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Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

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YAQUBOS

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Should I point out once again that to say one must be baptised in water to be saved means literally that you must depend on a human other than yourself and other than Jesus to save you. In light of this fact the notion of the requirement of water baptism falls flat on its face.

So those of you who say it is required consider the question, Is Jesus able to save those who he came to save or is it only possible when another man help him by dunking you in water, an act which is nothing more than a symbolic ritual that does absolutely nothing to cleanse the soul nor reform the person nor even alter thier beliefs in any way whatsoever.

Although I agree with you that baptism is not necessary FOR Salvation, but I do not agree that it is not necessary IN Salvation.

If you think that if a man baptizes you that means that your Salvation depends of a man, then please answer the following question: How can you know about Jesus if a man does not preach you or give you the Word of God?

YAQUBOS†
 
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YAQUBOS

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I believe Jesus came to fulfill that purpose, however there are requirements of us. We are not all saved so there must be some action taken on our part.

No, we only need to BELIEVE.

I have seen mark 16:16 quoted in here till I am blue in the face and it ALONE doesnt hold water. There are scriptures that say Believe as the scriptures say, whcih mean to put your faith into action.

There was no water baptism prior to the 6 months before Jesus' ministry took off. Why is it that it was introduced even though it was to repentance, it was done.

God expects us to live a certain way, as is so discussed through out the scriptures. I can not get away from Acts 2:38 for some reason. I keep hearing, Jesus had just ascended and was not gone from him for more than 10 days, and did Peter miss the message.

I understand that as time went on Paul had to write the Churches of the time and admonish them for their falling from, from watering down (no pun intended) of the Apostle's Doctrine. However in Acts Jesus had not been gone very long and it is difficult for me to believe that he missed it by that much.

I will contend to this, that without the grace and mercy of Jesus we would just get wet. Being baptised DOES NOT save you but is part of the process that does.

God Bless

Yes, part of the process that DID. Baptism is necessary IN Salvation, not FOR Salvation.

YAQUBOS†
 
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YAQUBOS

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nope... it sure isn't... it's just a symbol of the faith... Jesus was baptized... it didn't save Him though... He did it as a symbol

Let's make sure we understand that Jesus was not baptized with the Christian baptism about which we are talking here.

YAQUBOS†
 
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Sanctuaryandbliss

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This is an enlightening thread. Considering that my pastor has invited me to be baptised at his church.

I am no expert but here is what he told me:

you DO have to except Christ and believe in HIM to be be saved.He said baptism is like the action showing that you indeed are making a commitment in Christ. Its like instead of just saying "I love you" to your girlfriend, you are giving her a ring and asking her to marry you. Baptism is like a confirmation of your words so to speak.

Least thats how him and I understand it. So long story short, according to what I have been taught and in my Honest understanding, no its not Nessasary, Jesus and your belief and love for Him will save you...is it a nice way to show your commited both publically and personally? Yea.

Think it comes down to you, is your word good enough, or do you want to do something more?

~Blessed Be
 
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KCDAD

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In not for, in not for, in not for, in not for... if you say it enough someone might believe it. That was Goebbels's theory of political propaganda.

Nonetheless, the key word is "necessary".... and it is not.

You asked how we would have heard of Jesus without the words of man in the Bible and other scriptures...
Doesn't Jesus reveal himself to you on a daily basis? It isn't like he is still dead in the tomb, you know?
 
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BroGinder

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nope... it sure isn't... it's just a symbol of the faith... Jesus was baptized... it didn't save Him though... He did it as a symbol

Your close, he did it out of obedience, because it is required.

If it were a symbol, what symbol was it? I have never heard that.

Here is what I do not understand. Going through the water did not happen until 6 months prior to Jesus' ministry taking off.

ALL those years under the OLD TESTAMENT (Old Promise, Old WIll) They did not use baptism. There were foreshadows for baptism, but we wont even go there right now.

Then out of the blue John the Baptist, the Cousin of Jesus, starts baptising out of his own desire for symbolism?

Here he was changing the Jewish mindset. Setting the stage for the New Covenant, the New Testament telling them that they MUST be baptised unto repentance.

Why? Because God expected it. Going through the water will not save you. I agree. However, you can not be saved unless you have gone through the water. God's grace saves us through faith I agree. However, there are expected behaviours that he requires of his children.

The choice is yours. You do not have to be baptised. You do not have to stop cussing, drinking, viewing pornography, gambling, smoking, etc... Its not forced on you. The choice is clearly yours. I choose to be a Christian.

Do I have to repent? Or is that a ritual as well? Do I have to invite the Spirit of God in me? Or is that a ritual as well?

I see people going through this beautiful Word of God and taking what they want and discarding what they do not want and then falling on the mercy and grace of God. They call the requirements legalism. Good luck with that.

I know there are many out there that are doing like the Saducees, and the Pharisees with lots of stuff. The plan of salvation is not one of the gray areas left to interpretation. Line upon line, precetp upon precept. the Word says scripture interprets scripture. If you can find not scriputre that releases the need for baptism. I would suggest a review in your "personal" interpretation.

For what it is worth. Common sense, as has been suggested, wont hold a candle to the Word.

I am as passionate as you about our Lord. I have a great deal of Love for man kind and only wish to assist those who desire a deeper walk with him. It is a sandy foundation if there can not be found scripture that forgoes the water, the beautiful application of the blood, the taking on of the Name of Jesus.

Why can you not offer scripture that removes the requirement? Because it was not removed my friends. It is still part of the plan of salvation.

In His service,
Bro Ginder
 
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BroGinder

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No, we only need to BELIEVE.

No, we must believe as the scripture says. Thats what the Word says.



Yes, part of the process that DID. Baptism is necessary IN Salvation, not FOR Salvation.

YAQUBOS†

Ok but without it you wont be saved. Its not the saving action, it is however, required to be saved.
 
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BroGinder

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Let me challenge you for a moment to reflect. How did Jesus say you would know those that follow him? There were several sets of scripture that depcit what you would see.

Think about it, think about if you see that were you sit now. If you do not I would re-evaluate where I was sitting.

EDITED TO ADD THE FOLLOWING:

John 13:34-35
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
KJV

This shows me that it takes more than just simple belief. It has to be in motion. Can you show Love without doing a thing? No.

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18.They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
KJV

Just want to point out verse 16 there. Its the Mark 16:16 that many use to show belief is all that is needed. However the requirement of Baptism is stated. The Comforter, Holy Spirit, Holy Ghost dwelt in him at this time, so he was not talking about baptism of the Spirit. :thumbsup:
 
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evangelist

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Your close, he did it out of obedience, because it is required.

If it were a symbol, what symbol was it? I have never heard that.

Here is what I do not understand. Going through the water did not happen until 6 months prior to Jesus' ministry taking off.

ALL those years under the OLD TESTAMENT (Old Promise, Old WIll) They did not use baptism. There were foreshadows for baptism, but we wont even go there right now.

Then out of the blue John the Baptist, the Cousin of Jesus, starts baptising out of his own desire for symbolism?

Here he was changing the Jewish mindset. Setting the stage for the New Covenant, the New Testament telling them that they MUST be baptised unto repentance.

Why? Because God expected it. Going through the water will not save you. I agree. However, you can not be saved unless you have gone through the water. God's grace saves us through faith I agree. However, there are expected behaviours that he requires of his children.

The choice is yours. You do not have to be baptised. You do not have to stop cussing, drinking, viewing pornography, gambling, smoking, etc... Its not forced on you. The choice is clearly yours. I choose to be a Christian.

Do I have to repent? Or is that a ritual as well? Do I have to invite the Spirit of God in me? Or is that a ritual as well?

I see people going through this beautiful Word of God and taking what they want and discarding what they do not want and then falling on the mercy and grace of God. They call the requirements legalism. Good luck with that.

I know there are many out there that are doing like the Saducees, and the Pharisees with lots of stuff. The plan of salvation is not one of the gray areas left to interpretation. Line upon line, precetp upon precept. the Word says scripture interprets scripture. If you can find not scriputre that releases the need for baptism. I would suggest a review in your "personal" interpretation.

For what it is worth. Common sense, as has been suggested, wont hold a candle to the Word.

I am as passionate as you about our Lord. I have a great deal of Love for man kind and only wish to assist those who desire a deeper walk with him. It is a sandy foundation if there can not be found scripture that forgoes the water, the beautiful application of the blood, the taking on of the Name of Jesus.

Why can you not offer scripture that removes the requirement? Because it was not removed my friends. It is still part of the plan of salvation.

In His service,
Bro Ginder

So are you saying baptism saves?
The bible teaches we should get batized , just like we should pray for Israel, and bless others renew your mind and etc, but that is all in our christian walk,the thing we would do because we have a new nature of Jesus.
But before all that we must be saved already born again and have eternal life now, and salvation,
the fruits after this would b to read your bible, study,help the poor give offerings,pray,witness,and sooner or latter also get baptized, heal the sick,raise the dead, and help the windows, and etc.
 
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BroGinder

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Originally Posted by BroGinder
Your close, he did it out of obedience, because it is required.

If it were a symbol, what symbol was it? I have never heard that.

Here is what I do not understand. Going through the water did not happen until 6 months prior to Jesus' ministry taking off.

ALL those years under the OLD TESTAMENT (Old Promise, Old WIll) They did not use baptism. There were foreshadows for baptism, but we wont even go there right now.

Then out of the blue John the Baptist, the Cousin of Jesus, starts baptising out of his own desire for symbolism?

Here he was changing the Jewish mindset. Setting the stage for the New Covenant, the New Testament telling them that they MUST be baptised unto repentance.

Why? Because God expected it. #1 Going through the water will not save you. I agree. However, you can not be saved unless you have gone through the water. God's grace saves us through faith I agree. However, there are expected behaviours that he requires of his children.

The choice is yours. You do not have to be baptised. You do not have to stop cussing, drinking, viewing pornography, gambling, smoking, etc... Its not forced on you. The choice is clearly yours. I choose to be a Christian.

Do I have to repent? Or is that a ritual as well? Do I have to invite the Spirit of God in me? Or is that a ritual as well?

I see people going through this beautiful Word of God and taking what they want and discarding what they do not want and then falling on the mercy and grace of God. They call the requirements legalism. Good luck with that.

I know there are many out there that are doing like the Saducees, and the Pharisees with lots of stuff. The plan of salvation is not one of the gray areas left to interpretation. Line upon line, precetp upon precept. the Word says scripture interprets scripture. If you can find not scriputre that releases the need for baptism. I would suggest a review in your "personal" interpretation.

For what it is worth. Common sense, as has been suggested, wont hold a candle to the Word.

I am as passionate as you about our Lord. I have a great deal of Love for man kind and only wish to assist those who desire a deeper walk with him. It is a sandy foundation if there can not be found scripture that forgoes the water, the beautiful application of the blood, the taking on of the Name of Jesus.

Why can you not offer scripture that removes the requirement? Because it was not removed my friends. It is still part of the plan of salvation.

In His service,
Bro Ginder




So are you saying baptism saves?
The bible teaches we should get batized , just like we should pray for Israel, and bless others renew your mind and etc, but that is all in our christian walk,the thing we would do because we have a new nature of Jesus.
But before all that we must be saved already born again and have eternal life now, and salvation,
the fruits after this would b to read your bible, study,help the poor give offerings,pray,witness,and sooner or latter also get baptized, heal the sick,raise the dead, and help the windows, and etc.

I have included your statement with mine and I have bolded the portion that answers your first question.

Mark 16:15-18
15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Yet another quote from post. Believe and are baptized are saved. It does not say, saved and then baptized. It says believe and are baptized are saved. Its not my scripture but the Word of God. It seems ot be clear.

No this is not referring to the Holy ghost baptism as this was Jesus speaking and he had not yet sent the Comforter, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit. He was tlaking about baptism through the water. Three are no other forms of Baptism in the bible. One by water the other by fire and the Holy Ghost

God Bless
 
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KCDAD

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[/I]





I have included your statement with mine and I have bolded the portion that answers your first question.

[/COLOR]

Yet another quote from post. Believe and are baptized are saved. It does not say, saved and then baptized. It says believe and are baptized are saved. Its not my scripture but the Word of God. It seems ot be clear.

No this is not referring to the Holy ghost baptism as this was Jesus speaking and he had not yet sent the Comforter, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit. He was tlaking about baptism through the water. Three are no other forms of Baptism in the bible. One by water the other by fire and the Holy Ghost

God Bless
Yeah, and it says only those who do not believe will be damned... baptism isn't an essential part of the equation.
Unfortunately you can't look too closely at that passage or you'll become a cynic... or even worse, a liberal.
 
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Soul Searcher

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Yep and let's also not forget that the verse in question does not occur in the earlier copies of Mark and likely was added at a later date by a different person for whatever reason. It [the verse that is] is surely a pretty weak argument for mandatory water baptism especially when so many passages indicate that this is not the case at all.

Jesus said that if you forgive those who trespass against you your father will forgive you. He did not say if you forgive and are baptised. He said the merciful shall obtain mercy and did not say the mericful who have been baptised shall obtain mercy.

He said we shall be judged as we judge others. So I suppose that if one judges those who may not have been baptised as unsaved then that person better hope that she/he has been baptised, for it is not the one they are judging whose fate hangs in the balance of this judgment ;)
 
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evangelist

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[/i]





I have included your statement with mine and I have bolded the portion that answers your first question.

[/color]

Yet another quote from post. Believe and are baptized are saved. It does not say, saved and then baptized. It says believe and are baptized are saved. Its not my scripture but the Word of God. It seems ot be clear.

No this is not referring to the Holy ghost baptism as this was Jesus speaking and he had not yet sent the Comforter, Holy Ghost, Holy Spirit. He was tlaking about baptism through the water. Three are no other forms of Baptism in the bible. One by water the other by fire and the Holy Ghost

God Bless
If I say, "Repent and come to the front of the church so that you may have eternal life," I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation or getting water baptized is necessary.for salvation.
 
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BroGinder

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Yeah, and it says only those who do not believe will be damned... baptism isn't an essential part of the equation.
Unfortunately you can't look too closely at that passage or you'll become a cynic... or even worse, a liberal.

Or maybe obedient?
 
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BroGinder

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Yep and let's also not forget that the verse in question does not occur in the earlier copies of Mark and likely was added at a later date by a different person for whatever reason. It [the verse that is] is surely a pretty weak argument for mandatory water baptism especially when so many passages indicate that this is not the case at all.

Jesus said that if you forgive those who trespass against you your father will forgive you. He did not say if you forgive and are baptised. He said the merciful shall obtain mercy and did not say the mericful who have been baptised shall obtain mercy.

He said we shall be judged as we judge others. So I suppose that if one judges those who may not have been baptised as unsaved then that person better hope that she/he has been baptised, for it is not the one they are judging whose fate hangs in the balance of this judgment ;)


I am pretty sure that I would not hang my hat on your comments about the book of Mark. However, even if your right I supplied several scriptures that demonstrated the importance of Baptism. All I have asked is for one that removes this requirement. God Bless you my friend.

The enemy of your soul knows the Word of God. He knew it in the garden and allowed Eve to misquote it and then use what she said, which was not what God said, to cost her everything. Think about it.

God Bless
 
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BroGinder

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If I say, "Repent and come to the front of the church so that you may have eternal life," I may or may not believe coming forward is a necessary condition for salvation. But, if I clearly taught elsewhere that repentance/belief alone was sufficient no one would think coming forward is necessary for salvation or getting water baptized is necessary.for salvation.

If I relied on a man to teach me that I would agree with you. However I did not quote any man other than God's Word.

Maybe you can demonstrate through scripture where the requirement of water baptism was removed.

I look forward to the study. God Bless
 
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KCDAD

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Or maybe obedient?
Obedient to what? Additional text added later? Chapter 16 of Mark is not original Gospel text. (at least everything after verse 9) Why not be obedient to the Book of Mormon then?
 
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KCDAD

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I am pretty sure that I would not hang my hat on your comments about the book of Mark. However, even if your right I supplied several scriptures that demonstrated the importance of Baptism. All I have asked is for one that removes this requirement. God Bless you my friend.

The enemy of your soul knows the Word of God. He knew it in the garden and allowed Eve to misquote it and then use what she said, which was not what God said, to cost her everything. Think about it.

God Bless
"Enemy of your soul"? Who are you talking about? We are the enemy of our own soul.
 
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