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Is baptism neccesary for salvation?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Martin Luther, May 5, 2002.

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  1. kern

    kern Miserere Nobis

    Of course, Catholic teaching also says that there are two additional types of baptism, Baptism by Desire (you have the desire but not the opportunity for whatever reason) and Baptism by Blood (martyr for the faith) which can apply if you die without a water baptism.

    It's really the same old semantic trap again. What would the "faith only" people say about someone who professes to believe in Jesus but refuses to get baptized? It's the whole "true faith" discussion with different words.

  2. Chili

    Chili Member

    Well of course John, the original sin was the formation of the tree of knowledge (to know the difference between good and evil) and the annihilation of this tree is what Catholic baptism has in mind (no good and evil = no sin).

    Like I wrote earlier, it is easy to "get saved" but to receive a fish or a scorpion is not ours to say and that is what Catholic Baptism is aiming for.

    Do you believe that some people get a scorpion or do we all get a fish because we want one.
  3. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    I have a few questions.

    How many baptism are there under the new covenant?
    Do you have to have you sins forgiven before you are saved?
    How do you get into the body of Christ which is the church?
    How do you die with Christ?
    How are you raised with Christ be quickend together with him?
  4. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    I agree with you that it is not for me to judge but to be on the safe side and as the Word of God has been putting it, I still standing frim on my belief that baptism is essential for everyone...

    God's Word is a command, not a toy to play around with.
    And the word baptism has been in the bible from the beginning of the NT, Jesus time and even after He ascended to Heaven.
  5. Chili

    Chili Member

    Good point and a save position to take.

    I will argue that Jesus and John were bosum buddies with John being born in the netherwold to prepare the way also in the netherworld for which reason he was beheaded and later to appear again at the foot of the cross (in the "there is you son" exchange).

    John is very difficult, born of old parents who lived in the hills etc. Very enigmatic, he was.
  6. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    How many baptism are there under the new covenant?
    There is two - baptism of water and of the spirit

    Do you have to have you sins forgiven before you are saved? God, Jesus died on the cross to take away your sins, therefore you are free from the bondage of sins. No worry. He paid in advance for us. You are a free man

    How do you get into the body of Christ which is the church?
    Proclaim and accept Christ Jesus as your personal Saviour and Lord and ask for the forgiveness of sin...

    Just pray a simple prayer like this:

    Lord Jesus, I need you, I am a sinner and I'm asking for your forgivenss, Lord. Jesus, I invite and I accept you into my life as my personal saviour and Lord. Thank you for dying on the cross for me. In the name of Jesus, I pray. Amen.

    Then I can embrace you as my new family in Christ

    How do you die with Christ?
    Baptism of water - where the old is gone and the new has come... which means that you leave your oldself when you are submerged under water and resurrected again when you immerged from the water - you are a new being in Christ.

    How are you raised with Christ be quickend together with him?
    We all are going to die someday and we will be judge but because we have Christ we will inherit eternal life instead of the second death which are eternal fire...

    jp-hope this help. God bless
  7. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    I think John and Jesus never met again after their mothers met one another since the bible stated that John lived in the desert and Jesus in the town.

    Futhermore, when JOhn was in prison, he asked his disciples to ask confirmation from Jesus "Are you the one who God has promised????"

    If he and Jesus is best bud, I think he won't ask those questions...

    Hmmnn.... what is the connection with the baptism?

  8. Chili

    Chili Member

    Should I?

    2, one water and on fire.

    no you don't, come as you are.

    The body of Christ is outside the Church (no temple in the new Jerusalem) unless you are speaking of the Church Victorious.

    You don't die with Christ. You die like Jesus and rise with Christ.

    You just become another Christ and go directly to the father (need white garments first, Rev.3:18).
  9. cougan

    cougan Senior Member


    I must be misunderstanding this verse then.
    Ephesians 4:4  There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5  One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    I must still be confused you state above that Jesus died for my sins already and I have nothing to worry about. Then you tell me that I need to say a prayer ask for forgiveness of sins. :scratch: So are you saying even though I am a free man from sin that I have to ask for forgiveness of something I no longer have? Perhaps you can explain to me when was Pauls sins removed acourding to this verse. Acts 22:16  And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    Would this verse not anwser the question how how we get into the body or the chruch.
    1 Corinthians 12:13  For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    So are you saying that you are not crucifed with christ until you are baptized? And are you also stateing that you do not become a new creature until you are baptized? If this is what you are saying I agree with you on this. See the following verses
    Romans 6:3  Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
    4  Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
    5  For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
    6  Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
    7  For he that is dead is freed from sin.
    8  Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
    Umm I was looking more for an answer like this.
    Colossians 2:10  And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
    11  In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
    12  Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
    13  ¶And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
  10. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    I must be misunderstanding this verse then.
    Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    Baptism through Christ - Mat 3:11
    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    It clearly stated that we are baptized by one spirit - Jesus himself. We are brought into the body through one spirit, and to be sure that we are in one body, we need this baptism of the spirit.

    Re 9:4
    They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads .

    Eph 1:13
    In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise

    The Holy spirit is the seal of God

    Good... you provided the answer for your first question
    1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
    Jesus is the baptizer and the spirit is the Holy Spirit

    I must still be confused you state above that Jesus died for my sins already and I have nothing to worry about. Then you tell me that I need to say a prayer ask for forgiveness of sins.

    One thing I forgot ..... for Jesus to be able to redeem your sins... you needed to accepted Him first... Just like... For You to accept a gift from a stranger, you must accepted him as a person who you think are trustworthy first.... Christ die for you and me and are offering this gifts to you but we need to accept Him before we can receive the gift.

    Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
    Good one, To be baptized by water and receive the Holy Spirit (be baptized), we need to accept the fact that we are sinner(wash away thy sins), we can't help by ourself alone.. and need God to help (calling on the name of the Lord).....

    So are you saying that you are not crucifed with christ until you are baptized? And are you also stateing that you do not become a new creature until you are baptized? If this is what you are saying I agree with you on this. See the following verses

    You can put it in that sense.. Since through baptism is when you said I want to follow your footsteps... carrying your own cross... he he :)
  11. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    Heres an article you might ejoy. Sorry its very long. WAS (IS) HOLY SPIRIT BAPTISM FOR ALL? (MATT. 3:11)

    No! But that does not prevent some from seeking that in which they have "neither part nor lot" (Acts 8:21). Preaching to an audience containing Pharisees and Sadducees, John (the immerser) said, "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 3:11). This is a "proof text" for those, even among brethren, who claim baptism in the Holy Spirit is for all of Christ's followers. Note carefully that neither this nor any other passage teaches that everyone is to be baptized in the Holy Spirit.

    Brethren "Baptized in the Holy Spirit" Work Deceitfully, Teach Error, and Fellowship Those in Error

    As far back as 1968, Richard Rogers, Sunset's "Sheikh of Deceit" (in doctrinal and other matters), penned, "The time honored (sic) position among the brethren has been that this promise (`Ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit') was made to, and for, only the twelve apostles. That this is not true can be shown conclusively from the scriptures."<19> According to Rogers, "The statement `Ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit,' is simply the promise of the outpouring of the Spirit by Jesus on the day of Pentecost one time for all, henceforth available for all men whom God calls (through the gospel, 2 Thess. 2:14)."<20> With specific reference to Matt. 3:11, Rogers alleged, "This passage makes it clear that Jesus would baptize more than twelve men with the Holy Spirit, unless we are to take a very singular view of it indeed."<21> Question: Where did this verse make "it clear that Jesus would baptize more than twelve men with the Holy Spirit"? Context certainly did not interfere with the "Rogers method" of isogetical hermeneutics. Matt. 3:11 gives absolutely no indication of how many would be baptized in the Holy Spirit. From Matt. 3:11 it could be two, twelve, twenty, or a zillion. Like others of his "Holy Spirit baptized" brethren, Rogers played fast and loose with God's Word.

    Brother Ben J. Franklin claimed he was baptized in the Holy Spirit in 1965. Relative to his study, Franklin declared:

    "I became aware that all basic Christian doctrines were given the Apostles with the intention of their being passed on to every succeeding generation (he is right to this point, T.J.H.), even the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (oops, now he has gone too far, T.J.H.), with the accompanying manifestations, including speaking with other tongues!"<22>

    Question: Where are the proofs that support this baseless assertion? Why did Franklin not take up deadly serpents (Acts 28:3), drink deadly poison (Mark 16:18), or raise the dead (Acts 20:9) to demonstrate the "accompanying manifestations" of which he spoke?

    One thing is certain, being "baptized in the Holy Spirit" did not help Franklin when he debated Guy N. Woods on the subject in 1974. Woods devastated every one of Franklin's arguments that "believers can receive Holy Ghost Baptism today."<23> In the same debate, Woods proved his proposition: "The Scriptures teach that Holy Ghost Baptism has ceased and is no longer in the church today."<24> He also exposed the dishonesty, the lack of true spirituality, and the departure from the faith Franklin manifested after his socalled "Holy Spirit baptism." In his second speech on the first night of the debate, Franklin surrendered the debate, saying, "My brother apparently wants to win this. Well, I'll concede his winning it right now. But I want to study the scripture. I'm looking for truth."<25> Phooey! If Franklin had been baptized in the Holy Spirit, as he claimed, he would not have to get whipped in a debate to learn the Truth. The Holy Spirit would have taught him all things (John 14:26) and guided him into all the Truth (John 16:13).

    A genuine "Holy Roller," named George Otis, assisted brethren Dean Dennis and Pat Boone in their "Baptism in the Holy Spirit." Otis was with Boone when he prayed, "Oh, precious Jesus, be my baptizer. Baptize me right now in Your Spirit, the Spirit of the living God."<26> Boone cited Matt. 3:11 as a Scriptural reference for seeking the Baptism in the Holy Spirit.<27> After an interview with Boone, for Mission Magazine in 1971, Dudley Lynch related, "Boone says his `baptism in the Holy Spirit' came in January 1969, at a time when he was burdened with personal difficulties."<28> And, what about Dean Dennis? Dennis wrote, "I thank God that since Jesus baptized me in the Holy Spirit, my life has been blessed, and my ministry has been changed from a dead formality to a living reality!"<29>

    Whatever spirit brethren Dennis and Boone were "baptized in," one thing is certain, it was not the Holy Spirit. Both left the Lord's church and began fellowshiping those in denominationalism. Many can sadly recall seeing Pat Boone on nationwide television programs with Oral Roberts and Rex Humbard. In the pictorial section of his book, A New Song, Boone included pictures of his appearances on those programs. Even while he was fellowshiping the "Holy Rollers" on television for all to see, Boone deceitfully misled his brethren about it. He had told Oral Roberts (and perhaps other "Holy Rollers") he had been "baptized in the Holy Spirit" and could sing in tongues. Yet at the same time, Boone tried to mislead his brethren and cause them to think otherwise. The late James D. Bales exposed the hypocrisy and duplicity into which Boone's "baptism in the Holy Spirit" led him.<30>

    Abilene Christian University's David Lewis, Carley Dodd, and Darryl Tippens advocate that "Generation X" (today's adolescents) be baptized in the Holy Spirit. They stated, "We suggest that church leaders and teachers provide ample instructions, advice, and counsel about the meaning of God's Spirit."<31> Championing a "Return to the Scriptures" (?) these tainted, truth-twisting Tartuffes testified (i.e., expressed their personal convictions), "Dr. Lynn Anderson reminds us of the critical importance of the Holy Spirit in the Bible."<32> Then they purveyed Anderson's false doctrine that men today are baptized in the Holy Spirit. Anderson expressly affirms, "Every person who becomes a Christian is overwhelmed and immersed in the Spirit."<33> Again, Lewis, Dodd, and Tippens, without disclaimers or qualifications, quoted Anderson, "`If you repent and are baptized you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.' He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."<34> (Note: All quotations Lewis, Dodd, and Tippens gave from Anderson were taken from a speech he presented in "Abilene Christian University's Youth and Family Conference, Feb. 1993."<35>) Anderson's deceitfulness has been known ever since his attempted cover-up after calling the church a "Big Sick Denomination" way back in 1973. Now calling himself a "Change Agent," Anderson is in print showing would-be heretics how to deceive whole congregations in order that "change" (i.e., heresy, Gal. 1:6-9; 2:4-5) might be brought in. Need anything be said relative to ACU's record of skullduggery?!

    Baptism in the Holy Spirit Not for Everybody

    About Matt. 3:11, Boles expressed, "John does not here state that every subject of the coming kingdom would be immersed in the Holy Spirit."<36> Commenting on Luke 3:16-17, a passage parallel to Matt. 3:11, Foy E. Wallace, Jr. said:

    "The announcement here made was that there would be the Holy Spirit baptism, but it assuredly did not mean that the promise of it was to all who were in John's audience -- hence the clause, `he shall baptize you,' you was not intended as a general promise but merely as something that would occur."<37>

    Wallace's statement about Luke 3:16-17 is equally applicable to Matt. 3:11.

    Gus Nichols went so far as to say, "There was no promise of the Holy Spirit to be poured out in the baptismal measure upon all mankind, nor on the multitude of the people, nor on the `hundred and twenty.'"<38> How could these men be so sure in their denials that Matt. 3:11 (and other passages) allowed for the baptism of all Christians in the Holy Spirit? McGarvey answered that question when he explained, "A prediction is best understood in the light of its fulfillment; and it is a fact that the apostles on Pentecost, and the household of Cornelius, are the only persons said in the New Testament to have received this baptism."<39> "The apostles on Pentecost," as McGarvey correctly stated, were the only apostles mentioned in the New Testament to have received Holy Spirit baptism. However, no doubt McGarvey would allow that Paul, an apostle "born out of due time" (1 Cor. 15:8), was baptized with the Holy Spirit because he was equal in every way with the other apostles (2 Cor. 11:5; 12:11).

    The Apostles and Holy Spirit Baptism

    Jesus knew the magnitude of the task He would set before His apostles. Without Divine assistance they could not accomplish what would be required of them. Speaking specifically to His apostles in John 14:16-17, He said:

    "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

    Eight verses later, He said:

    "These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." (John 14:25-26)

    Again, Christ told the apostles, "Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come," (John 16:13). Never did Jesus speak such words as these to anyone other than His apostles. Not knowing what was before them, the apostles may not have fully understood the power Holy Spirit would give them.

    While with the apostles in the days following His death, burial, and resurrection, Jesus told them, "I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high" (Luke 24:49). Later, in Acts 1:4-5, the Lord commanded the apostles that "... they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me. For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence." When they were baptized "with the Holy Ghost," the apostles would "receive power" (Acts 1:8). The promise of the Father was the "baptism with the Holy Spirit" John had mentioned in Matt. 3:11. Jesus was to be the Baptizer. He told the apostles they were the ones to receive this baptism. No one other than the apostles (including Paul) was baptized "with the Holy Spirit," with the exception of the household of Cornelius.
  12. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    The 120 Were Not Baptized with the Holy Spirit

    That the 120 disciples were not baptized in the Holy Spirit is easily shown. From Acts 1:1-14a only the apostles are considered. The 120 are not mentioned until Acts 1:15. No promise of Holy Spirit baptism was given to them; nothing was said about Holy Spirit baptism. Acts 1:26 says, "And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles." At this point, the apostles (including Matthias) become the antecedent for all following personal pronouns until someone else is named. Therefore each of the following pronouns have "the apostles" as their antecedents: "they" (Acts 2:1); "they" (Acts 2:2); "them" and "them" (Acts 2:3); "they" and "them" (Acts 2:4). Who were baptized with the Holy Spirit in Acts 2:1-4? Only the apostles were.

    Questioning what was happening, one of multitude asked, "Behold, are not all these which speak Galileans" (Acts 2:7)? The apostles were all Galileans (Acts 1:11), but certainly not all the 120 were Galileans. As questions persisted, Peter stood up with the 11 (not the 120) and preached (Acts 2:14-36). After the declaration that Jesus had been made both Lord and Christ, the people "... said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do" (Acts 2:37)? Neither the context nor the events that transpired on the day of Pentecost give anyone any reason to believe anything except that the apostles (and the apostles alone) received Holy Spirit baptism.

    The Household of Cornelius

    Wallace said:

    "A study of what the Holy Spirit was, the purpose of it and the power it imparted, will substantiate, I believe, my own conviction that the manifestation of the Holy Spirit at the house of Cornelius, as recorded in the tenth and eleventh chapters of Acts, was not Holy Spirit baptism."<40>

    With all due respect to brother Wallace and others who share his opinion, much of the argumentation presented to support this view is built on the silence of the Scriptures.

    This much can be known about what happened in the case of Cornelius: Peter declared:

    "And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell on them, as on us at the beginning. Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit. Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?" (Acts 11:15-17).

    It was Peter himself who identified what happened at Cornelius' house with Holy Spirit baptism.


    Four New Testament accounts record John's prediction that Jesus would baptize "with the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 3:11; Mark. 1:8; Luke 3:16; John 1:33). No mention is made of baptism "with fire" in Mark 1:8, John 1:33, or in any other Bible verses, except Matt. 3:11 and Luke 3:16. Those two references contain the same reading: "He shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit, and with fire." The phrase "with fire" has been explained in various ways. Some have considered the baptism "with fire" to represent trials, tribulations, and afflictions that act to "purify" all those who would be faithful Christians.<41> Rogers<42> and Wallace<43> concluded that the baptism "with fire" statement was directed at Israel in general and came to pass in particular when Jerusalem was burned in A.D. 70. A more widely held view, as exemplified in Boles,<44> Coffman,<45> Howard,<46> McGarvey,<47> Nichols,<48> and Woods,<49> is that the baptism "with fire" will be experienced only by the wicked in the eternal fires of Hell. Then there are those who teach that the baptism "with fire" is part of Holy Spirit baptism.

    Seekers of the Baptism of Fire

    Joseph Benson remarked, "Baptism with the Holy Ghost is not one thing and baptism with fire another, but the former is the reality of which the later is the symbol.<50> "Holy Rollers" have camped on that premise. Referring to the "formal doctrinal definition" in the Assemblies of God, Bruner quoted Winehouse saying, "All believers are entitled to and should ardently expect and earnestly seek the promise of the Father, the Baptism in the Holy Ghost and fire, according to the commandment of our Lord Jesus Christ."<51> One Pentecostal sect calls itself the "Fire Baptized Holiness Church."<52> Another wears the same name, but with a notable distinction -- "Fire Baptized Holiness Church (Wesleyan)."<53> Then, there is the "Pentecostal Fire-Baptized Holiness Church."<54> How tragic and misguided are the adherents of such doctrines! V.E. Howard penned, "I have heard honest people pray for the baptism of fire, but, my friends, you don't want the baptism of fire! It is yet future and will be punishment of the wicked in hell."<55> Pentecostals (and others) who want baptism "with fire" will get it -- unless they hear, believe, and obey the gospel before it is everlastingly too late.

    Was Baptism "with Fire" only on Pentecost?

    "The baptism `in fire' has been variously interpreted. Some think that it was fulfilled on the day of Pentecost when `tongues parting asunder, like as of fire ... sat upon each of them' (Acts 2:3) ..."<56> "A few eminent commentators refer the expression in fire to the cloven tongues which sat upon the apostles when they were baptized in the Holy Spirit."<57> In other words, some fancifully assume that when the "cloven tongues like as of fire ... sat upon each of them," the apostles were baptized "with fire," in fulfillment of Matt. 3:11. They argue that, in keeping with Eph. 4:5, Matt. 3:11 "ties" the "Holy Spirit" to "fire" in this baptism by the use of the coordinate conjunction "and." Thus, they conclude that John was describing "one baptism" in two elements (the Holy Spirit and fire together), not two baptisms (one baptism in the Holy Spirit and another baptism in fire). Their contention is that Acts 2:3-4 fulfills Matt. 3:11 because, in the one and same event, the "Holy Spirit" and the "fire," in unison, "clothed" the apostles on the day of Pentecost.

    The Coordinate Conjunction "and" in Matt. 3:11

    Some want to limit a coordinate conjunction's basic definition. Grammarians explain, "A coordinate conjunction connects two words, phrases, or two classes of equal rank."<58> However, the two words, phrases, or clauses of equal rank may be connected to demonstrate opposites or contrasts. For example, Paul said, "Behold the goodness and severity of God" (Rom. 11:22). The context of that statement clearly shows that "goodness" was applied to one class of people and that "severity" was applied to a different and separate class of people. If the conjunction "and" in Rom. 11:22 would not prevent God from saving some while condemning others, then the conjunction "and," in Matt. 3:11, would not prevent Christ from immersing the apostles with the Holy Spirit while condemning others to an immersion in fire.

    Another function of a coordinate conjunction is "to join expressions that are parallel in form."<59> Consider Isa. 7:16: "Before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings." The phrases "refuse the evil" and "choose the good" are parallel in form; however, the actions of refusing and choosing are opposites denoting a contrast. Interestingly, the phrases "with the Holy Spirit" and "with fire" are parallel in form (in English and in Greek). "With," in the former phrase, is translated from en, which is dative case. "With fire" in the latter phrase is translated from puri, which is also dative case. Since a coordinate conjunction could be utilized to convey contrasts in Isa. 7:16, it could be used to do the same in Matt. 3:11. Therefore, Jesus could baptize some (the apostles) with the Holy Spirit and others with fire. This is made clear by the context.

    Fire, Fire, Fire -- Matt. 3:11 in Context

    Woods noted, "It is quite clear, from the contexts of Matthew and Luke, that John referred to two classes of people some of whom were to be baptized `in fire.' ... The context also shows that the fire alluded to is the instrument of punishment of the wicked at the last day."<60> Undeniably, Judgment is signified by the word "fire" in Matt. 3:10 where the tree "which bringeth not forth good fruit is ... cast into the fire." Matt. 3:10 implies two categories of trees: those that bring forth good fruit and those that do not. Two categories, wheat and chaff, are separated from one another by Jesus in Matt. 3:12. The chaff, in an unquestionable reference to Judgment, is to be burned with "unquenchable fire."

    "Thus the word "fire" occurs three times in three verses in this immediate context. The first and third instances state positively the penal nature of the fire. It is absurd to assume that in the instance between them, he meant something entirely different ... Thus, the "fire" that burns the chaff (the disobedient), is the fire of punishment; and this is the "fire" which is referred to as a baptism in Matt. 3:11."<61>

    Tongues Not "of Fire" on Pentecost

    Acts 2:3 states, "And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire". This verse says neither that the tongues were "fire" nor that they were "of fire." It states that they were like as of fire. The New English Bible reads, "tongues like flames of fire" (Acts 2:3). "Tongues like flames" is the Berkeley Version rendering. (There is no fulfillment of the promised baptism "with fire" (Matt. 3:11) found in the tongues "like as of fire" (Acts. 2:3). Anyone should easily understand that there is a vast difference between being baptized "with fire" and being baptized with something "like as of fire." Nichols strongly declared:

    "Thus, we learn that the `fire' mentioned on Pentecost (Acts 2:3) was not real, literal, fire. Luke simply said the tongues were cloven or forked `like as of fire.' He did not say they were actually tongues of fire. So down goes the theory that the apostles would be, and were baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire on Pentecost! There isn't a word of truth in that idea; it is false doctrine!"<62>

    Furthermore, since Luke mentioned baptism "with fire" in Luke 3:16, it is strange he omitted any reference to it regarding the apostles' baptism with the Holy Spirit in Acts 1:4-5.

    No Baptism in Tongues of Fire

    If, when the apostles were "sat upon" by the tongues "like as of fire," that was baptism "with fire," then another "mode" of baptism must be noted. "Change Agents" will delightedly proclaim, "There are four modes of baptism: sprinkling, pouring, immersion, and sitting." McGarvey would not sit still for that. He declared, "Even if these tongues had been actual fire, their sitting on the heads of the apostles could not have constituted a baptism of the apostles in fire."<63> Why? Because no immersion (baptism) in the tongues happened. Tongues "like as of fire" ... sat upon each of them" (Acts 2:3). They were not immersed in the tongues, which appeared like as of fire.

    No! Acts 2:3-4 does not fulfill Matt. 3:11 when it comes to the baptism "with fire." Those who insist that the apostles were baptized "with fire" on the day of Pentecost rip Matt. 3:11 out of its context to make baptism "with the Holy Spirit, and with fire" apply to one category of men -- the apostles. They change something that was "like as of fire" into real, actual fire in Acts 2:3, and they invent a "new mode" of baptism to make "sat upon" in Acts 2:3 equal "baptism" in Matt. 3:11. When reasonably considered, not one single shred of sensible Scriptural justification can be found or given to conclude that the apostles were baptized "with fire" on the day of Pentecost.
  13. Julie


    The Bible tells us of several different baptisms. However, most confusion results when people fail to distinguish between "spirit" baptism and "water" baptism.

    The Bible clearly teaches "one" spiritual baptism which places believers in the "body of Christ," which brings about the supernatural transaction described in the Bible as the "new birth". (1 Cor. 12:13; Jn. 3:1-7; Gal. 3:27,28) Every born again child of God has experienced the "spirit " baptism.

    "Water baptism" is a picture of what took place when the believer placed his faith and trust in the sacrificial death, physical burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ (Rom. 6:3-5). Believers partake in "water baptism" as a public testimony to the fact that they have received God's gift of eternal life in Jesus Christ (Jn. 1:12; Rom. 6:23).
  14. Lion Heart

    Lion Heart Member


    1 Pet 1
    22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
    23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever .

    Were these 120 believers, partakers of the Holy Spirit.

    If they were, then they were Baptized by the Holy Spirit.
    Jhn 1
    33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

    Jesus, said "I will come to you" when speaking of the Comforter He was to send. (Jhn 14:18)

    It is not the outward Baptism that secures the position in Christ, its the inward Batism of the Holy Spirit.

    And we can assuredly state that without this Batism, no one can receive the Holy Spirit.

    GOOD Word,

  15. Julie


    Good post!

  16. gvsexpress

    gvsexpress New Member

    Holy Spirit not for today?

    Surely Cougan, you must not pay much attention to the verse that backs up the fifth step in the five step plan. Acts 2:38 says in the second part of the verse "And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

    Do you believe like some others in the COC that the holy spirit is only active through the word?
  17. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

    Whose idea is it that "we are saved by the grace of God and nothing else?" Why then did Jesus say, "he who believes AND is baptized will be saved..." (Mark 16:16). Jesus also said that anyone who does NOT believe him is CONDEMNED already (John 3:18). How can one be saved for DISREGARDING what Jesus says?

    Whose idea is it that "baptizing is the outward declaration that I am a Christian. It's declaring my allegiance to God." Is there a biblical support for this belief?

  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "Why then did Jesus say, "he who believes AND is baptized will be saved..." (Mark 16:16"

    *sigh* ed, you need to look at the footnote about this passage. Baseing docterine on this one verse is a bad thing. PLUS it says in John 3:18 that if you believe you are not condemned. It makes no mention of baptism at all ONLY BELIEF.

    "Is there a biblical support for this belief? "

    Yup. Why else would Christ get baptised? That's just to start.
  19. edpobre

    edpobre Well-Known Member

  20. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    "Now, why would Jesus give such COMMAND if BAPTISM is NOT relevant to salvation? "

    Umm..ed this is another example of you adding to scripture. We baptise because it identifies you with the church and shows physically the spiritual change that has already happened.

    "I want to see scripture to support your belief - NOT assumption NOR interpretation. "

    So why did Christ get baptised? Did he have sin that needed to be cleansed? As for mark 16:16 I'm not going to base docterine on THAT VERSE ALONE because its in question according to the older manuscripts. So I won't base docterine on a lone verse, especially in that passage. And it DOES say that if you aren't baptised you are condemned, only that if you don't believe.
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