Is anything required on our part, anything at all...? Or not...?

Neogaia777

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Since when does Scripture deny a "works based salvation?" Did Jesus forget that when he sternly judges the 7 churches in Revelation according to their works, or lack thereof? Was James wrong to write in Js 2:24 that we are JUSTIFIED by WORKS and not by faith alone? Works of themselves do not secure our salvation but are the evidence of it. James wrote that faith without works is dead. Do you think you as a believer can be chronically disobedient and still be saved? Yes or No?
Self or completely self willed works... for/and/or because those who are truly of the true faith, it will be evidenced by their work or works, but it will not be because of them, but God in them and through them, ect...

But, we are not to judge one another by our works, for oh so very many reasons...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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we're required to love God by following His commandments and if you truly belong to Him, that won't be burdensome.

john 14:15
1 john 5:2-3
And you'll wait on God's timing (to fulfill and/or complete them) and not your own...

God Bless!
 
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Neogaia777

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Self or completely self willed works... for/and/or because those who are truly of the true faith, it will be evidenced by their work or works, but it will not be because of them, but God in them and through them, ect...

But, we are not to judge one another by our works, for oh so very many reasons...

God Bless!
It has to be God's will in and through you or it means nothing... Filthy rags...

God Bless!
 
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anna ~ grace

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Does it (salvation, obedience or whatever) (whether or not we are saved) Does it either does, or does not, require "some kind of action and/or response" on our part doesn't it...? Or not...?

Or should we not worry and/or consider either that, or "anything at all" that we might do, or have to do and/or decide on our part...

Comes back to how much is supposed to God, and how much is supposed to be us...?

Does it truly require "nothing" (at all whatsoever from us or on our part) IOW's...?

Not that that would "save you" though maybe...? Or does it...? Or did God already dictate and choose those who would be saved (long ago) to the point where it would be absolutely "none of us" at all, but "all of Him" instead...?

Cause what would be the point, or is one even supposed to "try" for, well, "anything at all"...? Why do anything at all...?I mean, if God has already done and has "it" and "absolutely all of it", then what is the point and/or purpose of putting forth "any kind of effort" or exerting ourselves "at all" or for, or for "anything on our part"...?

God Bless!
I would say, yes. Our entire lives in Christ are meant to be walking towards and working out our salvation. It is a process, not a one time event. Grace is awesome, and is meant to fuel our walk with Him.
 
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aiki

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Since when does Scripture deny a "works based salvation?"

Once again: Ephesians 2:8-9, 2 Timothy 1:9, Titus 3:5.

Works of themselves do not secure our salvation but are the evidence of it.

Yes. But you've gone beyond this truth, or stretched it, to make works salvific. They simply aren't, as Scripture clearly indicates.

James wrote that faith without works is dead. Do you think you as a believer can be chronically disobedient and still be saved? Yes or No?

Precisely define "chronically disobedient." How do you justify your definition? On what authority does it rest? Where's the line, exactly, between "chronically disobedient" and just about "chronically disobedient"?

I would argue that a person who lives easily and persistently in sin has yet to be saved rather than that they've lost their salvation.
 
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aiki

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Was James wrong to write in Js 2:24 that we are JUSTIFIED by WORKS and not by faith alone?

James 2:21-24
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


The term "perfected" (Gk. teleioo) could also be rendered "completed" or "accomplished." Works, then, "complete" or "accomplish" faith. James illustrated how this was so using Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac as an example. The act of sacrificing Isaac, James explained, "perfected" or "completed" Abraham's faith; Abraham manifested or revealed the genuineness of his faith in God by his willingness to sacrifice Isaac. In doing so, Abraham's faith was "completed," or given full, concrete expression. "I believe God" was not just an empty claim Abraham made but a life-shaping fact. James emphasized this inevitable and direct faith-works link by stating that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." In light, though, of Paul's repeated and explicit denial of works having any salvific power, James' claim cannot be understood to mean that one is saved by one's works. Such a reading would put the two men directly at odds with each other. James, I believe, did not mean to indicate that by works one may be saved, but only that genuine saving faith always results in corresponding works and insofar as this is true, works could be said to have a justifying power.

If you deny this and insist that works contribute to one's salvation in contradiction to Paul's explicit statements to the opposite, then you must show how it is possible to reasonably hold both positions at once.
 
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Oldmantook

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Why do you cite Eph 2:8-9 but fail to include v.10? God expects us to do good works which he created us to do.
In 2 Tim 1:9. you fail to distinguish between works of the law, works done in our own flesh/righteousness, all of which account for nothing. On the other hand, no where in all of Scripture is works done by the believer in obedience to God/Word and the leading of the Holy Spirit ever condemned.
Show me just one place where such is the case?
Tit 3:5 you have taken out of context. Don't you notice the previous verse which verse 5 refers to? V.5 refers to our own works righteousness done BEFORE we were saved. Not as a result of being saved. After all does not 1 Jn 3:7 say that anyone who practices righteousness is righteous?

Yes. But you've gone beyond this truth, or stretched it, to make works salvific. They simply aren't, as Scripture clearly indicates.
You have neglected to address Jame 2:24. Care to explain?

Precisely define "chronically disobedient." How do you justify your definition? On what authority does it rest? Where's the line, exactly, between "chronically disobedient" and just about "chronically disobedient"?
I suggest you carefully read 1 John 1 and tell me what you think.

I would argue that a person who lives easily and persistently in sin has yet to be saved rather than that they've lost their salvation.
Then tell me precisely why we are instructed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling? Then why does Paul in Rom 8:13 warn the brethren in Rome that if they live according to the flesh, they will die? Why does James warn that the soul a sinning brother can face death in Js 5:19-20?
Your belief is inconsistent with Scripture.
 
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Oldmantook

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James 2:21-24
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?
22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;
23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness," and he was called the friend of God.
24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


The term "perfected" (Gk. teleioo) could also be rendered "completed" or "accomplished." Works, then, "complete" or "accomplish" faith. James illustrated how this was so using Abraham's near-sacrifice of Isaac as an example. The act of sacrificing Isaac, James explained, "perfected" or "completed" Abraham's faith; Abraham manifested or revealed the genuineness of his faith in God by his willingness to sacrifice Isaac. In doing so, Abraham's faith was "completed," or given full, concrete expression. "I believe God" was not just an empty claim Abraham made but a life-shaping fact. James emphasized this inevitable and direct faith-works link by stating that "a man is justified by works and not by faith alone." In light, though, of Paul's repeated and explicit denial of works having any salvific power, James' claim cannot be understood to mean that one is saved by one's works. Such a reading would put the two men directly at odds with each other. James, I believe, did not mean to indicate that by works one may be saved, but only that genuine saving faith always results in corresponding works and insofar as this is true, works could be said to have a justifying power.

If you deny this and insist that works contribute to one's salvation in contradiction to Paul's explicit statements to the opposite, then you must show how it is possible to reasonably hold both positions at once.
Works are the outward evidence of inward faith. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin. That is why James wrote that faith, if not accompanied by works is dead. I pointed out to you earlier that you appear to be against all kinds of works- even those done in obedience to God/Word/Spirit. Works done by the believer out of obedience to God are never condemned but instead commended. Was Jesus mistaken to judge the 7 churches in Revelation by their works or lack thereof? You have thrown the baby out with the bath water.
 
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aiki

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Why do you cite Eph 2:8-9 but fail to include v.10? God expects us to do good works which he created us to do.

Yes, He does. And so? This does not mean works save anyone, only that they follow naturally and inevitably from salvation.

In 2 Tim 1:9. you fail to distinguish between works of the law, works done in our own flesh/righteousness, all of which account for nothing. On the other hand, no where in all of Scripture is works done by the believer in obedience to God/Word and the leading of the Holy Spirit ever condemned.

Paul doesn't condemn works in his comments to Timothy. He says only that both he and Timothy had been called with a holy calling, NOT according to their works, but according to God's will and grace. It does not deny the inevitability or importance of good works in a believer's life to deny that they possess salvific power.

Tit 3:5 you have taken out of context. Don't you notice the previous verse which verse 5 refers to? V.5 refers to our own works righteousness done BEFORE we were saved. Not as a result of being saved. After all does not 1 Jn 3:7 say that anyone who practices righteousness is righteous?

??? No, I have not taken Titus 3:5 out of context. Certainly, nothing you've written above shows that I have. What difference does the distinction you make here have to the matter of whether or not works save anyone? Paul very simply and clearly indicates that it is not by works of righteousness that a person is saved but ONLY by the mercy of God and the washing and regenerating work of the Spirit.

Then tell me precisely why we are instructed to work out our salvation with fear and trembling?

As Paul clarifies in the very next verse (Philippians 2:13), we work out only what God has first worked in. It is because God has already, through our salvation, worked in us the ability and desire to do His will that we manifest, or work out, our salvation in our daily living.

Then why does Paul in Rom 8:13 warn the brethren in Rome that if they live according to the flesh, they will die? Why does James warn that the soul a sinning brother can face death in Js 5:19-20?
Your belief is inconsistent with Scripture.

This is all a deflection from my explanation of James 2:24. Instead of dealing with what I've written about it, you fire a scatter-shot of other verses that you have misread in the same way you have James 2:24.

In Romans 8:13, Paul was drawing a conclusion from a contrast he had set up in earlier verses between a "fleshly-minded" person and a "spiritually-minded" one. In describing the contrast between the two, Paul made it clear that a fleshly-minded person was not saved. (verses 7-9) When he writes, then, to the Roman believers what he does in verse 13, Paul is saying, essentially, that a person who lives according to the flesh is not a saved person, but a lost, fleshly-minded one.

James does not actually refer to a sinning brother in James 5:19-20. He says only "one among you." In my church there are a fair number of unsaved sinners among us. They have heard the truth of Scripture many times but live lives that stray far from it. James says that when we turn one of these sinners (not brothers or sisters) from the "error of his (or her) ways" we "save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." I don't see, though, anything about works saving a person, or anything about a believer losing their salvation because of sinful deeds.
 
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aiki

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Works are the outward evidence of inward faith. Faith and works are two sides of the same coin.

I agree. But those two sides are not identical. We can distinguish one side from the other, which is why we say there are two sides. And where faith and works are distinguished from one another is in their salvific power. Faith saves, works do not.

I pointed out to you earlier that you appear to be against all kinds of works- even those done in obedience to God/Word/Spirit.

Not at all. I've certainly never written any such thing. l only hold that works are not necessary to salvation, though they are an inevitable manifestation of it.

Works done by the believer out of obedience to God are never condemned but instead commended.

Yes, but this doesn't make them necessary to salvation.

Was Jesus mistaken to judge the 7 churches in Revelation by their works or lack thereof? You have thrown the baby out with the bath water.

No, you have simply drawn a conclusion about my view not warranted by my words. I think you want me to be one who has thrown the baby out with the bathwater, but I'm not.
 
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Oldmantook

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Yes, He does. And so? This does not mean works save anyone, only that they follow naturally and inevitably from salvation.



Paul doesn't condemn works in his comments to Timothy. He says only that both he and Timothy had been called with a holy calling, NOT according to their works, but according to God's will and grace. It does not deny the inevitability or importance of good works in a believer's life to deny that they possess salvific power.



??? No, I have not taken Titus 3:5 out of context. Certainly, nothing you've written above shows that I have. What difference does the distinction you make here have to the matter of whether or not works save anyone? Paul very simply and clearly indicates that it is not by works of righteousness that a person is saved but ONLY by the mercy of God and the washing and regenerating work of the Spirit.



As Paul clarifies in the very next verse (Philippians 2:13), we work out only what God has first worked in. It is because God has already, through our salvation, worked in us the ability and desire to do His will that we manifest, or work out, our salvation in our daily living.



This is all a deflection from my explanation of James 2:24. Instead of dealing with what I've written about it, you fire a scatter-shot of other verses that you have misread in the same way you have James 2:24.

In Romans 8:13, Paul was drawing a conclusion from a contrast he had set up in earlier verses between a "fleshly-minded" person and a "spiritually-minded" one. In describing the contrast between the two, Paul made it clear that a fleshly-minded person was not saved. (verses 7-9) When he writes, then, to the Roman believers what he does in verse 13, Paul is saying, essentially, that a person who lives according to the flesh is not a saved person, but a lost, fleshly-minded one.

James does not actually refer to a sinning brother in James 5:19-20. He says only "one among you." In my church there are a fair number of unsaved sinners among us. They have heard the truth of Scripture many times but live lives that stray far from it. James says that when we turn one of these sinners (not brothers or sisters) from the "error of his (or her) ways" we "save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." I don't see, though, anything about works saving a person, or anything about a believer losing their salvation because of sinful deeds.
At this point it's quite obvious that you've made up your mind and will believe what you have always believed no matter what I write. Therefore, no sense in me devoting more time to discussion since it's apparent that we agree to disagree.
 
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Oldmantook

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I agree. But those two sides are not identical. We can distinguish one side from the other, which is we say there are two sides. And where faith and works are distinguished from one another is in their salvific power. Faith saves, works do not.



Not at all. I've certainly never written any such thing. l only hold that works are not necessary to salvation, though they are an inevitable manifestation of it.



Yes, but this doesn't make them necessary to salvation.



No, you have simply drawn a conclusion about my view not warranted by my words. I think you want me to be one who has thrown the baby out with the bathwater, but I'm not.
I think we can agree that works are not the cause of our salvation but works are the result of our salvation. However, the germane question is upon salvation do all Christians yield/produce good works? I say no, but I assume you say yes.
 
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