Is baptism necessary to be saved? (2)

[BroGinder]

The facts do not change. We liev in the time of the Gentiles. We are not required to bring a blood sacrafice for our sins. We are required to be baptized for the remission of our sins. The implied expectation is that you have been circumcised inyour heart, like the circumcision of the Old Testament. Never going back to how you used to be.

The diffrence between then and now is that if you stumble you have the blood applied to your life already all you must do is find a moment of repentance and it is blotted along with the rest.

If you are in a Church that does not baptize and you are following that shepard I would say that you ought to seek God's Word deeper.

The preacher will not determine your eternity, we must each work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Meaning we are not to follow a shepard blindly. There are many that will land in eternal lake of fire because they did not question the leadings of the men of God. Men with the "Jim Syndrome".

You keep running back to Mark, I do not. I have quoted it on a couple occasions. I defer to Acts 2:38, Repent, be Baptized in Jesus name, and you shall recieve the Holy Ghost. Or was it changed later as well.

We live in a society that wants to put God in a box that fits their needs. The less it requires of them the greater the doctrine. God expects the same things from us he did from the days of old. Minus the blood sacrafices as that has been taken care of forever. To be Holy and perfect in his sight (a condition of the heart), to be obedient to his Word. What exactly do you see you must do to be saved?

It WILL take Repentance, it WILL take Baptism, and it WILL take a filling of the Holy Ghost for your salvation to be complete. Those are the ingredients. Miss one and the ingreditens are not there.

Follow what ever you feel, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

God Bless you and your search for a closer walk with him.

 

[KCDAD]

The facts do not change. We liev in the time of the Gentiles. We are not required to bring a blood sacrafice for our sins. We are required to be baptized for the remission of our sins. The implied expectation is that you have been circumcised inyour heart, like the circumcision of the Old Testament. Never going back to how you used to be.

The diffrence between then and now is that if you stumble you have the blood applied to your life already all you must do is find a moment of repentance and it is blotted along with the rest.

If you are in a Church that does not baptize and you are following that shepard I would say that you ought to seek God's Word deeper.

The preacher will not determine your eternity, we must each work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Meaning we are not to follow a shepard blindly. There are many that will land in eternal lake of fire because they did not question the leadings of the men of God. Men with the "Jim Syndrome".

You keep running back to Mark, I do not. I have quoted it on a couple occasions. I defer to Acts 2:38, Repent, be Baptized in Jesus name, and you shall recieve the Holy Ghost. Or was it changed later as well.

We live in a society that wants to put God in a box that fits their needs. The less it requires of them the greater the doctrine. God expects the same things from us he did from the days of old. Minus the blood sacrafices as that has been taken care of forever. To be Holy and perfect in his sight (a condition of the heart), to be obedient to his Word. What exactly do you see you must do to be saved?

It WILL take Repentance, it WILL take Baptism, and it WILL take a filling of the Holy Ghost for your salvation to be complete. Those are the ingredients. Miss one and the ingreditens are not there.

Follow what ever you feel, as for me and my house we will serve the Lord.

God Bless you and your search for a closer walk with him.

The time of the Gentiles? What is that? There has always been non-Jews in the world (even longer than there has been Jews.)

So baptism was required before the Jews and now after, but not during?

Ahhh that's why someone compared the Bible to a cookbook. You have to add all the ingredients in order to get the magic spell to work... like a sorcerer mixing a potion. Is there a substitution for water in the baptism requirement? Could I be baptized in milk instead? (It would add a little extra to the flavor of my salvation)

 

[Soul Searcher]

The facts do not change. We liev in the time of the Gentiles. We are not required to bring a blood sacrafice for our sins. We are required to be baptized for the remission of our sins. The implied expectation is that you have been circumcised inyour heart, like the circumcision of the Old Testament. Never going back to how you used to be.

That's true the facts do not change but it seems that there are some facts which you are ignoring.

The diffrence between then and now is that if you stumble you have the blood applied to your life already all you must do is find a moment of repentance and it is blotted along with the rest.

A moment of repentance? Do you know what repentance means? It doesn;t mean to simply say I am sorry or ask for forgiveness. It means to be truly soory for the things you have done and to change your ways [or at least try] and not for a moment but for life.

If you are in a Church that does not baptize and you are following that shepard I would say that you ought to seek God's Word deeper.

The only shepard I follow is Jesus.

The preacher will not determine your eternity, we must each work out our own salvation with fear and trembling. Meaning we are not to follow a shepard blindly. There are many that will land in eternal lake of fire because they did not question the leadings of the men of God. Men with the "Jim Syndrome".

Yet in the senario I laid out the preacher does determine your fate according to the doctorine you are using. As you said the facts do not change.

You keep running back to Mark, I do not. I have quoted it on a couple occasions. I defer to Acts 2:38, Repent, be Baptized in Jesus name, and you shall recieve the Holy Ghost. Or was it changed later as well.

I only mentioned Mark because Mark is the one that places these words in the mouth of Jesus.

Why do you seemingly ignore the teachings of Jesus in favor of Acts?

 

[BroGinder]

That's true the facts do not change but it seems that there are some facts which you are ignoring.

I am not ignoring anything. you have not offered me anything to review but your opinion.

A moment of repentance? Do you know what repentance means? It doesn;t mean to simply say I am sorry or ask for forgiveness. It means to be truly soory for the things you have done and to change your ways [or at least try] and not for a moment but for life.

Lets not throw darts here and play on "Exact" words of mine or yours. I am very familiar with the word repentance, it does not mean to be truly sorry, it means,as in my previously posted response, to turn 180 away from and walk away. To no longer do those things. To change. It is not merely an appology. That wont do it.

The only shepard I follow is Jesus.

So you do not attend a gathering of the Church?

Yet in the senario I laid out the preacher does determine your fate according to the doctorine you are using. As you said the facts do not change.

No preacher can force you in the water. If he does you just got wet. You have to be lead to the water by God. If you are diligently sekeing his voice you will hear him calling you to be obedient to his Word.

I only mentioned Mark because Mark is the one that places these words in the mouth of Jesus.

Why do you seemingly ignore the teachings of Jesus in favor of Acts?

If I take the line of thought you are using with me and trying to turn my wrds around I would ask you this. So you do not think the Apostles taught the message Jesus taught? That the only portion of the Bible with merit are the words in red. If thats the case better discard the old testament.

No I never said that. Listen, your becoming argumentative, while I am asking you over and over for the scripture you BASE your following of Jesus. What are you following? Where is it based. Was it a thought put in your head? Did God speak it direct to you. What?

You have said you find no scripture that says no need for baptism. I offered you plenty that says it is required. I base my following on the Word of God.

I have asked you for scripture that is contrary to this not to prove you right but to show me I am wrong. I want to walk in a fullness of truth. I subscribe to a walk that is about seeking the Spirit of Truth. Leading people in truth as the Word of God states it.

So if I am wrong, I would need to se eit in the Word of God. As one perosn put it on here, I am indeed a Bible Christian. I am not a Nicean Council Christian. hence this being in the Non-Nicean Faiths threads.

I so appreciate you Soul Seeker. You have a strong deisre and Love for God. Thats not everone who posts here desire.

God Bless

 

[Soul Searcher]

I am not ignoring anything. you have not offered me anything to review but your opinion.

Lets not throw darts here and play on "Exact" words of mine or yours. I am very familiar with the word repentance, it does not mean to be truly sorry, it means,as in my previously posted response, to turn 180 away from and walk away. To no longer do those things. To change. It is not merely an appology. That wont do it.

Perhaps I missunderstood you said a moment of repentance. If you meant a permanent change it certianly did not come across in your post.

So you do not attend a gathering of the Church?

That's not what I said now is it? In fact it is not even close. I said the only shepard I follow is Jesus. As for following men I follow only if they are in front and heading in the same direction as me, if you can call that following.

No preacher can force you in the water. If he does you just got wet. You have to be lead to the water by God. If you are diligently sekeing his voice you will hear him calling you to be obedient to his Word.

Either you missed the point or are trying to avoid it let me make it more clear for you. If a man comes to the preacher and asks to be baptised the preacher can refuse to do it for any number of reasons. This is what I have pointed out and the doctorine you teach is that the man refused would go to hell from not having been baptised. Again when followed through to the logical conclusion the result proves the notion to be nonsense no man has the power to save nor condemn and other man.

If I take the line of thought you are using with me and trying to turn my wrds around I would ask you this. So you do not think the Apostles taught the message Jesus taught? That the only portion of the Bible with merit are the words in red. If thats the case better discard the old testament.

Jesus did not teach that baptism is a requirement of salvation. Anyone who teaches that it is is not teaching the same thing that Jesus taught. And to answer your question yes I place higher priority on the words of Jesus than any of his followers, none of them truly understood what he was teaching and they were prone to make mistakes.

No I never said that. Listen, your becoming argumentative, while I am asking you over and over for the scripture you BASE your following of Jesus. What are you following? Where is it based. Was it a thought put in your head? Did God speak it direct to you. What?

Jesus did not teach mandatory baptism. You use acts to try and prove that it is mandatory which indicates to me that you are favoring acts over the words of Jesus and I did not say that you said that.

You have not asked me over and over for the scripture I base my following Jesus on. Yet I have given reference to a few scriptures along the way.

You have said you find no scripture that says no need for baptism. I offered you plenty that says it is required. I base my following on the Word of God.

Did I? I think I said that I found none which said baptism was required. I have found many that indicate it is not but none that directly state it.

I have asked you for scripture that is contrary to this not to prove you right but to show me I am wrong. I want to walk in a fullness of truth. I subscribe to a walk that is about seeking the Spirit of Truth. Leading people in truth as the Word of God states it.

Again read the sermon on the mount or better still the entire book of Matthew you will find many things in there that indicate water baptism is not required.

So if I am wrong, I would need to se eit in the Word of God. As one perosn put it on here, I am indeed a Bible Christian. I am not a Nicean Council Christian. hence this being in the Non-Nicean Faiths threads.

I so appreciate you Soul Seeker. You have a strong deisre and Love for God. Thats not everone who posts here desire.

God Bless

So if we assume that water baptism is required for salvation then what woudl you say to the following?

Does the merciful man who is not baptized obtain mercy?
Does the forgiving man who is not baptized obtain forgiveness?

If the answer to either question is no then why did Jesus say they would? And if the answer to either question is yes but you still think that they end up in hell you must ask yourself is there any mercy or forgiveness in being sent to hell.

I think I am pretty much done here, while there are literally hundreds of scriptures on common sense arguments I could make against it I really don't want to keep posting right now. To many other things to do but the bottom line is if God would send anyone to hell for not being dunked in the water by a preacher then surely God is not worthy of our love.

 

[BroGinder]

I will suffice to say this. If a preacher would not baptize me I would baptize myself.

As far as saying that the Inspired Word of God is full of errors posted by the Apostles who did not understand what he was saying. I can not say that.

I would also agree we are walking around in circles he said and he said. I would say a person not willing to be dunked in the Name of Jesus would still be Loved anyway, though falling short.

God bless my friend

 

[KCDAD]

Baptize yourself? Why not forgive yourself, too, while you are at it and then you don't need anything?

 

[BroGinder]

Baptize yourself? Why not forgive yourself, too, while you are at it and then you don't need anything?

You are a wise scholar my friend to recognize how often it is us that has not forgiven ourselves. We repent over the same stuff over and over and over again, when God has already forgiven us. We allow the enemy of our souls (the devil or one of his minions, just for clarity) to rub our noses in our past failures.

There is power in forgiving ones self for falling, and restoration in God's faithful forgivness for us.

 

[evangelist]

If I relied on a man to teach me that I would agree with you. However I did not quote any man other than God's Word.

Maybe you can demonstrate through scripture where the requirement of water baptism was removed.

I look forward to the study. God Bless

I agree we all should get baptized sooner or latter ,but the point is how peple try to make the water baptism the salvation message or we get saved by the ritual, but water doesn't save anyone it is the blood of Jesus and the relationship with Christ.

 

[evangelist]

So everyone is saved no matter what. If we have to do nothing to be saved, God picks and chooses or we are all saved by what you posted there. That is not what the Word of God says. It is a journey, there is an expectged behaviour. "be Holy" thats action on our part. "thou shall not" That requires action on our part to not do something. "thou shalt Love the Lord thy God with all thy heart" thats an action. Demonstrate love with no action. You cant.

So back to the Baptism. To clarify once again Baptism does not save you. You can get in the water a dry devil and come out a wet one. However, it is one of the ingredients needed to be saved.

Here is more scripture:
Heb 6:1-2
6:1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
KJV

If this was a added need to the good gospel then what does the blood of Jesus accomplish?
What is the baptism of the blood of Jesus ?
Is that voided because the water is added?

 

[KCDAD]

Why is that Christians seem to believe that being saved is something that happens to you? (Like getting a tooth removed)
Being saved is a state of grace that is given freely by God to ALL.
I always like this "bumper sticker theology": Everyone is saved, the only difference between a Christian and someone else is the Christian knows it.

 

[BroGinder]

Why is that Christians seem to believe that being saved is something that happens to you? (Like getting a tooth removed)
Being saved is a state of grace that is given freely by God to ALL.
I always like this "bumper sticker theology": Everyone is saved, the only difference between a Christian and someone else is the Christian knows it.

My question is why do people think they can live like hell and not be a witness for Christ, not be a Loving person and fulfill his Word and expect to go to Heaven with him.

We are not ALL saved. Or there would be no plan of salvation it would just be done. I can assure you that Jesus did not bleed out on Calvary for us to just walk all over the ground he bled upon with no regard for his Word.

This world had better open their eyes and stop thinking they can live ANY WAY they choose so long as they just believe in Jesus. WRONG!

My God robed himself in flesh endured the beating, endured the cross so that I "might" have salvation. How might I through obedience to his Word.

There is a plan and if you refuse to adhere to it you wont make. Wopnt change the fact that God loves you cause he always will. However, he wants you to Love him unconditionally in return. Failure to do so is refusing him. Failure to be obedient to his Word is a failure to Love him unconditionally.

True Christians do know that they are saved, many professing Christians hope they are saved, and even more know they are not saved.

I assure you this, without Love for one another, without Love for God, his Grace wont, cant save you. Why, because that would make him a liar and he is not a liar. His Word is true. Every word every book including Mark.

Blowing pipe dreams that just belief is enough is causeing alot of people to go to hell. there are plenty of scripture to cover the false doctrine the watered down truths the false prophets. Easy-believism is a lie from a devils hell to fill her gates. A place not designed for you or I yet the borders of hell have been enlarged to fit all that refuse to be obedient and accpet Jesus as Lor dand saviour.

As a preacher it would be a much easier message to preach, and if it were that easy trust me I would preach it. I am called to teach and preach the truth.

God Bless you my friend.

 

[KCDAD]

Go to heaven? Heaven isn't some place you go, silly boy.
You are either in heaven or hell right now or you ain't never gonna get there.

"True Christians"? You had better be careful my judgmental friend.

 

[Soul Searcher]

There is a plan and if you refuse to adhere to it you wont make. Wopnt change the fact that God loves you cause he always will. However, he wants you to Love him unconditionally in return. Failure to do so is refusing him. Failure to be obedient to his Word is a failure to Love him unconditionally.

What nonsense

So God loves you unconditionaly on condition of ...

....but you are to love God uncodintionaly without conditions.

Funny isn't it how such doctorines command humans display a love for God that is far superior to Gods love for the human and failure to do so means eternal torture in the most unimagionable horrific and evil ways. Some love that is.

Ask yourself this, would you totally love the being that is currently torturing your mother, father, brothers, sisters, children, friends, neighbors, strangers? Even if you thought this torture would continue forever? Would it make you happy to bow down before such a monster? Would you join him in this torturing of your loved ones if he asked it of you?

If the answer is No then can you really say you have unconditional love?
If the answer is yes then .....

The bible tells us that Jesus came to save the world, not just you and me but the whole world, that it is Gods will that all be saved and he is not willing that any should perish, that all things were given over to Jesus and of that he was given he should lose nothing but will raise them up on the last day, each in his own order. That no one can come to him without the father draw them and that salvation is not of ourselves but is given freely by the grace of God.

If even one soul were to end up in hell that would be one to many.

 

[BroGinder]

I will continue to pray for you both greatly. I covet your prayers as well. I'll not continue a debate on opinion. Jesus is coming after a Church that has made themselves ready.

Good luck with anything else.

 

[KCDAD]

I will continue to pray for you both greatly. I covet your prayers as well. I'll not continue a debate on opinion. Jesus is coming after a Church that has made themselves ready.

Good luck with anything else.

Don't hold your breath waiting for Jesus to return. He already did. That's what the Holy Spirit is.

 

[Soul Searcher]

I will continue to pray for you both greatly. I covet your prayers as well. I'll not continue a debate on opinion. Jesus is coming after a Church that has made themselves ready.

Good luck with anything else.

So I take it that you are unable to address the questions

For the record it is not just an opinion. To torutre anyone is not love. It is evil. To punish without measure is not mercy it is merciless. To do good for only those who offer you unconditional love is not unconditional love at all.

Likewise to punish in hell for eternity for not having been baptised is far from a loving thing to do and this is a fact that anyone with even the smallest shred of compassion in thier heart should see that this is true.

Most humans would treat a ugly stray dog better than what most churches teach that God treats his lost. Are we that much superior to God or is the doctorine just flat out wrong.

 

[slycoperofer]

thats a very complicated answe...NO.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

This thread was split automatically after 1000 replies and this thread has been automatically created.
The old thread automatically closed is here: "Is baptism necessary to be saved?"

Yes.

 

[YAQUBOS]

Clarification again.

#1- Baptism alone does not save you, however, your salvation is not complete wihtout it. It is a required ingredient in the process.

#2- Your not saved by faith but through faith by grace. If you think that you can do nothing to be saved you will never be saved. How do you show someone you believe in them and do nothing that they said for you to do.

#3- This whole Mark scripture was added later is rubbish. You can go ahead and take that stand if you want to. Thats clearly what the enemy of your soul wants to convince your mind to discredit the Word of God. So beit you can answer for that I wont.

#4- If you think that there are not rules, Laws, that God expects us to abide by which is the demonstration of our faith, then I htink maybe some further research may be in order. There are plenty of people who think they can go to Church on Sunday and be all Holy and then live like Hell on Monday. Its not going to work.

Holiness is on the inside, and it spills over to the outside and is evident by how we talk, act, dress, etc...

Anyway. Baptism is REQUIRED, I have demonstrated over and over through scripture that this is a must need. It is not the only NEED for salvation for without grace it would all be for not. One must Repent, be Baptized in JEsus Name, and recieve the gift of the Holy Ghost to be saved. Thats the plan. Its simple and man tries to complicate it, discredit it.

God Bless you all

And my clarification:

#1- Baptism does not contribute in your Salvation in any way. It is part of the Salvation that you receive by faith alone. Example: The thief on the cross was saved and his Salvation was complete WITHOUT baptism. He was not a disciple of Christ, but a thief.

#2- When we say that we are saved by faith alone, we mean it is by Grace alone through faith alone. And good works are what SHOWS the genuinness of your faith and not a condition of your Salvation.

#3- Mark 16:16 is part of the Scripture.

#4- Saying that the Gospel is different from the Law doesn't mean that we live a lawless life. Make sure you know what is the difference between the Law and the Gospel. Jesus didn't bring another Law like that of Moses. You can't be saved by the Law.

Yes, baptism is REQUIRED as a PART of Salvation and not as a condition FOR Salvation. Yes it is a MUST, but not FOR Salvation, just as good works are a MUST as a fruit of Salvation and not as a condition FOR Salvation.

When you say that baptism is a must in ADDITION to Grace, you show by this that you don't know that Baptism ALSO is part of God's Grace... I hope you will realize this soon.

Being saved by Grace alone through faith alone means to repent and be baptized and to receive the Holy Spirit. Repenting, being baptized and receiving the Holy Spirit are not CONDITIONS for Salvation, but they are all parts of that Salvation.

By the way: How could you imagine that an unsaved person can receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE he is saved?

YAQUBOS†