Is anyone in Heaven?

[dysert]

I know closed minds and bad "scholarship" when I see them. I'm out.

 

[nestoj]

I understand that. However, the Spirit of Christ (The Holy-Spirit) did not go to paradise when He died, but descended to the spirits in prison. Paradise is in heaven and we know from the Scriptures that Jesus never went to heaven between His death and resurrection:

Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17

Are you saying that, in simplified terms, "Holy Spirit" is equivalent to the "Soul of Christ"? Ah, but then we disagree at a deeper level. I'm not the one of the belief that the Holy Spirit is "Spirit of Christ". Nevertheless, let's get back to our discussion. We believe that God was in Paradise. We believe that Christ is God. "Be with me in heaven", even if the Father is in heaven and Christ is in Hades, is not invalidated by person of Christ descending to preach in Hades. If God is one, then God is one - be with the Father, you're with one God; be with the Son, you're with that same one God. Furthermore, I'm an Orthodox Christian. We don't quite think there's a distance between Hades and Paradise. We actually don't think there's distance at all, and no concept of "place". Both of these are canceled by absence of time. When you've said: "descended to the spirits in prison", to me, thus, that ment "stepped out of time again", amongst other things. Once the thief on the right cross died - there was no today, or tommorow, for him. There was only "all now always now". Said thief was instantly with Christ, for him it doesn't mather that for us Christ was absent for three days. I don't know how to explain it differently.

 

[Setyoufree]

Maybe you're just afraid that you'll actually be convinced of sane doctrine.

Actually, it's a legalistic, self-righteous doctrine that attacks the gospel of Christ. It's Roman Catholic in origin.

 

[Setyoufree]

Yeah! Why would we ever want to look at what other godly men who came before us had to say! Especially when most devoted their lives to prayer and honest scholarship! We don't need no stinking Greek expert to tell us what the original Greek meant! Most Christians today know enough Greek to get by on their own!

Then make them your Pope...

 

[Setyoufree]

Actually, it's a legalistic, self-righteous doctrine that attacks the gospel of Christ. It's Roman Catholic in origin.

To anyone,

Tell me, why did Christ (as the Son of Man) die? This is a basic question...it's gospel 101....

 

[nestoj]

To anyone,

Tell me, why did Christ (as the Son of Man) die? This is a basic question...it's gospel 101....

To enter the state of death.

 

[Setyoufree]

To enter the state of death.

Why?

Clue: Gal chapter 3

 

[jamesonofthunder]

To anyone,

Tell me, why did Christ (as the Son of Man) die? This is a basic question...it's gospel 101....

Jesus had to die in order to pay the penalty for our sins.

He did not just die physically, he was "cut off" {dan 9:26} from the Father, from Gethsemane Thursday evening, to the resurrection Sunday morning. The three days and three nights of the sign of Jonah.

He paid the ultimate penalty for sin. Just as those who do not repent will pay at the second resurrection. Their blood pays for their own sins.

The whole sacrificial system gives us the model to see why he had to come and die for us.

 

[Setyoufree]

Jesus had to die in order to pay the penalty for our sins.

But Jesus isn't the sinner...we are the sinners. The law demands the death of the sinner. Was Christ a sinner?

Furthermore, Christ can't die instead of me (the sinner). According to Ez 18:20 "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son"

So guilt cannot be imputed to Christ the sinless one, legally speaking.

Let me ask the question differently:

How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]?

 

[Erose]

So, if Jesus never really left heaven, who descended to save us?

There seems to be a misunderstanding of what God is.

 

[Setyoufree]

There seems to be a misunderstanding of what God is.

God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three in one....

 

[Lion King]

Luke 20:37 And the fact that the dead are raised Moses himself showed, in the story about the bush, where he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.

Luke 20:38 Now he is God not of the dead, but of the living; for to him all of them are alive.”

In the former verse, he reinforces the Pharisee view.

In the latter verse, he clarifies that it is not limited to the future (resurrection). Even in death, they are still awake.

Can you please point out the part where it says they are awake?

Being alive =/= awake.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

But Jesus isn't the sinner...we are the sinners. The law demands the death of the sinner. Was Christ a sinner?

Furthermore, Christ can't die instead of me (the sinner). According to Ez 18:20 "The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son"

So guilt cannot be imputed to Christ the sinless one, legally speaking.

Let me ask the question differently:

How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]?

Jesus came for the express purpose to pay the penalty for sins, because we cannot be born into sin and be set free from sin in a fallen condition.

Jesus is our atoning sacrifice. We can make no atonement for ourselves; but by faith we can accept the atonement that has been made. “For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God.” “Ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, ...but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot.” No man of earth, no angel of heaven, could have paid the penalty for sin. Jesus was the only one who could save rebellious man. In Him divinity and humanity are combined, and this was what gave efficacy to the offering on Calvary’s cross. At the cross, mercy and truth met together; righteousness and peace kissed each other. As the sinner looks upon the Saviour dying on Calvary, and realizes that the Sufferer is divine, he asks why, this great sacrifice was made; and the cross points to the holy law of God, which has been transgressed. The death of Christ is an unanswerable argument to the immutability and righteousness of the law. In prophesying of Christ, Isaiah says, “He will magnify the law, and make it honourable.” The law has no power to pardon the evil-doer. Its office is to point out his defects, that he may realize his need of One who is mighty to save, realize his need of One who will become his substitute, his surety, his righteousness. Jesus meets the need of the sinner; for He has taken upon Him the sins of the transgressor. “He was wounded for our transgressions, He was bruised for our iniquities; the chastisement of our peace was upon Him, and with his stripes we are healed.” The Lord could have cut off the sinner, and utterly destroyed him; but the more costly plan was chosen. In his great love He provides hope for the hopeless, giving his only begotten Son to bear the sins of the world. And since He has poured out all heaven in that one rich gift, He will withhold from man no needed aid that he may take the cup of salvation, and become an heir of God, and joint-heir with Christ.

 

[Lion King]

Are you saying that, in simplified terms, "Holy Spirit" is equivalent to the "Soul of Christ"? Ah, but then we disagree at a deeper level. I'm not the one of the belief that the Holy Spirit is "Spirit of Christ".

I'm saying the Spirit of Christ is the Holy-Spirit.

But I digress...

Nevertheless, let's get back to our discussion. We believe that God was in Paradise. We believe that Christ is God. "Be with me in heaven", even if the Father is in heaven and Christ is in Hades, is not invalidated by person of Christ descending to preach in Hades. If God is one, then God is one - be with the Father, you're with one God; be with the Son, you're with that same one God. Furthermore, I'm an Orthodox Christian. We don't quite think there's a distance between Hades and Paradise. We actually don't think there's distance at all, and no concept of "place". Both of these are canceled by absence of time. When you've said: "descended to the spirits in prison", to me, thus, that ment "stepped out of time again", amongst other things. Once the thief on the right cross died - there was no today, or tommorow, for him. There was only "all now always now". Said thief was instantly with Christ, for him it doesn't mather that for us Christ was absent for three days. I don't know how to explain it differently.

Can you please provide Scriptural support for such a position (the bold part)?

 

[Setyoufree]

How can God justify the ungodly [Romans 4:5] and still maintain His integrity to His holy law which condemns sinners [Galatians 3:10]?

The answer of most evangelicals is Christ did away with the law.

If that's the case then Christ's death is meaningless. Why? Because it is the broken law that demands death.

So there's massive confusion when it comes to the gospel.

The truth is that your life from Adam died in Christ as the Son of Man. As the Son of God He assumed your life substance after the fall. That's why Paul states,

Rom 7:4 So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ...

Notice, that your life from Adam died in the humanity of Christ. What demanded YOUR death? The law! So in Christ the law is satisfied. That's the gospel.

Turn to Romans 6:6 "For we know that our old self was crucified with him"....

Our old self?

Tell me, when did you come into being? I didn't ask when you were born, I asked when you were created?

Ps 139:13 For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.

But aren't we born sinful? Yes, according to Ps 51:5....Then did Christ create sinners? No!

But it says that He knit me in my mother's womb. What does that mean? Let's read the context:

14 I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well. 15 My frame was not hidden from you when I was made in the secret place. When I was woven together in the depths of the earth, 16 your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.

So God created the human race when He created Adam. When Adam sinned our unformed substance was in him. So when Adam sinned our humanity was polluted with sin (our bent to self).

Christ, as the incarnation, took upon His Divinity our fallen race so that when His assumed humanity died, you died. Hence the law has been legally answered in the doing & dying of Christ as the Son of Man and the Son of God.

That's the gospel!

 

[Lion King]

Is this turning into a Law thread?

 

[Setyoufree]

Jesus came for the express purpose to pay the penalty for sins....

But again, the law requires your death. Christ isn't the sinner.

If you murder someone and I go before the judge and say, "I'll die in James' place" the judge will die laughing. Why?

Because no law will allow the innocent to take the condemnation of the guilty.

 

[jamesonofthunder]

Can you please point out the part where it says they are awake?

Being alive =/= awake.

Job 14


14 “Mortals, born of woman,
are of few days and full of trouble.
2 They spring up like flowers and wither away;
like fleeting shadows, they do not endure.
3 Do you fix your eye on them?
Will you bring them before you for judgment?
4 Who can bring what is pure from the impure?
No one!
5 A person’s days are determined;
you have decreed the number of his months
and have set limits he cannot exceed.
6 So look away from him and let him alone,
till he has put in his time like a hired laborer.

7 “At least there is hope for a tree:
If it is cut down, it will sprout again,
and its new shoots will not fail.
8 Its roots may grow old in the ground
and its stump die in the soil,
9 yet at the scent of water it will bud
and put forth shoots like a plant.
10 But a man dies and is laid low; he breathes his last and is no more.
11 As the water of a lake dries up
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
12 so he lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, people will not awake or be roused from their sleep.

13 “If only you would hide me in the grave
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!
14 If someone dies, will they live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal to come.
15 You will call and I will answer you;
you will long for the creature your hands have made.
16 Surely then you will count my steps
but not keep track of my sin.
17 My offenses will be sealed up in a bag;
you will cover over my sin.

18 “But as a mountain erodes and crumbles
and as a rock is moved from its place,
19 as water wears away stones
and torrents wash away the soil,
so you destroy a person’s hope.
20 You overpower them once for all, and they are gone;
you change their countenance and send them away.
21 If their children are honored, they do not know it;
if their offspring are brought low, they do not see it.
22 They feel but the pain of their own bodies
and mourn only for themselves.”



Psalm 76:5


5 The valiant lie plundered,
they sleep their last sleep;
not one of the warriors
can lift his hands.




Jeremiah 51:39


39 While they are inflamed I will prepare them a feast
and make them drunk, that they may become merry,
then sleep a perpetual sleep
and not wake, declares the Lord.

 

[Setyoufree]

Is this turning into a Law thread?

No! We have a gospel because God's law condemns sinners.....Jesus came to save sinners from the curse of the law!

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written , Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

 

[Lion King]

No! We have a gospel because God's law condemns sinners.....

Is anyone in heaven?