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Is baptism neccesary for salvation?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Martin Luther, May 5, 2002.

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  1. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    +37
     
  2. gvsexpress

    gvsexpress New Member

    4
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    It seems edpobre and cougan are "Church of Christ." Many in the "Church of Christ" believe that their denomination is the "Lord's Church" and all those who are not apart of "The Lord's Church" are not Christians at all.

    A typical verse used against "the denominations" (all those who are not them) is the following passage:

    Matthew 7

    21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


    God's plan of salvation that is emphasized in the COC is a five step process. It a process based on God doing his part and man doing his part.

    "Though God's part is the big part, man's part is also necessary if man is to reach heaven. Man must comply with the conditions of pardon which the Lord has announced. Man's part can clearly set forth in the following steps:

    Hear the Gospel. "How shall they call on him whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?" (Romans 10:14).

    Believe. "And without faith it is impossible to be well pleasing unto him; for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that seek after him" (Hebrews 11:6).

    Repent of past sins. "The times of ignorance therefore God overlooked; but now he commandeth men that they should all everywhere repent" (Acts 17:30).

    Confess Jesus as Lord. "Behold here is water; What doth hinder me to be baptized ? And Philip said, if thou believeth with all thy heart thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God" (Acts 8:36-37).

    Be baptized for the remission of sins. "And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38).

    Live a Christian life. "Ye are an elect race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God's own possession, that ye may show forth the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light" (1 Peter 2:9)." - http://church-of-christ.org/who.html#howto

    If you do not believe baptism (immersion) is for the remission of sins and were not baptized believing it is for the remission of sins, they do not consider you a Christian.

    Furthermore, even if you did believe baptism is for the remission of sins and were baptized that way, and you worshipped on Sundays with a piano, Many in the COC would not consider you a brother.
     
  3. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    ""I want to see scripture to support your belief - NOT assumption NOR interpretation. "

    So why did Christ get baptised? Did he have sin that needed to be cleansed?

    I'm afraid you are still not answering my question. My question is this: "Whose idea is it that 'baptizing is the outward declaration that I am a Christian. It's declaring my allegiance to God.' Is there a biblical support for this belief?"
    "

    Ed, would you please address my objection in answer to your question instead of sidestepping it. Thanks. So again, why was Jesus baptised if it is for the remission of sins and to make you a christian. Was christ not a "christian"?
     
  4. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

    366
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    For the record, baptism before the death of Christ was a Jewish thing, where immersion was a symbol of being purified. I can find you guys more information if you want on this.

    Christ could not have been a Christian since by definition, Christ died and was raised again so people could become Christians. Those who died before Christ had no opportunity to become a "Christian," as such.

    It is interesting that it is not until Christ was baptized that He received the Holy Spirit. That's why I think that He did not do any miracles until that time.

    Now, do I believe that it is necessary to be baptized to have sins forgive? Nah. All the passages that deal with being saved have nothing to do with baptism. I think baptism is an outward expression (a type of confessing) in the same manner that the Jewish converts were baptized.

    Here's a thought. John baptized asking those to "Repent!" What did Christ have to repent from? (That's a rhetorical question and doesn't need an answer.)
     
  5. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
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    L Booth,

    The answer to your question is given by John himself,

    John 1
    29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

    31 And I knew him not: but that he should be made manifest to Israel, therefore am I come baptizing with water.
    33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him,the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the Son of God.

    John himself states, that he came baptizing with water, that he might make known unto Israel, He who takes away the SIN of the world, the same is HE who baptizes with the Holy Ghost,

    Jesus the Christ.







    The word has all the answers, why ask a man, for opinions.
    RICHARD
     
  6. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
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    As for why was Jesus baptized;

    Mt 3
    13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
    14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
    15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer(Let) it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then John consented.


    Jesus's answer to this question is "to fulfill all righteousnesss ."





    Richard
     
  7. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    "Christ could not have been a Christian since by definition, Christ died and was raised again so people could become Christians. "

    Under the strictest defination there were christians before christ's death.

    "It is interesting that it is not until Christ was baptized that He received the Holy Spirit. That's why I think that He did not do any miracles until that time"

    /me thinks you need to rethink that answer
    ;)

    Exactly lion!! Its a sanctification thing, not a salvation thing. Christ was baptised to show us the example, not for salvation purposes, for that's what baptism is, its a physical representation of the spiritual change that has already happened. IE..a ritual with meaning but not having anything "saving" about it.
     
  8. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

    366
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    Christian


    If these people were to die before Christ's death, they would not go to Heaven, but instead Paradise, or Sheol as it was known to the Hebrews. It is only after Christ's resurrection that sin was overcome. Under what definition could you say that CHrist was not a Christian.

    Why? Didn't the Holy Spirit decend like a dove after he was baptized? Wasn't his first miracle the turning of water into wine...after he was baptized? Where am I wrong here?

    Lion - what does it mean to "fulfill all righteousness?" Wasn't he righteous enough? He was God, in fact.
     
  9. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +62
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    "It is only after Christ's resurrection that sin was overcome"

    and I'd disagree with you. Once you are dead you're not longer bound to time. Christ's sacrifice was time transendant.


    "Why? Didn't the Holy Spirit decend like a dove after he was baptized? Wasn't his first miracle the turning of water into wine...after he was baptized? Where am I wrong here?
    "

    Check Col 2:8 it doesn't say after he was baptised now does it?
    "Wasn't he righteous enough? He was God, in fact."

    Do you not read what people post? As an example. *sigh*
     
  10. Ben johnson

    Ben johnson Legend Supporter

    +384
    Christian
    "(water) Baptism now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body, but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience...
    "For all of you who were immersed into Christ...
    You have been immersed into His death. As Christ was raised from the dead, so too shall we walk in newness of life..."
    Arise, and be baptized (water), AND wash away your sins, CALLING ON HIS NAME...
    "Repent and be (water) baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins...

    Question: Does any Scripture state that "sins are removed by water"? Or does Scripture very plainly state that "you were washed, sanctified, justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God"? (1Cor6:11)

    Please read Eph1:7: "In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins". What forgives sins? Di-hydrogen-oxide? Or Jesus' name AND HIS BLOOD? Can't be both, hasta be one-or-the-other.

    "I baptize with WATER; ...but he who comes after me will baptize with the Holy Spirit and with FIRE". Once more the Bible exploits a litterary device, the "Twice-Told-Tale". First exhibitted in Genesis, where man's creation is told, twice. Let's look back at Matt3:11-12, to see how many baptisms are there. The "SECOND TELLING of the twice-told-tale": "He will gather His wheat into the barn (those baptized/immersed into the Spirit), but he will burn the CHAFF with UNQUENCHABLE FIRE!"

    John baptized/immersed into WATER, for REPENTANCE
    Jesus baptized/immersed into the SPIRIT, for salvation
    Jesus WILL baptize/immerse into FIRE, for unrepentant sinners

    "Baptize" does not always mean "with water". In Romans 6:3-11, Gal3:27, Eph4:5, it is not talking about water. Jesus said, "You must be born again". All these passages are speaking of the immersion into Jesus, His death (our old sinful nature dies), AND His resurrection (we are a NEW CREATION, BORN-AGAIN).

    In John 3:3 is one more example of the TWICE-TOLD-TALE: "Truly I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." Lest we fall short of understanding, He says it TWICE! The SECOND telling of the "Twice-Told-Tale", He says: "That which is born of the flesh IS FLESH, that which is born of the Spirit IS SPIRIT."

    We-who-are-saved, are born of "water-flesh", AND "Spirit-spirit".

    Twice-told-tale, not a de-rail and "water-dipped-OR-damned".

    The Bible does NOT teach that water-baptism is essential to salvation, it teaches that only BELIEF is essential to salvation. And not just any KIND of belief, it is belief that: "Causes repentance (Lk13:3), causes one to DO the will of the Father (Mt7:21), causes one to be HUMBLE (Mt18:3-4), and most of all causes one to be BORN AGAIN! (Jn3:3)"

    "For by grace are you saved through faith, and that (grace) is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God" (Eph2:8)

    "If you confess Jesus as LORD (faith) and believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead (grace) you will be saved. For with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Rm10:9-10)

    No water. Water only accompanies those who ARE saved...
     
  11. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

    366
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    Colossians 2

    8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

    I'm confused here. Where does Colossians 2:8 talk about baptism?
     
  12. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    Ah, never mind, Richard. I see - I thought you were saying that Christ did it to fulfill righteousness. I missed the word us.
     
  13. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
    +0
    Scott, That one went over my had,

    besides I can't answer your question cause I am not Jesus.



    Mk16
    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned .



    Good verse, to consider, here






    God Bless
    Richard
     
  14. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
    +0
    LB,


    You almost sneecked this one by, I posted the last verse for your benefit;

    Mk16
    16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned .


    It contradicts your quote above,

    A person can be baptized and not believe, proof of this is in churches where they baptize infants who don;t even know whats going on..

    Therefore, these persons are condemned because they do not believe, inspite of his baptism.

    The person who believes and is Baptized with the Holy Spirit, understands this is an operation of God that the Spirit performs, its not the water baptism man performs.


    Col 2
    10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God , who hath raised him from the dead.




    Water baptism does not save, the Baptism of the Spirit of God does Save.



    RICHARD
     
  15. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    +7
    Catholic
    I don't think any church or person teaches that baptism alone is salvation.

    Usually it's tied up in faith to say that it's a part of your faith the same way that works are -- if you believe in Jesus, then you also believe that you should do what he said. And one of the things he said to do was be baptized.

    Now, I don't know about non-Catholics that believe baptism is necessary for salvation (are there any?), but Catholicism contains the concept of "baptism by desire". If you make the leap of faith and trust Jesus as your savior, then normally you will be baptized on the next Easter Vigil. But if you die before then, you are still saved because you had the desire to be baptized, but not the opportunity.

    -Chris
     
  16. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    Im sorry I have been away. I will just jump in here with a quick reply. If I missed a question on this thread please let me know and I will see if I can answer it.

    Baptism is symbolic of Jesus death burial and resurection and we are commanded by the scriptues to be baptized in order to get into christ death. We are to be baptized into water as this is the only substance that is taught in the bible.

    I will try and show you clearly what the following verses are teaching without making this very long.

    Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    Notice that when we are baptized that we are buried with Christ. Then notice that when we are raised up out of the water that we are being raised with christ through our faith in the operation of God.
    13 And you, being dead in your sins and the circumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
    When did we die? It was when we were under the water. This is when we died to sin and that our sins were forgiven. You see when we were baptized God quickened us together with Jesus. So you see your are not joined together with christ until you have been baptized.

    Here are few more verses that point out being dead with christ.
    Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
    Again when did you die with Christ it was at batism.
    Then the writter goes on to say.
    Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. 2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth. 3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
    Do you see what I am trying to point out here. Notice this conditional statement. IF you have been risen with Christ seek those things above. Again this points right back to you being raised up with christ from the watery grave of baptism.

    Im sorry but I must continue on.

    Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death ? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death : that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: 6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin . 7 For he that is dead is freed from sin. 8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him : 9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. 10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord .

    I belive these scriptures clearly show what I have been saying all along. You have to be bapiized in order to enter into christ death. No it is not the act of baptism by itself. First theres Grace, because if we did'nt have it we could never become saved. Then we have to have faith, repentence, and we have to confess Jesus as Lord. Then we have to obedience of faith and be baptized in water which puts us into Christ Death. Again, there isnt anything magical about the water, it is our faith in the operation of God thourgh baptism that puts us into Christ.

    Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
    Heres another verse that shows that baptism puts you into christ.

    I have tons more on baptism but I will stop here for now. I would still like you to answer my question when was Pauls sins washed away in Acts 22:16? You might also find Acts 2:38 and Mark 16:16 worth reading.

    I hope my reply wasnt to long. I have been trying real hard to condense my replies as much as possible. I look forward to your replies.

    Thanks, Cougan
     
  17. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

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    "I'm confused here. Where does Colossians 2:8 talk about baptism?"

    Exactly Scott, it doesn't. It doesn't say was present in him after baptism. Says present..always ;)
     
  18. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

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    Thank You, cougan,


    Excellent verses, carrying it out further;

    Rom 6
    12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
    13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God , as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
    14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace .
    15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
    16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
    17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
    18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
    19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
    20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
    21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.
    22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.


    And all by the FAITH of the operation of GOD.


    God not only promises He brings it to Pass.

    In our preverted way of thinking, man thinks, that God promises it, and can't bring it to pass, until we act.





    Yea, let ALL men be liars and Let God be TRUE.








    RICHARD
     
  19. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    Colossians 2

    8See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ.

    What in the world are you talking about? Here's Colossians 2:8 - it says NOTHING about always or anything!
     
  20. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member

    300
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    And then to summarize the point.

    Col 2
    17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



    So, when one, puts it all together; Water Baptism is a SHADOW of the real Baptism , which is performed by the Sprit of God.


    Allow me to give an example;



    Lev 17
    1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
    11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls : for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.


    Heb 8
    8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens ;
    2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man .
    3 For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.
    4 For if he were on earth, he should not be a priest, seeing that there are priests that offer gifts according to the law:
    5 Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things , as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern showed to thee in the mount.

    6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry , by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant , which was established upon better promises.

    13 In that he saith, A new coven ant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


    6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.
    7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
    8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
    9 Which was a figure for the time then present , in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;

    11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:


    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?


    The old blood sacrifices offered up in the old tabernacle were a shadow of things to come, in Leviticus God himself tells Moses that he will offer up a blood sacrifice as an atonemnt for the soul. These, all were a mere SHADOW

    Of what the word reveals, to us is what happened at the real ALTER, not made with human hands;

    Similarly, this is where the real baptism takes place, the literal washing away of our sins, as an ATONEMENT for our Souls by the blood of Jesus, this is the Real Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

    Titus 2
    14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and a peculiar people, zealous of good works.


    Titus 3
    5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

    Eph 5
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word ,





    All other forms of baptism are mere shadows of the real one.


    We baptise ourselves in obedience to Christ as a testimony of our inward cleaning, and desire to testify to the world, we belong to HIM.




    His word is Truth,


    Bless you all,
    RICHARD




    Blessings



    RICHARD
     
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