Is anyone in Heaven?

[Lion King]

No, the elect are in heaven. That is where they are gathered from when Christ returns.

Soul sleep is neither biblical nor what the Jews traditionally believed in.

Actually, the spirits of the elect are with God in heaven patiently waiting for the resurrection.

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

Actually, the spirits of the elect are with God in heaven patiently waiting for the resurrection.

Which is exactly what I have been saying.

 

[Lion King]

Which is exactly what I have been saying.

Yes, but to live in heaven, those spirits would need a celestial/spiritual/heavenly body. As for the moment, the "righteous dead" are sleeping in Jesus Christ until the resurrection of the dead.

For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 1 Thessalonians 4:14

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

Actually, the spirits of the elect are with God in heaven patiently waiting for the resurrection.

Yes, but to live in heaven, those spirits would need a celestial/spiritual/heavenly body. As for the moment, the "righteous dead" are sleeping in Jesus Christ until the resurrection of the dead.

You make no sense.

On one hand you say they are in heaven, on the other you say they are sleeping.

Make up your mind man, which is it?

 

[Lion King]

You make no sense.

On one hand you say they are in heaven, on the other you say they are sleeping.

Make up your mind man, which is it?

They are in heaven, fast asleep in God.

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

They are in heaven, fast asleep in God.

In a word, No.

 

[Jig]

If the elect are not in heaven after death awaiting the resurrection of their bodies then how are they gathered by the angels at the second coming?

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

This text is clear. Jesus descends from HEAVEN to gather and meet both dead and living Christians in the air. It is after this that we will always be with the Lord.

If the "dead in Christ" must rise up to meet Jesus who just left Heaven, they were obviously not in Heaven.

 

[Jig]

Jesus was able to leave Sheol by resurrecting from the dead. You can't leave Sheol without a resurrection!

 

[Lion King]

In a word, No.

Tell me, how do the elect reside in heaven with God without their resurrected bodies? Don't you have to have a heavenly body to be able to reside in heaven?

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

Tell me, how do the elect reside in heaven with God without their resurrected bodies? Don't you have to have a heavenly body to be able to reside in heaven?

They are spirit beings who await the resurrection of their bodies on the last day.

 

[Lion King]

They are spirit beings who await the resurrection of their bodies on the last day.

What are spirit beings? You mean like heavenly angels?

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

What are spirit beings? You mean like heavenly angels?

Jesus said that those who believe in him will never taste of death.

When our body dies our spirit goes to be with him until the last day when it is reunited with a glorified body.

 

[Setyoufree]

The thief on the cross was in paradise the very same day he was crucified. So it would seem that our souls go straight to heaven or hell.

Luke 23: It was now about the sixth hour, and darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour, 45 for the sun stopped shining. And the curtain of the temple was torn in two. 46 Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last. ... 54 It was Preparation Day (Friday), and the Sabbath was about to begin.

So Christ died about 3 PM in the afternoon. What about the other two men that were crucified?

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit (He died). 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the Preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross upon the sabbath (for the day of that sabbath was a high [day]), asked of Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away. 32 The soldiers therefore came, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other that was crucified with him: 33 but when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

So the other men were not dead. Sorry, the timeline doesn't match your conclusion.

 

[Lion King]

Jesus said that those who believe in him will never taste of death.

When our body dies our spirit goes to be with him until the last day when it is reunited with a glorified body.

Yea, but don't the Scriptures also say that to reside with God in heavenly Jerusalem, we need spiritual bodies? Isn't that the purpose of the resurrection of the dead?

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly Man. 1 Corinthians 15:44-49

 

[Setyoufree]

Jesus said that those who believe in him will never taste of death.

Quote me that verse....When you do you will realize that Jesus was speaking of the 2nd death, not the 1st.

When our body dies our spirit goes to be with him until the last day when it is reunited with a glorified body.

This has Roman Catholic origins. Please tell me what is good in you that transcends death as a result of sin entering the world? The resurrection is where you receive a sinless, glorified human life.

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

So the other men were not dead. Sorry, the timeline doesn't match your conclusion.

What? The other men died that day and the thief went to paradise just as Jesus promised; otherwise Jesus is a liar.

 

[dysert]

Jesus did not go to paradise when He died on the cross, but descended to Sheol. Paradise is in the third heaven, not "in the earth". By the way, I don't subscribe to the unfounded beliefs that paradise moved from Sheol to heaven.

Personally, I believe Christ told the thief he would be in the paradise of God when the Kingdom of God comes. The Kingdom of God has not physically come yet...

So Jesus was wrong when He said "today" you will be with me in paradise?

That was simply a parable. Parables are not meant to be taken literally.

Are the wicked burning in the fires of Sheol right now as we speak as the story of Lazarus and the rich man says?

There's no indication that it was a parable, so I accept it as truth. And yes, the wicked are in Sheol right now.


Re the Transfiguration:

I believe that was a vision.

According to Strong's the Greek word used for "vision", horama, means "something gazed at, that is, a spectacle (especially supernatural): - sight, vision." Nothing about the sight not being real.

Revelation does say a lot of things regarding heaven. Not sure all of it is meant to be taken literally...

No, not *everything* in Revelation is to be taken literally, but there's no indication that the souls under the altar is symbolic.

Yes, our spirits will be with God until the resurrection. However, no one can live in heaven without a celestial body and God won't give out those new bodies until the resurrection of the dead. So, to suggest that there are folks in heaven at the moment, we would have to ignore certain parts of the Scriptures IMO.

Where does it say that "no one can live in heaven without a celestial body"? And what parts of Scripture would have to be ignored if there are folks in heaven at the moment?

 

[Setyoufree]

What? The other men died that day and the thief went to paradise just as Jesus promised; otherwise Jesus is a liar.

No, Jesus isn't a liar, you are just a bit confused.

Here's the timeline again:

John 19:30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit (He died).

1] So Christ is dead.

31 The Jews therefore, because it was the Preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross upon the sabbath, asked of Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that] they might be taken away.

The Jews didn't want the two criminals left on the cross during the Sabbath.


32 The soldiers therefore came, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other that was crucified with him:

Notice the broke the legs of the 1st criminal then the other one.

33 but when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs.

Jesus had died. He wasn't going to run away if the Romans took Him down, but the other two men were alive, hence they broke their legs. They were still alive.

2] Both criminals were alive...that's why their legs were broken. So no one went to heaven that day.

Jesus did not go to paradise that day; neither did the thief who repented. In fact, after the resurrection, Jesus told Mary, "Don't cling to Me," Jesus told her, "for I have not yet ascended to the Father...."

 

[PreachingChristCrucified]

No, Jesus isn't a liar, you are just a bit confused.

No, I'm not confused; Jesus promised the thief that he would be in paradise that very day . Here is the text:

Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

So is Jesus a liar or were you confused, which is it?

 

[Setyoufree]

So Jesus was wrong when He said "today" you will be with me in paradise?

No, you are wrong because you aren't paying attention to detail.

Keep in mind that the Bible was inspired, but punctuation was added....Perhaps it should read: I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise?