How about if one says they are for G_d alone? Does that subside the divisions?
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My opinion, which maybe isn't worth muchis that believing that the Torah is still in effect doesn't negate one calling oneself a Christian. If you accept that Jesus is the messiah, then you are a Christian. Observing Torah or not should not affect that.
the basic tenets of Christianity are not accepting that Jesus was the promised Jewish Messiah, but a savior from sin and that there was a New Covenant which didn't require following the Torah.
I think that your opinion is worth a lot and what you say is true. Shalom.
Hah! Going to church or synagogue no more makes you a Christian/Messianic than standing in your garage makes you a car.
Many go for show, I've witnessed that for over 50 years.
You will be surprised one day to find that those who are truly of G-d were not the ones sitting in the pews, and they will be surprised also.
Lord, Lord, didn't I.....................?
I love the Torah and find myself following it more than when I first began asking questions in the MJ Forum. I feel the same way about all of Scripture. But it is interesting what has happened to many of us with reference to embracing Torah. It also feels very natural, like a natural progression of faith. Shalom.
unfortunately I think Lulav has a point even though I like ChavaK's point of view too.
I'll put an icon back, like I used to have, for very simple reasons of believing Jesus is all the things that Christianity says He is, but not because I believe that the Torah is null and void.
Which presumably both Christians and Messianics believe
That does not negate the fact that accepting Jesus as messiah/savior means that Messianics/Christians have a shared faith-which centers on Jesus.
Because a Christian is somebody that has a worship system built on Babylonian traditions. Christians are against the law, against the Jews, and against most of what I believe.
???? From me too!Saying Messianics are Christians goes against the SOF here?
I believe in Jesus but I would never consider myself Christian.
Because a Christian is somebody that has a worship system built on Babylonian traditions. Christians are against the law, against the Jews, and against most of what I believe.
These are my opinions of course, But the Jesus I worship looks nothing like the Jesus that the majority of Christians worship.
If somebody asked me if I'm a Christian and I say,'' yes'', they automatically stick Christmas, easter, Sunday Sabbaths, the gaining of wealth teachings right on my back.
Most of the Christians who know me think I'm pretty much antichrist and I think the same of them.
I'm not certain what you are fishing for in your post.
Other than some differences in beliefs and practice, the meaning of "Christian" and "Messianic" is pretty much synonymous. It means someone who follows Messiah.
So, if you "accept Christ" and follow him... yeah.
I've always loved the being in the garage analogy and so true.
My opinion, which maybe isn't worth muchis that believing that the Torah is still in effect doesn't negate one calling oneself a Christian. If you accept that Jesus is the messiah, then you are a Christian. Observing Torah or not should not affect that.
Which presumably both Christians and Messianics believe
That does not negate the fact that accepting Jesus as messiah/savior means that Messianics/Christians have a shared faith-which centers on Jesus.
Saying Messianics are Christians goes against the SOF here?
???? From me too!
Lets not divorce ourselves from the rest of the Believers guys
MJs may be unique but we are not non believers and we are not un orthodox Believers
Couldn't have said it better.The Jesus part is just as much a part of shared faith as worshiping the same G-d as the Jews do, but the main difference in Christian and Messianic which I thought was spelled out in our SOF is that we believe the Torah to still be in effect that there weren't new holidays commanded but to celebrate the originals as well as Shabbat.
You can't say a Messianic is a Christian because you have to be able to reverse that to a Christian is a Messianic. Now to Jews who want to lump us all together they see us the same, however we do not and our SOF specifies that.
To wit
1. This is a Torah Observant forum where those in Judaism as well as the Gentiles who are coming to Messiah, and those who already know Him, may come and grow and learn more about a Torah observant life in Messiah. We advocate Torah Observance as part of our walk with Messiah Yeshua, since He is our example and was Torah Observant, along with the disciples. This can be an area of great division with much misunderstanding, so we must realize that we are all at different points in our walk and that the Ruach Elohim (the Spirit of God) will lead people to The Truth. We realize that not all Messianics have equal levels of Torah observance. The disputes concerning this matter will not be tolerated.
And
Please keep in mind that we consider Messianic Judaism to be a completely valid form of Judaismthat doesn't need the permission or affirmation from any other sect of Judaism to exist. Therefore, we don't believe it is necessary to convert to Orthodox Judaism or any other branch of Judaism to belong. Although there are different expressions of Messianic Judaism, as there are in other Judaisms, we believe Messianic Judaism; a Torah observant Judaism who believes Yeshua is the Messiah and believes the Apostolic writings hold authority, to be the true expression of Judaism that the scriptures and the God of Yisrael intended.
It doesn't say we are a form or branch of Christianity.
Couldn't have said it better.
Christianity simply is not Jewish it is in my opinion, very anti-Jewish, anti Messiah in that the ways and traditions and the things they do with their hands are no doubt to do with a Babylonian Messiah.
I believe that Christians converted to old religions and they need to convert to being Messianic, to join a branch of a Messianic congregation.
But how would a whole family suddenly change all their holidays and Sabbaths?
It would seem impossible and we clearly see that it was always impossible because the first ones to convert to Christ went back to their old holidays they always celebrated and just added the name ,'' Jesus.''
The first true gentiles died BECAUSE they began keeping the Passover and Jewish things.
I would say that Revelation was written with the mind that Rome had already went back to the old Pagan ways. After the Jewish war the whole world hated the Jews and Rome Taxed the Jews with an unbelievable tax.
If a gentile convert was observed keeping the Passover, then they also received the Jewish Tax and were hated along with the Jews.
Great Roman pressure and Jewish Pressure trying to separate gentile Christians away from Jews.
It was finally accomplished in 135 at the burning of the great synagogue which was blamed on Christians. Hadrian hated Jews so bad that he exiled them along with any gentile convert with Jewish ways.
Synagogues were handed over to the Greek orthodox Christians which were taken from the Jews and the gentile Messianic.
These Greek Orthodox mad a deal with Hadrian in accepting the Pagan Saturnalia into their new Christian worship.
Why be black balled, why receive a great Jewish Tax?
If you were caught doing Jewish things which were really God's ways, then you were greatly persecuted.
The easy way would be to accept the old Pagan ways and add a new God to it rather being persecuted because you forsook the Saturnalia and the spring festival.
That's conversion.
Those greek Orthodox were not in the same religion as the first Messianic who followed God's ways, in fact, they were the ones persecuting the followers of Christ.
They formed a whole knew religion called,'' Christianity.''
That is my favorite part...[/I]And [/SIZE][/COLOR][/FONT]
Please keep in mind that we consider Messianic Judaism to be a completely valid form of Judaism that doesn't need the permission or affirmation from any other sect of Judaism to exist.
It doesn't say we are a form or branch of Christianity.
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