Is anyone in Heaven?

[jamesonofthunder]

But again, the law requires your death. Christ isn't the sinner.

If you murder someone and I go before the judge and say, "I'll die in James' place" the judge will die laughing. Why?

Because no law will allow the innocent to take the condemnation of the guilty.

No Jesus is not the sinner he is the lamb offered for the sacrifice of the sinner. In the ceremonial law sin could be forgiven through atonement offering. The key is in Atonement. The just, Jesus, taking the penalty upon Himself.

He walked with Adam in the Garden. When Adam sinned jesus shared with him the plan of salvation and Adam offered sacrifice that pointed to Jesus.

Would you agree Jesus is God? The creator as written in 1st John? He is righteous and never sinned as a man. John said "behold the lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world".

Jesus was the one who gave the law to Moses, He shared His Father character with the world in the form of ten commandments. The law was broken and He made a way to be saved by taking the punishment upon Himself. This is substitutionary atonement. The one who was offended taking the sins of the offender upon Himself. There could ne no other way except for the death of the sinner. Jesus showed us His mercy by taking the sins upon Himself.

When the angel of death passed over the believers in Egypt they were spared death by having the blood on their door posts.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

I know in this day age this would not be suitable, but if they were looking for the murderer and you gave yourself up for that person, it would be the same thing.

You could claim it was you so the offender would go free

this is obviously a flawed comprehension of the matter because men are sinful from birth. But the fact that the creator came to offer himself for us is way beyond what we can comprehend in our finite minds.

Obviously it had the right effect or there would no Holy Spirit with us right now.

I am changed by the effect. I am not the man I used to be because of the influence of the Savior.

 

[Setyoufree]

In the ceremonial law sin could be forgiven through atonement offering.

No, sin was forgiven by a promise of the future gospel.

Hebrew 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

The law was broken and He made a way to be saved by taking the punishment upon Himself. This is substitutionary atonement.

Yes, and that's a false gospel. The law can never condemn the innocent...If it did it would be a lie. Jesus was innocent.

 

[Setyoufree]

.... But the fact that the creator came to offer himself for us is way beyond what we can comprehend in our finite minds....

Actually, if we are to preach the gospel, we must know the gospel.

Clearly, according to God's own law, guilt can't be transferred from the guilty one to the innocent one:

Ez 18:20 The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

 

[Jig]

Is anyone in heaven?

Enoch and Elijah.

 

[Jig]

When the angel of death passed over the believers in Egypt they were spared death by having the blood on their door posts.

What happen to all of them in the Sinai wilderness?
Why do Christians still physically die?

 

[jamesonofthunder]

No, sin was forgiven by a promise of the future gospel.

Hebrew 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.

Yes, and that's a false gospel. The law can never condemn the innocent...If it did it would be a lie. Jesus was innocent.

My point was that Jesus was the fulfillment of everything the ceremonial law pointed to. You are correct the blood of bulls and goats could do nothing, but the blood of Jesus fulfilled everything it pointed to.

He was the Atonement. Why else would God give the ceremonial law? Why was Jesus called the lamb of God? Because His blood on the doorpost of our hearts cleases us from all unrighteousness.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

What happen to all of them in the Sinai wilderness?
Why do Christians still physically die?

The ones who had true faith and did not question the will of the Father (Caleb and Josua) made it to the promissed land.

Everyone who questioned God or misrepresented Him, including Moses who struck the rock twice, died in the wilderness.

The second question, The fulfillment of prophecy has not fully come. All of the prophetic words must be fulfilled first. Then the end will fully come. But there are people living in this day who will be alive when Jesus comes the second time and they will be translated without seeing death.

We must go through the time of trouble first. Like Meshac shadrac and Abednigo we will have to go through the fire first. This includes the mark of the beast, an enforced false day of worship.

 

[Jig]

The ones who had true faith and did not question the will of the Father (Caleb and Josua) made it to the promissed land.

And then they died in the promised land.

 

[tall73]

Jesus said that those who believe in him will never taste of death.

Joh 11:23 Jesus said to her, "Your brother will rise again."
Joh 11:24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."
Joh 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live,
Joh 11:26 and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
Joh 11:27 She said to him, "Yes, Lord; I believe that you are the Christ, the Son of God, who is coming into the world."


Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live.

everyone who lives and believes shall never die.

These seem contradictory at first. If everyone who believes in him shall never die, then why say whoever believes in me, though he die, shall live?


A possible solution is that He is speaking of the last day resurrection already referenced, by Martha.

Those who believed and are dead, will live again on that day.
Those who live and believe on that day will never die.


At the coming of Jesus the dead in Christ are raised and the righteous living need never die.

And Jesus is the basis of that resurrection. Lazarus is about to illustrate it. He believed in Jesus, and yet he did die. But he is about to live. Just as those will who believed and died when Jesus comes.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

Martha answered, “I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
Still seeking to give a true direction to her faith, Jesus declared, “I am the resurrection, and the life.” In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived. “He that hath the Son hath life.” 1 John 5:12. The divinity of Christ is the believer’s assurance of eternal life. “He that believeth in Me,” said Jesus, “though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in Me shall never die. Believest thou this?” Christ here looks forward to the time of His second coming. Then the righteous dead shall be raised incorruptible, and the living righteous shall be translated to heaven without seeing death. The miracle which Christ was about to perform, in raising Lazarus from the dead, would represent the resurrection of all the righteous dead. By His word and His works He declared Himself the Author of the resurrection. He who Himself was soon to die upon the cross stood with the keys of death, a conqueror of the grave, and asserted His right and power to give eternal life.

To the Saviour’s words, “Believest thou?” Martha responded, “Yea, Lord: I believe that Thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.” She did not comprehend in all their significance the words spoken by Christ, but she confessed her faith in His divinity, and her confidence that He was able to perform whatever it pleased Him to do.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

Back to the topic of the thread.

The first to go to heaven was Enoch the seveth from Adam. The second was Elijah, and neither one of these died to go there, they were taken alive.

Next came Moses, who was resurrected like Jesus, probably 3 days after his death and burial by angels, and when he was resurrected the devil fought Jesus over his body as mention in the book Jude.

Then when Jesus was resurrected there was a mini resurrection, here is the proof. Matthew 27: 52 "And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose." The resurrection of Jesus happened when the Hebrew holiday First fruits took place so it took place in fulfillment of Prophecy. Everything in the life of Jesus was fulfilled in the fullness of time, when it was prophesied.

This does not say all of the saints but many. We know David was not one of them because on the day of Pentecost Peter said "David is still in the grave" which was right down the road from where he stood that day and they could tell he had not been resurrected yet because he was not walking around Jerusalem with Jesus after his resurrection and his grave was still closed.


These are the only people mentioned in scrpture who have EVER been resurrected or translated to go to heaven.


Everyone else is still waiting in the dust for the voice of Jesus to put them back together again.

 

[Jig]

Furthermore, I'm an Orthodox Christian. We don't quite think there's a distance between Hades and Paradise. We actually don't think there's distance at all, and no concept of "place". Both of these are canceled by absence of time. When you've said: "descended to the spirits in prison", to me, thus, that ment "stepped out of time again", amongst other things. Once the thief on the right cross died - there was no today, or tommorow, for him. There was only "all now always now". Said thief was instantly with Christ, for him it doesn't mather that for us Christ was absent for three days. I don't know how to explain it differently.

Yet, the primary passage that is being used here to define the environment of Hades and Paradise (Luke 16:19-31), has some the occupants engaged in conscious activities that could only happen within a period of 'time' (and in a state if mental awareness). For instance, talking is occurring. This is a sequential event happening over a specific duration.

 

[Elder 111]

Is not going to hell the true death?

The word to Adam was that if he sinned he would die not go to hell. Did he not die?

 

[Elder 111]

You do realize that Jesus is God right. As God the Son He never truly left heaven.

That is absolutely ridiculous and with biblical support. We can not do this kind of thing do God's word. Why would Jesus ask His father " why have you forsaken me" if He was still in heaven with him. Why would Jesus say that He have not gone to His father after resurrection if He was always in Heaven?
Please what is this based on from the bible?

 

[nestoj]

I'm saying the Spirit of Christ is the Holy-Spirit.

But I digress...



Can you please provide Scriptural support for such a position (the bold part)?

2 Peter 3:8
But do not overlook this one fact, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and ta thousand years as one day.

Isaiah 57:15
For thus says nthe One who is high and lifted up,
who inhabits eternity, whose name is Holy:

You could also take a look at the general theory of relativity, and attempt to imagine a state without the expansion of the universe (in an assumption of a single universe existance). Essentialy, try to imagine an absolute stasis - no movement -no change - no time, and a being that initiates the changein that kind of environment. In a multiverse presumption it would be a bit different, but anyhow, multiverses don't neceserrily have the same realities (meaning dimensionalities, laws, mater and energy forms, space-time...). I'm not sure if they necessarily have all of those in every instance. In that case one could simply observe God as being in a different "universe".

 

[nestoj]

Yet, the primary passage that is being used here to define the environment of Hades and Paradise (Luke 16:19-31), has some the occupants engaged in conscious activities that could only happen within a period of 'time' (and in a state if mental awareness). For instance, talking is occurring. This is a sequential event happening over a specific duration.

I too think that person exists in Hades and Paradise, which requires that the person is in state of mental awareness (at least some persons do). As for the mentioned communication - I think that the Scripture had to represent it to us in some way we could grasp. In our reality, this kind of communication could, as you say, only happen "within a period of 'time' ". But, I don't think taht laws of our reality condition the events in an environment "around God". That communication could, possibly, happen without time. That would mean that past tense of a quote has no implication on what really happens to them. It could still be happening as we type and in the same time has happened already, bearing in mind that the participants have no "before". Actually, that reality is so disconnected from ours, that we can't place it anywhere within our tmeline. It simply is...happening.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

This statement is totally incorrect. Absolutely so.
Look at Luke 23: 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise. Move the comma and the text reads differently. I tell you today, you shall be with me. not that you are with me today. Here is why that is so. John 20: 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
Here 3 days later Jesus says that He has not yet ascended to His Father or indeed heaven. It is therefore impossible for the thief to have been in heaven with Jesus the day he died when Jesus Himself did not go.
Going to hell or heaven at death is not biblical.

Excellent, finally someone defending the truth.

 

[nestoj]

I think there's a common mistake made in attempt to equate the reality of God's existance with the reality ou our own.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

If I were to ask anyone here a scientific question, "can you think without a brain" the majority would immediately say (without thinking) of course not. Correct?

But when you die that is exactly what happens. Your brain turns to dust. How can you think without a brain? The neural pathways become Jedi like and have a new path to follow? The brain is all about paths.

Does your breath hold your thoughts?

The breath 'pneuma' leaves the body and the soul dies.

The body plus the breath of life equals the soul.

God holds an exact blueprint of our souls which is every one of our thoughts, better than we can remember.

Our thoughts perish with us but God reanimates us and we remember everything. This does not happen until the resurrection or why would there need to be a resurrection?

So many scientifically minded people are actually spiritualist in their beliefs because of this point.

Did Jesus come out of the grave with a ghost body? Did Lazarus come out of the grave saying "hey I was in heaven why did you bring me back?" Silly silly silly.

The thought that we go directly to heaven or hell without our bodies is from Satan, recorded in the first lie spoken to Eve in the Garden "you shall not surely die". The basis and foundation for all counterfeit religions, including those calling themselves Christians is in this lie.