall more along the lines of what Christ Himself said:

Matt*9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
50 Matt*12:7 "But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Jesus Christ knows who can and can't go and be baptized. And I firmly believe that He will have compassion on those who believe in Him but are unable to recieve a "water immersion" baptism. And will not reject such people.

You also forget the WHOLE LIFE of the people in confinement that they had to hear the message. And you assume that it is all up to you to save them. The odds are in America that they have heard the message apart from you... and besides that... all creation gives testimony to the glory of God. Just because you can't go within a prison... does not nullify God's ability to judge them properly as He sees fit. But He also knows who can and can't be baptized and if they believe... I don't see Him condemning someone for not being baptized when it wasn't within their ability... much like the thief on the cross. I also don't see Him saving someone who was baptized but did not believe in Him. Therefore to me I see the crucial factor to be a belief in Jesus Christ... not a condition of baptism.

Yes they are "extremes", and you are basing truth upon an "extreme". Why apply truth to the "extreme", rather than changing truth to fit the "extreme"? The examples I gave above are also "possible situations". Should I say they "allow for a true" faith "to be forgone". May I remind you that I believe that faith is necessary, for "without faith it is impossible to please him" (Heb. 11:6). I cannot dismiss faith to fit an "extreme...situation". Nor can I say that God's demand for baptism should be dismissed. That is what you are doing.

Truth applies regardless of norm or extreme. What I'm actually trying to show you is that the baptism alone is worthless without Christ. Now if it is worthless in and of itself for salvation, then salvation must then only come from a belief in Jesus Christ. And that belief is what is truly important... not whether you were able to be baptised or not. You seem to make it sound like even if someone's health is not good enough to permit a breathing under water (ie. on a death bed) and you make it seem as though we should baptize this person anyways... even if they cease breathing and die from it... because it is that important to you. If someone believes in Christ and literally cannot go and be baptized... would you condemn them?

Now about those who are perfectly able to be baptised:

John*13:17 "If you know these things, you are blessed if you do them.

I believe that there is a great blessing in being baptised. But I don't believe that it will save you. So if you aren't going to be baptized because you just don't feel like it... you're totally missing out.

 

[heb12-2]

I was saying about the "in likeness of death" see:

Romans 6:5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

The likeness of resurrection is a future event... likeness of death was a past event. Since the criminal on the cross died by crucifixion exactly like Christ did... that's why I said it. And yes I know that that's not what the verse was intended to imply... we don't all have to be literally crucified. Some people in here need to lighten up a littel.

OK, you are admitting that the resurrection was a future event to the thief. That proves the point that he could not have understood the purpose of baptism as explained by Rom. 6:3-5. It is impossible for the thief to have obeyed this passage. That should end the discussion concerning the thief.

I don't know if I understand why you're saying that I need to lighten up. Did I offend you in some way? Was I unkind to you? I do believe that salvation is the most important subject we could be discussing, correct? If I am serious about what God says, don't mistaken that to be unkind in any way. I mean no harm. I care for the souls who may read this, and who may be led astray in obeying a different salvation than God has given. I give you the benefit of the doubt that you are responding for the same concern. "Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?" (Ga 4:16).

Okay that's great. Now why do you still say that the baptism in water removes the sin... if you just showed me where the Bible says that the name of Jesus Christ is that which cleanses us? Notice how each one of the verses YOU gave says that it is through the name of Jesus that remission of sins is recieved. Not through water. And again you must have skipped over what I wrote about Acts 22:16... baptism and washing are under two separate commands. Washing is coupled with "calling on the name of the Lord" not "be baptized." But apparently you just skipped over that...

I'm not saying that baptism in water removes sin. God said that.
You are right that every one of the verses says that it is through the name of Jesus that remission of sins is received. But I'm afraid it is you that is skipping over things. Did you not see the things that are done in his name for the remission of sins?
Did you miss that it is BAPTISM "in the name of Jesus Christ" that is "for the remission of sins" (Ac. 2:38)?
Did you miss that Ac. 22:16 says that being baptized is how one calls "on the name of the Lord"? And no, Baptism and washing are not two separate acts as you suggest. They are connected. And notice the order of the passage. Arise....Baptised....wash way sins. Your order is in reverse. You would say: Arise...wash away sins....then be baptized.

Do you understand crucifixion at all? It was reserved for the worst of the worst... not just plain ol Joe Schmo. Repeat sex offenders... the Osama Bin Ladens of that day... those kind. What you mean for me to believe is that this thief repented of all his sins... then accidentally went out and just happened to slip up and try and rob the Roman tax collector booth one day. OOPS! Shouldn't have done that... The crime he was crucified for was a VERY serious one... not he stole a candy bar. If it was true repentance would he have gone and did that?

Then why was Jesus crucified?

Answer the following question. A simple yes or no will do. "Are you 100% certain and without any doubt that the theif was not baptized?"

And with that same kindness you need to consider him. It's like you're just saying "well that's just one example it doesn't amount to anything."

You misunderstand. I don't believe the thief is "just one example". The thief is not an example AT ALL. The baptism of the great commission given in Mt. 28:29-20 and Mk. 16:15-16 was not given yet. The thief knew nothing of this baptism. That's why the thief has no relevance whatsoever to the issue of the importance of baptism.

Let me pose you a couple more questions then... and you will some of my other examples in these questions:

1) Matt*3:14 But John tried to prevent Him, saying, "I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to me?"

Here John says that he needs to be baptized by Jesus. This is the guy doing all the baptism but he says that that isn't enough. He needs a baptism by Jesus. Now if his own baptism removed sins... why was there any need for anything further?

Because his baptism was a preparation for the way of Christ. Ac. 19:1-5 answers your question quite perfectly. Why did they need to be baptized again? Because they only had John's baptism, but that wasn't the one they needed.

2) Acts*19:3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
Acts*19:4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts*19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Here again we find that John's baptism wasn't enough. Verse 4 even points out that it is meaningless if it doesn't point you to Christ. So obviously the water Baptism alone does absolutely nothing for you and the real reason you are saved is your belief in Jesus Christ.

John's baptism wasn't enough because they need the baptism instituted by Christ. Listen to your statement very carefully, "Verse 4 even points out that it is meaningless if it doesn't point you to Christ." I agree with your statement wholeheartedly. Does the baptism that you subscribe to "point you to Christ", or were you baptized because you already came to Christ? It was not that water baptism did "absolutely nothing" for the Ephesians. It was the BAPTISM OF JOHN that did "asolutely nothing" for them. Do you really believe that the baptism in vese 5 did "absolutely nothing" for them. If the baptism in verse 5 did "absolutely nothing" for them, then why did they need it? Because they had been baptized with tthe wrong baptism. Similarly, if you have been baptized by the wrong baptism, then you need to be baptized correctly according to scripture.

Okay then it is the "baptism of repentance" that is important. What then is made of the "baptism of water"? Do you also see how Acts 19:4 shows that the "baptism of repentance" is only good to lead you to Jesus Christ?

No, you miss the point of the passage. The "baptism of repentance" that you are referring to is no longer important. That was John's baptism. And no, Ac. 19:4 only shows that John's baptism is not what they needed. It does nothing to show that the great commission baptism is not needed. Verse 5 shows that it IS needed.

Let me point something else out to you from verse 4 and 5. Do you recognize that to "believe on Him" (vs.4) means to be baptized (vs.5)? Is it not those who do what he says that truly believes on Him? If you claim to believe on him but don't do what he says, then do you really believe Him (Lk. 6:46; Mt. 7:21)?

I fail to see where I ever said it did... I wrote that about your question of "why did this theif on the cross know more about Jesus' kingdom than His disciples did?" I never wrote that about baptism.

OK, I'm sorry I misunderstood you.

No it's not... you misunderstand my intentions. My intentions fall more along the lines of what Christ Himself said:

Matt*9:13 "But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
50 Matt*12:7 "But if you had known what this means, 'I DESIRE COMPASSION, AND NOT A SACRIFICE,' you would not have condemned the innocent.

Jesus Christ knows who can and can't go and be baptized. And I firmly believe that He will have compassion on those who believe in Him but are unable to recieve a "water immersion" baptism. And will not reject such people.

Do you believe he will have compassion and "will not reject such people" that do not BELIEVE on him? How come you can't let faith go, but you can make me out to be unmerciful and without compassion if I'm not willing to let BAPTISM go? How come you are not unmerciful and without compassion when you demand that a person must still have faith even when he can't get to a preacher in order to have faith?

Don't misunderstand me. I believe he MUST have faith, just as you do. And neither I nor you are willing to say that it is NOT necessary to believe, even if we both can think of some sad and "extreme situation" where that is no longer possible.

You see, every emotional argument that you make against BAPTISM, I can make right back at you on FAITH. But I don't accuse you of being "legalistic" when you demand the "requirement" of FAITH.

You also forget the WHOLE LIFE of the people in confinement that they had to hear the message. And you assume that it is all up to you to save them. The odds are in America that they have heard the message apart from you... and besides that... all creation gives testimony to the glory of God. Just because you can't go within a prison... does not nullify God's ability to judge them properly as He sees fit. But He also knows who can and can't be baptized and if they believe... I don't see Him condemning someone for not being baptized when it wasn't within their ability... much like the thief on the cross. I also don't see Him saving someone who was baptized but did not believe in Him. Therefore to me I see the crucial factor to be a belief in Jesus Christ... not a condition of baptism.

I don't assume that it is all up to me to save them. Where did you get that idea? Again, you are making an emotional argument based upon an "extreme situation", rather than applying the truth to it.

You said, "I don't see Him condemning someone for not being baptized when it wasn't within their ability." What if I said, "I don't see Him condemning someone for not having faith when it wasn't within their ability."

How come you are not unmerciful when you say, "I also don't see Him saving someone who was baptized but did not believe in Him." But you consider me unmerciful if I say, "I also don't see Him saving someone who believed but was not baptized"? You are only saying that if someone doesn't meet God's requirements then he's not going to save them. But if I say it, I'm unmerciful. Why? I simply believe both the requirements of faith AND baptism. You only believe one. The arguments based upon emotion and situational ethics do not work. Why not just present scripture that proves what you are teaching, rather than using situations?

Truth applies regardless of norm or extreme. What I'm actually trying to show you is that the baptism alone is worthless without Christ. Now if it is worthless in and of itself for salvation, then salvation must then only come from a belief in Jesus Christ. And that belief is what is truly important... not whether you were able to be baptised or not. You seem to make it sound like even if someone's health is not good enough to permit a breathing under water (ie. on a death bed) and you make it seem as though we should baptize this person anyways... even if they cease breathing and die from it... because it is that important to you. If someone believes in Christ and literally cannot go and be baptized... would you condemn them?

If "Truth applies regardless of norm or extreme" then why bring up the "norm" or the "extreme". Why not just stick with scripture?
Yes, you are correct that "baptism alone" is "worthless", but do you not recognize that the Bible also says that "faith alone" is "dead" (Jam. 2:17)?

Let's test your next argument. You say that if baptism "is worthless in and of itself for salvation, then salvation must then only come from a belief in Jesus Christ." Then why won't the same logic then proclaim that "if faith is worthless in and of itself for salvation, then salvation must then only come from a baptism in Jesus Christ"? You see if it works one way, why not the other? This proves this argument to be false.

No one is advocating "baptism alone". The Bible simply requires both faith AND baptism. It is you that is advocating "faith alone", and the Bible says that it is "dead" (Jam. 1:17)

I believe that there is a great blessing in being baptised. But I don't believe that it will save you.

The Bible: "Baptism doth also now saves us" (1 Pet. 3:21)
You: "Baptism doth also not saves us"

You against the Bible.

 

[heb12-2]

[size=+2]Which Do You Believe?[/size]

(A) He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized or,
(B) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. (See Mark 16:16)

(A) Baptism is not for remission of sins or,
(B) Baptism is for remission of sins. (See Acts 2:38)

(A) Baptism doth also not save us or,
(B) Baptism doth also now save us. (See 1 Pet. 3:21)

(A) One does not wash away his sins in baptism or,
(B) One washes away his sins in baptism. (See Acts 22:16)

(A) God does not operate in baptism in removing sins or,
(B) God operates in baptism in removing sins. (See Col. 2:11-12)

(A) One has the new life before baptism or,
(B) One is raised from baptism to the new life. (See Rom. 6:3-4)

(A) One puts on Christ before baptized or,
(B) One puts on Christ when he is baptized into Christ. (See Gal. 3:26-27)

Those who contend against baptism, contend against scripture!

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Pr 30:6).

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

with out the work of the Holy Spirit None of us are saved

John 16:7-11

convinced of sin John 16:9
"because the Believe not in me"

conviniced of Righteousness John 16:10
"Because I go to my Father, and you see Me no more"

Covinced of Judgement John 16:11
"because the prince of this world is judged

why do we need Convinced

Natural blind 1cor 2:14
Satanic blind 2 cor 4:3-4
Judicial blind 2cor 3:14-16
spiritually useless minds eph 4:17
The power of the gospel of salvation Romans 1:16

Since the Holy Spirit does this we belief and the Holy Spirit put us in to The BODY 1cor 12:13 by baptism that no one saw
2cor 5:7, Heb 11:1

Example Luke 23:39-43 thief at the cross

why man can not save man we are sinners

 

[Arnold_Philips]

The marriage analogy that was given is not acurate. You are implying that the marriage takes place before the wedding. That's not true. Just because you love someone, that doesn't make you married. Even if two people make the decision to get married, they still are not married yet. If your logic is true, then two people who are engaged could have sex because they are already married? That's absurd.

I knew this would arise; I should have clarified what I meant. We must separate religious marriage from government marriage. Just because a couple doesn't hold a ceremony doesn't mean that they aren't legally married. In the same way, just because one isn't baptised doesn't mean he hasn't gained salvation. The deal is officially sealed at the first step, the marriage license, or, in the case of salvation, God's grace.

Likewise, just because you believe in Jesus, that in and of itself doesn't make you a Christian. "The devils also believe, and tremble." (James 2:19).

Semantics. We don't have to play games.

A marriage license gives you the right to get married. But you are not married yet. Belief gives you the "power to become" a son of God. But you are not a son of God yet, if the only thing you've done is believe. James 2:24 says that we are not saved by "faith only".

I'm fairly certain (I am no lawyer, though) that a marriage license offically makes you married in the eyes of the government and entitles you to all the amenities entailed. And secondly, I have never heard of the idea that we must first have "the power to become a son of God before we actually become one." Also, I interpret the verse in James to mean that we must do good works as evidence of our faith. Likewise, we must breathe and eat as evidence that we are alive.

I believe all the passages demanding faith. I also, believe all the passages demanding baptism. Why can't you believe both?

Faith is from the Holy Spirit. Baptism is not.

 

[sbbqb7n16]

Heb obviously you aren't getting it... I just had 21 questions all about which one was it water or blood by which you were bought... is it by water or blood that you are justified... and the site failed and my post was lost.... 21 Scripture references from Exodus to Rev that I chose to show you and anyone that would read this post that you are bought by blood and not by water!!! Have you read Hebrews? Don't you know that the covenant is made by blood? The Isrealites didn't put water on their doorposts to save them did they? Or course not!!

You are bought by the Blood of Jesus Christ and not with water. And it is by His Blood that you are saved not by baptism. If baptism alone could save you... people who get themselves dunked at a pool party would be free!! That's foolish!

And may I pose this question? Why did Jesus say "it is finished" on the cross and not after His baptism?

If baptism could save you, then Jesus Christ died in vain...

 

[sbbqb7n16]

[size=+2]Which Do You Believe?[/size]

(A) He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized or,
(B) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. (See Mark 16:16)

1 Pet*1:17 If you address as Father the One who impartially judges according to each one's work, conduct yourselves in fear during the time of your stay on earth;
1 Pet*1:18 knowing that you were not redeemed with perishable things like silver or gold from your futile way of life inherited from your forefathers,
1 Pet*1:19 but with precious blood, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless, the blood of Christ.

(A) Baptism is not for remission of sins or,
(B) Baptism is for remission of sins. (See Acts 2:38)

Matt*26:28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

1 John 1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Heb*9:18 Therefore even the first covenant was not inaugurated without blood.
Heb*9:19 For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people,
Heb*9:20 saying, "THIS IS THE BLOOD OF THE COVENANT WHICH GOD COMMANDED YOU."
Heb*9:21 And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood.
Heb*9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

(A) Baptism doth also not save us or,
(B) Baptism doth also now save us. (See 1 Pet. 3:21)

Eph*1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace
Ex*12:13 'The blood shall be a sign for you on the houses where you live; and when I see the blood I will pass over you, and no plague will befall you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

(A) One does not wash away his sins in baptism or,
(B) One washes away his sins in baptism. (See Acts 22:16)

Heb*9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

(A) God does not operate in baptism in removing sins or,
(B) God operates in baptism in removing sins. (See Col. 2:11-12)

Eph*1:7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace

Eph*2:13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

Col*1:20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

(A) One has the new life before baptism or,
(B) One is raised from baptism to the new life. (See Rom. 6:3-4)

Rom 6:3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?

1 Cor*1:17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.

Gal*2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

(A) One puts on Christ before baptized or,
(B) One puts on Christ when he is baptized into Christ. (See Gal. 3:26-27)

1 John*1:7 but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

Those who contend against baptism, contend against scripture!

"Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar." (Pr 30:6).

Prov*18:13 He who gives an answer before he hears,
It is folly and shame to him.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Faith is from the Holy Spirit. Baptism is not.

what does this verse say

1cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.........

think you are wrong by.......... scripture says different

 

[Arnold_Philips]

what does this verse say

1cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body.........

think you are wrong by.......... scripture says different

I'm pretty sure that's referring to baptism by the Holy Spirit, just like Jesus said he would do.

 

[dldjr86]

I just want to say that NOWHERE did I say water saved you. It is the act and obedience to God in going through the requirments to recieve salvation. I think heb12-2 would back me up on this.

 

[heb12-2]

with out the work of the Holy Spirit None of us are saved

No one is denying the work of the Holy Spirit. The question is HOW does the HOLY SPIRIT work in conversion?

You quoted verses that show that the Holy Spirit would "convince". Again, the question is HOW does he convince? What TOOL does he use to "convince"? Answer: the WORD. Eph. 6:17, "the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God".

Are you not "convinced" of this? Look at Titus 1:9, "Holding fast the faithful WORD as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to CONVINCE the gainsayers."

That verse shows HOW the Spirit CONVINCES through the WORD

why do we need Convinced

The question is not WHY we need "convinced". The question again is HOW are we convinced? You answered that question yourself when you quoted Rom. 1:16, The POWER is in the GOSPEL. The WORD is the tool that the Spirit uses to "convince" the blind.

"For the WORD of God is QUICK, and POWERFUL, and SHARPER than any TWOEDGED SWORD, PIERCING even to the DIVIDING ASUNDER of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a DISCERNER of the thoughts and intents of the heart." (Heb 4:12).

Now That's Powerful!

Since the Holy Spirit does this we belief and the Holy Spirit put us in to The BODY 1cor 12:13 by baptism that no one saw

I missed the part in that verse that says, "by baptism that no one saw". That's your own addition to the word.

Again, HOW does the Holy Spirit do what is said in 1 Cor. 12:13?
Remember Eph. 6:17? The WORD is the Sword of the Spirit.

Compare the following passages:
"Except a man be born again" (Jn. 3:3) Born again how? by "water and of the Spirit" (Jn. 3:5). Now compare the Spirit's work in being "born again" with 1 Pet. 1:22, "being born again....by the WORD of God".

Did you catch that? One verse says "born again" by "the Spirit" and the other says "born again...by the WORD". How do you reconcile that? Well...again, the Spirit uses the WORD to "convince" us to be "born again". Simple.

Now bring that back to 1 Cor. 12:13. It's just the same. The Spirit uses the WORD to "convince" us to be BAPTIZED. That's all 1 Cor. 12:13 is saying.

Not "convinced" yet? Watch this!

In Ac. 2:37, "When they HEARD this, they were PRICKED in their heart".
HEARD what? What pricked them? The WORD that Peter preached to them, right? So the WORD pricked their heart like Heb. 4:12 says it can. Then they said, "What shall we do?" Peter said, "Repent and be BAPTIZED for the remission of sins" (Ac. 2:38).

Now stay with me on this point. Watch what it says next! "Then they that gladly received his WORD were BAPTIZED and the same day there were ADDED unto them about three thousand souls" (Ac 2:41). Notice that souls were ADDED by being BAPTIZED, then pay attention to verse 47, "And the Lord ADDED to the CHURCH daily such as should be saved". The CHURCH is Christ's BODY (Col. 1:18).

Now isn't that powerful?!!! What did we learn? The Spirit "pricked" their heart through the WORD preached to them, and "convinced" them to be BAPTIZED "for the remission of their sins", and when they were BAPTIZED, The Lord ADDED them to the CHURCH which is His BODY.

That's exactly what 1 Cor. 12:13 teaches. Now read it very carefully. See how it harmonizes with the scriptures above?

2cor 5:7, Heb 11:1

Yes, we walk by FAITH and not by sight. How does FAITH come?
"FAITH cometh by HEARING and HEARING by the WORD of God" (Rom. 10:17). And yes FAITH is the substance of things HOPED for. How is that faithful HOPE produced? You guessed it: Through the WORD (Col. 1:5) The Spirit's sword is powerful, isn't it?

Example Luke 23:39-43 thief at the cross

No, the thief is not an example for us. He lived under a different covenant.

why man can not save man we are sinners

It is true that man cannot save man in and of himself (Jer. 10:23), HOWEVER, God does use man to preach the WORD to save sinners through it's Power.

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not HEARD? and how shall they HEAR without A PREACHER?" (Ro 10:14).

 

[heb12-2]

I knew this would arise; I should have clarified what I meant. We must separate religious marriage from government marriage. Just because a couple doesn't hold a ceremony doesn't mean that they aren't legally married. In the same way, just because one isn't baptised doesn't mean he hasn't gained salvation. The deal is officially sealed at the first step, the marriage license, or, in the case of salvation, God's grace.

What scripture deduces baptism to a mere "ceremony". I don't believe baptism is a "ceremony". Do you? It is the false concept of man that makes baptism into a cermony, rather than obedience. Quote the passage that teaches that "the deal is officially sealed at the first step...God's grace". What passage says grace is the "first step"? Test what you've been taught now. Where does the scripture teach that? Next, where does it teach that the "first step" is the last one? By the way, if the deal is "officially sealed" at grace, then that would be even before faith, wouldn't it? Also, if you believe that it is grace + faith, then that still is not "faith ONLY" is it?

This is where you keep misunderstanding. I believe Grace saves. I believe Faith saves. I believe the blood saves. I believe they all save. I just don't believe that Grace ONLY, or faith ONLY saves (emphasis on the "ONLY"). They all have a part in saving us, including Baptism (1 Pet. 3:21).

Semantics. We don't have to play games.

Who's playing games? I don't understand your remark here.

I'm fairly certain (I am no lawyer, though) that a marriage license offically makes you married in the eyes of the government and entitles you to all the amenities entailed. And secondly, I have never heard of the idea that we must first have "the power to become a son of God before we actually become one." Also, I interpret the verse in James to mean that we must do good works as evidence of our faith. Likewise, we must breathe and eat as evidence that we are alive.

I'm afraid you are mistaken here. When two people go get a marriage license, they have so many days to use it and get married before the license expires. Again, a license or an engagement doesn't make a marriage.

Let me quote that scripture again. "But as many as received him, to them gave he powerb to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:" (Jn 1:12). Now that's the Holy Spirit's words, not mine. Explain "power to become" if "the deal is officially sealed" already.

You are mistaken about breathing and eating "as evidence" that we are alive. We breathe and eat "IN ORDER TO" live, don't we?

Faith is from the Holy Spirit. Baptism is not.

The Holy Spirit produces Faith through the WORD (Rom. 10:17).
The Holy Spirit instructs throught the WORD that one should be baptized. How can you say that Baptism is not from the Spirit? (See my previous response to "A Brethren in Christ")

 

[heb12-2]

Heb obviously you aren't getting it... I just had 21 questions all about which one was it water or blood by which you were bought... is it by water or blood that you are justified... and the site failed and my post was lost.... 21 Scripture references from Exodus to Rev that I chose to show you and anyone that would read this post that you are bought by blood and not by water!!! Have you read Hebrews? Don't you know that the covenant is made by blood? The Isrealites didn't put water on their doorposts to save them did they? Or course not!!

No one is denying the Blood. The question is HOW does one contact the Blood? Your argumentation goes like this: Since the Blood saves, baptism don't. Then why won't it work this way?: Since the Blood saves, faith don't.

You see, your logic is coming back on you. You don't rule out Baptism by quoting passages that says the blood saves. If you do, then you also rule out faith by the same argumentation.

You are bought by the Blood of Jesus Christ and not with water. And it is by His Blood that you are saved not by baptism. If baptism alone could save you... people who get themselves dunked at a pool party would be free!! That's foolish!

Again, no one is denying the blood. And no one is saying that baptism ALONE could save. It is you that is saying that faith ALONE can. You are correct that baptism alone cannot save. I AGREE with you. The only one that is arguing for something ALONE is you.

And may I pose this question? Why did Jesus say "it is finished" on the cross and not after His baptism?

Jesus was baptized for a different reason than we should. He was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness" (Mt. 3:15). We should be baptized "for the remissin of sins" (Ac. 2:38). Jesus had no sin to remit.

If baptism could save you, then Jesus Christ died in vain...

Explain how.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

I just want to say that NOWHERE did I say water saved you. It is the act and obedience to God in going through the requirments to recieve salvation. I think heb12-2 would back me up on this.

In John 7:37-40 that the Holy spirit is like rivers of living water


However if we do any part of salavation that is called works

according to Romans 4:5, eph 2:8-9, titus 3:5

that is impossible and for those who think they can have a part of salavtion in Matt 7:21-23, Ps 53:2-4 defines work inquity

 

[heb12-2]

Hello sbbqb7n16,

How are you again? I appreciate you taking the time to reason with me.

I asked the question:[size=+2]Which Do You Believe?[/size]
I then gave two choices. One choice simply quoted a scripture. The other choice gave a twisted version of that scripture. I simply wanted to know which you believe, either (A) or (B). You did not answer a single one of my questions. You avoided me. Please try again and tell me which one you believe. Just tell me, either (A) or (B). I wouldn't have a problem telling you which one I believe. I'll take my stand with the scripture.

You replied quoting scriptures concerning the blood. I acknowledge everyone one of the verses you quoted, and believe them ALL.

Just what exactly are you trying to prove by all the verses about the blood? NO ONE IS DENYING THE BLOOD. The issue to discuss is:

HOW do we CONTACT the BLOOD?

Rom. 6:3 says we are BAPTIZED "into his death".
Rom. 6:4 says we are "Buried with him by BAPTISM into death".
Rom. 6:5 talks about BAPTISM as being "planted together in the likeness of his death".
Rom. 6:6 talks of BAPTISM as being "crucified with him".

If you don't see the BLOOD in Jesus' death, please tell me where it is?

Compare Rom. 6:6 above with Gal. 2:20 that you quoted.

I'm so glad that you quoted Mt. 26:28. Let's compare it with Ac. 2:38 shall we? Look at them side by side:

Mt. 26:28, "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
Ac. 2:38, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins" (Ac 2:38).

Did you notice that!
BLOOD "for the remission of sins" and
BAPTISM "for the remission of sins".

WE CONTACT THE BLOOD IN BAPTISM!
That's an open and shut case!
Who's denying the blood? Hmm?

Next let me point something out to you. You believe in "faith only", yet the only place any where in scripture that mentions that phrase is James 2:24 and it says we are justified "NOT by faith only".

Now notice something that you keep doing. On one side, you are saying we're saved by "faith only". On the other side, you are saying, "we're saved by the blood, not baptism." Then later you're saying that we're saved by Grace, not baptism. Now which is it? Is it "faith only"? or is it "grace only"? or is it "blood only"? or is it faith + grace + blood? May I remind you that if you answer faith + grace + blood, then that's not "faith only" then, is it?

Your argumentation goes like this:
"We're saved by BLOOD, so that rules out BAPTISM."

Then why doesn't the same argumentation go like this?:
"We're saved by BLOOD, so that rules out FAITH."

You see, that doesn't make since. You can't rule out one by proving that Blood has its place in salvation. It only proves that the Blood has saving power. It doesn't rule out either FAITH or BAPTISM. But by your logic, you rule out faith AND baptism. If not, why not?

Please try again and answer these simple questions by answering either (A) or (B). They are not trick questions. Just choose the one that says what the scriptures say.

[size=+2]Which Do You Believe?[/size]

(A) He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized or,
(B) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. (See Mark 16:16)

(A) Baptism is not for remission of sins or,
(B) Baptism is for remission of sins. (See Acts 2:38)

(A) Baptism doth also not save us or,
(B) Baptism doth also now save us. (See 1 Pet. 3:21)

(A) One does not wash away his sins in baptism or,
(B) One washes away his sins in baptism. (See Acts 22:16)

(A) God does not operate in baptism in removing sins or,
(B) God operates in baptism in removing sins. (See Col. 2:11-12)

(A) One has the new life before baptism or,
(B) One is raised from baptism to the new life. (See Rom. 6:3-4)

(A) One puts on Christ before baptized or,
(B) One puts on Christ when he is baptized into Christ. (See Gal. 3:26-27)

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Hello sbbqb7n16,

[size=+2]Which Do You Believe?[/size]

(A) He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized or,
(B) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. (See Mark 16:16)

1 cor 12:13 spirit baptism not water----B

(A) Baptism is not for remission of sins or,
(B) Baptism is for remission of sins. (See Acts 2:38)

This is Water baptism----B


(A) Baptism doth also not save us or,
(B) Baptism doth also now save us. (See 1 Pet. 3:21)

Spirit Baptism ---B


(A) One does not wash away his sins in baptism or,
(B) One washes away his sins in baptism. (See Acts 22:16)


Water baptism-----b

(A) God does not operate in baptism in removing sins or,
(B) God operates in baptism in removing sins. (See Col. 2:11-12)


Spirit Baptism...no water.....B


(A) One has the new life before baptism or,
(B) One is raised from baptism to the new life. (See Rom. 6:3-4)

Spirit Baptism ---- B

(A) One puts on Christ before baptized or,
(B) One puts on Christ when he is baptized into Christ. (See Gal. 3:26-27)

Spirit Baptism 1 cor 12:13 --- B

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

Do you under stand what I am saying?

 

[sbbqb7n16]

No one is denying the Blood. The question is HOW does one contact the Blood? Your argumentation goes like this: Since the Blood saves, baptism don't. Then why won't it work this way?: Since the Blood saves, faith don't.

Read the title of this thread: is Baptism necessary to be saved. I contend that it is not necessary for salvation, only the blood of Christ is.

Simple... you must have faith in the fact that the blood cleanses you. If your faith is in the water you are baptised in, then your faith is in the wrong thing.

Heb*9:22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

You see, your logic is coming back on you. You don't rule out Baptism by quoting passages that says the blood saves. If you do, then you also rule out faith by the same argumentation.

No you don't at all. The blood of Christ is the only thing that can forgive sins (Heb 9:22 again), not some special water. And if the water doesn't save you then it is not necessary for your salvation which is the question this thread asks.

Again, no one is denying the blood. And no one is saying that baptism ALONE could save. It is you that is saying that faith ALONE can. You are correct that baptism alone cannot save. I AGREE with you. The only one that is arguing for something ALONE is you.

Rom 4:5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness

Gal 3:11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, "THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Rom 3:28 For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.

Gal 3:2 This is the only thing I want to find out from you: did you receive the Spirit by the works of the Law, or by hearing with faith?

James 2:22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
James 2:26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

You see... I view baptism as nothing but a work which stems from a heart faith like James talks about in James 2. Your faith will produce automatic works (such as baptism). But it is not the works that save you but rather the faith behind them. Plenty of people do good deeds all the time in the name of Muhammed or Buddha or whoever else, and even under an Old Covenant Judaism... but those works will not save them because there is no faith behind them. And plenty claim to have faith but yet show no works. Thereby we realize that their faith is a dead heart faith and not a living faith pleasing to God which automatically produces works (such as baptism).

Jesus was baptized for a different reason than we should. He was baptized "to fulfill all righteousness" (Mt. 3:15). We should be baptized "for the remissin of sins" (Ac. 2:38). Jesus had no sin to remit.

That water will not save you. Acts 2:38 calls for a Jesus Baptism not a John baptism. As someone pointed out earlier... Jesus does not baptise with water but with the Spirit of God. There is a difference between the two and John's baptism alone is meaningless. (Acts 19:4)

Acts 19:4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."

John's baptism (in water) is only used to direct people to Jesus Christ, but does not save which is why those who Paul was speaking to were baptized again. (Acts 19:5-6)

Explain how.

If there was any other way that you could have been saved... then God would have done it, but there wasn't. Salvation is only through Jesus Christ and available by His blood... not by water and someone dunking you under. Water baptism is simply a work born of faith that is meaningless apart from Christ and will not save you.

Gal 2:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness comes through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."

What that means is that if you are trying to gain righteousness by works (or a work-Gal 5:2-5), then you are trying to establish your own righteousness. Much like the Jews were attempting to do by circumcision (their method of entering the covenant of God by work and not by faith).

Gal 5:2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you.
Gal 5:3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law.
Gal 5:4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
Gal 5:5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness.

If you are therefore baptised to earn your own righteousness, then you must also be obligated to keep the whole Law:

James 2:10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

Therefore our only salvation comes through faith in Jesus Christ, and not in any work.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

And I see baptism to be nothing other than a work that stems from faith.

 

[A Brethren IN CHRIST]

blood is what the H.S. uses to wash us to cover sin once and for all I belief

 

[heb12-2]

Hello "A Brethren IN CHRIST",

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.

(A) He that believeth and is saved shall be baptized or,
(B) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved. (See Mark 16:16)

1 cor 12:13 spirit baptism not water----B

You agreed with B, but claim that this is Spirit baptism. Ok, now do you realize that Mk. 16:15-16 is parallel to Mt. 28:19-20, the Great Commission? Do you realize that water baptism is COMMANDED, and water baptism is administered BY MEN (see Mt. 28:19-20)? Yet Spirit baptism is NEVER commanded (only promised), and only Jesus can baptize in the Holy Spirit (Mt. 3:11). Therefore, the baptism of the Great Commission cannot be Spirit baptism. It must be water.

(A) Baptism is not for remission of sins or,
(B) Baptism is for remission of sins. (See Acts 2:38)

This is Water baptism----B

I'm having a hard time trying to figure out how you are coming to your conclusions of whether a baptism passage is discussing Spirit baptism or water baptism. Are you just picking and choosing or what?
Do you realize that if you are admitting that this is water baptism, that it is "for the remission of sins" according to this verse?

(A) Baptism doth also not save us or,
(B) Baptism doth also now save us. (See 1 Pet. 3:21)

Spirit Baptism ---B

This is clearly not Spirit baptism. Look at the context. Read verse 20, "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water." Peter uses the example of Noah's salvation, and the role that water played in it. Then brings the point home concerning us, and baptism. You are switching major gears, and leaping to unfounded conclusions to say this is Spirit baptism. You are ignoring the context. The context is clearly speaking of water baptism. Now you are going to have to decide whether you want to switch your answer or admit that this is water baptism.

(A) One does not wash away his sins in baptism or,
(B) One washes away his sins in baptism. (See Acts 22:16)

Water baptism-----b

You are admitting that water baptism washes away sins. So are we reaching some point of agreement then?

(A) God does not operate in baptism in removing sins or,
(B) God operates in baptism in removing sins. (See Col. 2:11-12)

Spirit Baptism...no water.....B

This clearly is NOT Spirit baptism, because it talks of "Being buried with him". This is without doubt referring to water baptism. Is that not what we are doing when we are baptized by water?...being "buried with him"?

(A) One has the new life before baptism or,
(B) One is raised from baptism to the new life. (See Rom. 6:3-4)

Spirit Baptism ---- B

This is again water baptism for the same reason the previous one was. This verse also speaks of being "buried with him" (vs.4). Is that not what we are doing when we are baptized by water? We are obeying "that form of doctrine" (vs.17). How can that be Spirit baptism?

(A) One puts on Christ before baptized or,
(B) One puts on Christ when he is baptized into Christ. (See Gal. 3:26-27)

Spirit Baptism 1 cor 12:13 --- B

Again, since "being buried with him" (Rom. 6:4) must be water baptism, and being buried with him is "INTO Jesus Christ" (Rom. 6:3), then water baptism is "into Jesus Christ". Gal. 3:27 talks about being baptized "into Jesus Christ", therefore it is water baptism.

Spirit Baptism 1 cor 12:13 --- B

Did you read my post to you concerning this verse? Please read it and respond to the arguments I presented.

Listen, I think if you will look at the contexts of the baptism passages a little more closely, I think you will find that the passages that you say are Spirit baptism really refer to water baptism. Give it some thought. Let me know if I can help.