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Is baptism neccesary for salvation?

Discussion in 'Salvation (Soteriology)' started by Martin Luther, May 5, 2002.

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  1. Martin Luther

    Martin Luther Member

    118
    +1
    Christian
    US-Democrat
    NO, Jesus saves, not water.

    and Jesus himself, never baptized.

    As for John, an Essene, he was simply publically doing what they did back at the monastary...symbolic purifciaton by water.
     
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  2. tyler4588

    tyler4588 Member

    107
    +2
    Christian
    Actually, Jesus was baptized. Read Luke 3:21-22.

    My beliefs on baptizm is this. In the Great Commission, (Matthew 28:16-20) We are commanded to be baptized. Now, am I saved if I am not baptized? YES OF COURSE! We are saved by the grace of God, and by nothing else. To say that we are not saved if we are not baptized, is saying that Jesus's death on the cross was not enough, I need to be baptized also.

    Baptizing is the outward declaration that I am a Christian. It's declaring my allegiance to God.
     
  3. christpunx

    christpunx New Member

    67
    +1
    Non-Denom
    I don't think he meant that Jesus wasn't baptized, but that Jesus never baptized anyone else.
     
  4. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    Let me give you an example. A man who has fallen into the river screams for help. A man on the bank runs with a rope and throws it to the man in the river. He catches hold and is pulled to safety. What saved him? Was it his scream? Was it the rope? Was it the man on the bank? Did he save himself? Or was it all of these working together?

    The answer is all of these things working together. Faith, repentance, confessing Christ, or baptism by themselves CAN NOT save you or make you a child of God. They are equally important but the final step if you will is baptism. If you want to take just parts of God’s word we can build a menu for you to pick and choose from like at your favorite buffet.

    The word saves you.
    James 1:21 Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls.
    Grace saves you
    Ephesians 2:4-5 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)
    Hope saves you.
    Romans 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
    Belief saves you.
    John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
    Belief and confession saves you.
    What is repentance? Change of mind that results in a change of life. Who should repent? (All) Acts 17 30“Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent. Why should you repent? (If you don’t you will perish.) Luke 13 3“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish. 4“Or those eighteen on whom the tower in Siloam fell and killed them, do you think that they were worse sinners than all other men who dwelt in Jerusalem? 5“I tell you, no; but unless you repent you will all likewise perish.”
    Romans 10:9-10 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Baptism saves you.
    1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ

    You see it is all of these combined that save you. If you will notice the theme through out the bible is Faith, obedience, and action in this order.

    Question, when was Paul’s sins forgiven?
    Answer: Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    His sins were not removed until they were washed away in baptism. This is when he came in contact with the blood of Jesus. Rev 1:5

    When you are baptized not only are you sins forgiven you are added to the body of Christ which is the church (we are not baptized into a name of a church nor is baptism a means of becoming a member of a name of a church.) Col. 1:18, 24 Eph.1:22-23 1Cort. 12:13 Acts 2:41. So you can also say that when you are baptized you are put into Christ. Rom. 6:3(All of Rom.6 is a good read on what the purpose of baptism is for) Gal 3:27 and Mat. 28:19

    Baptism is not a work of man.
    Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

    You see in this verse your faith working through your obedience by the means of baptism. Note its not the person helping you down into the water but it is your faith in the operation of God knowing that when you are raised up out of that water that your sins were forgiven and that you have put on Christ by being united with him in death and have been raised a new creature living your life for Christ.

    I challenge anyone and everyone to produce 1 verse that says that faith by itself puts you into Jesus death.
     
  5. Josephus

    Josephus <b>Co-Founder Christian Forums</b> Supporter

    +230
    Messianic
    since this is a Christian theological issue best debated by Christians only, I am moving this to Interfaith Discussion.
     
  6. Thunderz7

    Thunderz7 New Member

    53
    +0
    Christian
    The Great Commission, Mt.28-we are told to make disciples of nations, baptizing them. You cannot duck a nation in water! Columbus, on his voyages, baptized the lands he came across in the name of Queen Isabella and King Ferdinand of Spain. We are to go under the flag of YHWH-Nissi, baptizing with the WORD.

    HO-KA HEY
     
  7. Anise

    Anise New Member

    53
    +0
    "Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John" and yet in the next breath, it tells us that Jesus himself didn't baptize, it was his disciples. See John 4:1,2 and also 3:22, 26.

    Why is Jesus clearly said to be baptizing, and then it turns around and says the disciples were doing it? Maybe it is a way to say that the baptizing was being done with his auspices or authority, although he didn't do the physical work. Or, I don't know, maybe that it describes Jesus as making AND baptizing disciples means that it was the power of Jesus that really made them, but the disciples did the physical water dunking.

    Any thoughts why it says it one way and then says it another?
     
  8. MissytheButterfly

    MissytheButterfly Back and Better than EVER!

    +5
    I think Baptism goes along with salvation. It's an outward sign of our belief in God. I know that the act of baptism doesn't make us saved, our belief in God does..but I don't think anything is wrong with being baptised.

    Godly repentance and water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sins is needed according to(Acts 2:38) "Then Peter said them, Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (KJV bible).
     
  9. Ju

    Ju Well-Known Member

    +30
    Pentecostal
    Married
    Wait a second...

    Does that mena, because I am not baptized yet, that my sins are not forgiven yet either??
    no, I don't believe that. I think, that I am still saved. Jesus wants me to get baptized, IF i believe in him (and that is what's going to happen next September), but if I died tomorrow- I'd still have Jesus on my side and I'd still go to heaven.
    If we believe, then we should get baptized. Jesus wanted us to. But it's not necessary for our salvation..

    Or would I go to hell, if I died tomorrow??

    That wonders Julia
     
  10. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "We are commanded to be baptized. "

    Not so sure about that. Maybe he is talking about the baptism of the spirit. It says make disciples also, but most people don't do that at all ;) Question..if baptism is nessisary for salvation, was jesus not saved until he was baptised? What about Paul, no where does it mention him getting baptised does it? Christ didn't say to the disciples, get baptised then follow me did he?
     
  11. No gods

    No gods Buttercup Atheist

    681
    +1
    Atheist
    3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
    3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
    3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Born of water? Doesn't that mean baptized?
     
  12. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Born of water? Doesn't that mean baptized?"

    Nope, born of water in that passage might mean born physically ;) Its John chapter 3 for those of you reading along.

    This is why he says flesh gives birth to flesh.
     
  13. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    257
    +0
    THe WORD of GOD never lie.... SO here is the verse that Stated BY JESUS OWN MOUTH, WE NEED BAPTISM.

    Mat 3:11 (John's Word)
    I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance , but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

    JOhn 3:5 (Jesus's Word)
    Jesus answered, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

    make sure you are baptized.... Jesus Himself being baptized by John. He is our example.

    jp - Jesus is the way and the truth
     
  14. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "make sure you are baptized.... Jesus Himself being baptized by John. He is our example. "

    So according to you Christ wasn't saved until he was baptised? Jesus was baptised but like us, it effects our salvation not at all.
    :)
     
  15. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

    766
    +6
    Christian
    This verse answers the question why was Jesus baptized?
    Matthew 3:15  And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him.


    I would like to offer another verse that shows that water is what is used for baptism.

    ACTS 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
    36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
    37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
    38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.

    Now watch this. The church is Christ body Eph 1:22-23 and baptism put you into the body 1Cort 12:13 and Jesus is the saviour of the body Eph 5:23. So would'nt it seem logical to you that you must be in the body of christ in order to be saved and the way you get into the body is through baptism? Again my challenge has not been meet. Show me just 1 verse that says that faith by itself puts you into christ body or his death. Baptism represent the death, burial and resurection of Jesus.

    Romans 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:

    This only occurs at baptism. Please take the time to read all of Rom 6. I don't see how anyone who reads this chapter and studies it can deny that baptism in water (not Holy Spirt Baptism)is required for you to enter into the body or the church whis is Jesus.

    How can you deny Act 22:16And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

    Paul had faith and he belived in Christ and was praying for 3 days but yet his sins would not be removed until he was baptized. The water is not magic but it is the means that you come in contact with the cleansing power of Jesus blood Rev1:5 thourgh you faith in the working operation of God Col 2:12.
     
  16. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "This only occurs at baptism. Please take the time to read all of Rom 6. I don't see how anyone who reads this chapter and studies it can deny that baptism in water (not Holy Spirt Baptism)is required for you to enter into the body or the church whis is Jesus. "

    I've read it, studied the book intensly for about 8 to 10 weeks and I'll say I don't think you need baptism to be saved.

    Why? Because I read the WHOLE book, not just chapter 6 ;)

    Why do I say this..because Paul wrote the whole thing beginning to end, not just chapters. You forget the frame this in terms of his short talk on abraham. Check verse 11 in chapter 3 for more details :) and also check verse 16..no mention of anything other then faith...Again at the beginning of chapter 5 is tells us through FAITH we have been justified to the law (ie absolved of sin). If it was such a big part of saving faith, don't you think it would be mentioned in his letter long before the introduction to the being saved from sin section of his letter?
     
  17. JOhnPreparer

    JOhnPreparer Member

    257
    +0
    Baptism is essential in a Christian Work since God ordinane it in His Greatest Commission - Mat 28:18-20

    "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to you, therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. And surely I will be with you till the end of time."

    Baptizing is a command from God and if you say that it is not necessary when that is your pick, For me, it is crucial in our salvation.

    Born of water and spirit.

    Your sins die when you submerged into water and come out again as a new born in Christ.

    Flesh give birth to flesh.... but spirit give birth to spirit. God is spirit.
     
  18. LouisBooth

    LouisBooth Well-Known Member

    +59
    Christian
    Married
    US-Libertarian
    "Your sins die when you submerged into water and come out again as a new born in Christ.
    "

    So why no record of the disciples being baptised? Hmm? If it is that important it would have been shown....Baptism has no part in salvation its Grace through faith you are saved.
     
  19. OldBadfish

    OldBadfish Well-Known Member

    +20
    I think it is more of a ritual, expressing your submission and a showing of physical expression of acknowledgement of being born again.

    I can't say for sure if it is necessary for salvation though, but what would it hurt to be baptized?
     
  20. Mandy

    Mandy Well-Known Member

    +7
    I have come across something that I found to be key as to whether or not baptism is essential for salvation.



    1Cor 1:14 I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
    1Cor 1:15 Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.

    1Cor 1:16 And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.

    1Cor 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect


    If baptism was essential for salvation why did Paul seperate the gospel and baptism?
    Because the gospel is for the unsaved and baptism is for the saved.
    The gospel is that Jesus died for our sins and was raised from the dead and through His death and shed blood we are redeemed, not through anything we do.
     
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