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Is aionion necessarily coequal in duration with aionion (in Mt.25:46)?

Pneuma3

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Universalism comes from semetics and treating the gospel like a puzzle that needs to be put together to see it, but it itself is actually not taught in scripture. There is never the question "how long will the punishment be?" and likewise it is never answered, not explicitly or implicitly. For all I know Jesus just wags his finger at us but this is not what the gospel reveals to us.

When we begin to teach something that was never meant to be there to begin with we take away from the gospel and this is why it retards it. Try to explain universalism using the words of Jesus. The question is "how long is the punishment?" or "is the punishment forever?" now answer that using the language and focus of Jesus only. What you get is an unanswered question where you just simply have to admit we are no told these details.

It's like OSAS doctrines, although they can be extrapolated in scripture they themselves are not taught and we take something away from the gospel when we hyper focus on these details that seem to only exist philosophically. For example let's take the parable of the talents in Mat 25. If at the end of the parable if someone asks Jesus "Yes, but how long is the servant kicked out for?" Jesus would probably reply "Didn't you even listen to the parable!?" It's just completely from the left field and has nothing to do with the focus the gospel puts on the antithesis to our reward in Jesus. Let's take the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, if the reply was "How long is the rich man punished before he can join Abraham's side?" Again Jesus would look at them and say something like "stop trying to figure it out details that don't belong and listen to the parable"

Hi DW, do you believe the literal translations of the bible are a corruption of the Hebrew and Greek text?the literal translations use the word age and age-abiding, or age-during which is in direct contradiction to translations that are interpreted such as the KJV. One of them is obviously correct and the other is not. So my question to you is, which would be more accurate a literal translation or a translation by interpretation?

You seem to believe by your posts so far in this thread that an interpretive (which is made by man) is more accurate then a literal translation.

Now if the literal translation is more accurate (an I do believe it must be more accurate then man's interpretive translation) then the scripture does indeed speak of an age of life or punishment.
 
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Pneuma3

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Universalism comes from semetics and treating the gospel like a puzzle that needs to be put together to see it, but it itself is actually not taught in scripture. There is never the question "how long will the punishment be?" and likewise it is never answered, not explicitly or implicitly. For all I know Jesus just wags his finger at us but this is not what the gospel reveals to us.

When we begin to teach something that was never meant to be there to begin with we take away from the gospel and this is why it retards it. Try to explain universalism using the words of Jesus. The question is "how long is the punishment?" or "is the punishment forever?" now answer that using the language and focus of Jesus only. What you get is an unanswered question where you just simply have to admit we are no told these details.

It's like OSAS doctrines, although they can be extrapolated in scripture they themselves are not taught and we take something away from the gospel when we hyper focus on these details that seem to only exist philosophically. For example let's take the parable of the talents in Mat 25. If at the end of the parable if someone asks Jesus "Yes, but how long is the servant kicked out for?" Jesus would probably reply "Didn't you even listen to the parable!?" It's just completely from the left field and has nothing to do with the focus the gospel puts on the antithesis to our reward in Jesus. Let's take the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, if the reply was "How long is the rich man punished before he can join Abraham's side?" Again Jesus would look at them and say something like "stop trying to figure it out details that don't belong and listen to the parable"

Well if a literal translation is correct then it is those that teach age during punishment as eternal punishment would be teaching something that was never meant to be there to begin with. So try reading Jesus words in a literal translation and you will see Jesus is NOT speaking of eternal anything but rather He is speaking that which all the holy prophets of old spoke which is the restitution of all things.
 
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Pneuma3

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Universalism comes from semetics and treating the gospel like a puzzle that needs to be put together to see it, but it itself is actually not taught in scripture. There is never the question "how long will the punishment be?" and likewise it is never answered, not explicitly or implicitly. For all I know Jesus just wags his finger at us but this is not what the gospel reveals to us.

When we begin to teach something that was never meant to be there to begin with we take away from the gospel and this is why it retards it. Try to explain universalism using the words of Jesus. The question is "how long is the punishment?" or "is the punishment forever?" now answer that using the language and focus of Jesus only. What you get is an unanswered question where you just simply have to admit we are no told these details.

It's like OSAS doctrines, although they can be extrapolated in scripture they themselves are not taught and we take something away from the gospel when we hyper focus on these details that seem to only exist philosophically. For example let's take the parable of the talents in Mat 25. If at the end of the parable if someone asks Jesus "Yes, but how long is the servant kicked out for?" Jesus would probably reply "Didn't you even listen to the parable!?" It's just completely from the left field and has nothing to do with the focus the gospel puts on the antithesis to our reward in Jesus. Let's take the parable of Lazarus and the Rich man, if the reply was "How long is the rich man punished before he can join Abraham's side?" Again Jesus would look at them and say something like "stop trying to figure it out details that don't belong and listen to the parable"

Hmmm aren't parables to be interpreted? thus they are meant to leave us with questions to ask, in other words to seek out the meaning of the parable.

However you want to look at it DW when it is all said and done the gospel we are commanded to teach is Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men; specially of those that believe.

So I ask you again DW, how can we be wrong if we are teaching exactly what we are commanded to teach? and if this is what we are commanded to teach (and it is) what can then be said of the doctrines that teach something contrary to what we are commanded to teach? would they not then be another gospel which we in scripture are warned about.
 
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Pneuma3

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Then grasp this:
Col 4:6  Let your speech be alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man. 

“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’ – Matthew 25:34-36 (NIV)

Matthew 25:32-33 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 3:12  Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. 

Revelation 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 


15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. 


Mat 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen. 


now try quoting all that in a literal translation
 
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DamianWarS

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With that kind of reasoning, if most people were atheists you'ld say it's irresponsible to rule out atheism. And it's irresponsible to get in the ark with Noah. And it's irresponsible to follow Jesus.
um... not really. I'm looking at the gospel as a whole not only the parts I like best. There is no suggestion to look outside the bible at some popular vote.
 
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DamianWarS

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Hi DW, do you believe the literal translations of the bible are a corruption of the Hebrew and Greek text?the literal translations use the word age and age-abiding, or age-during which is in direct contradiction to translations that are interpreted such as the KJV. One of them is obviously correct and the other is not. So my question to you is, which would be more accurate a literal translation or a translation by interpretation?

You seem to believe by your posts so far in this thread that an interpretive (which is made by man) is more accurate then a literal translation.

Now if the literal translation is more accurate (an I do believe it must be more accurate then man's interpretive translation) then the scripture does indeed speak of an age of life or punishment.

how many languages do you know? you would never say this if you knew more than one languages
 
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DamianWarS

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Well if a literal translation is correct then it is those that teach age during punishment as eternal punishment would be teaching something that was never meant to be there to begin with. So try reading Jesus words in a literal translation and you will see Jesus is NOT speaking of eternal anything but rather He is speaking that which all the holy prophets of old spoke which is the restitution of all things.
translations are inherently flawed, formal or dynamic equivalent. if you want to understand the flawed words you need to go beyond a translation and take some time to study it.
 
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DamianWarS

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Hmmm aren't parables to be interpreted? thus they are meant to leave us with questions to ask, in other words to seek out the meaning of the parable.

However you want to look at it DW when it is all said and done the gospel we are commanded to teach is Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men; specially of those that believe.

So I ask you again DW, how can we be wrong if we are teaching exactly what we are commanded to teach? and if this is what we are commanded to teach (and it is) what can then be said of the doctrines that teach something contrary to what we are commanded to teach? would they not then be another gospel which we in scripture are warned about.
because universalism avoids very direct language used in the bible.
 
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ClementofA

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But you also know there is just as many that suggest otherwise.

Is there. You didn't post even one.

This is why I think a dogmatic view here is irresponsible.

Just because you can't see how the Scriptures harmonize doesn't make those who can see "irresponsible". Ask God to open your eyes. Surely He knows the answer & is not confused & in the dark on this subject. Ask & ye shall receive, He said.

We can't ignore the rest simply because we don't like it.

Who ignores anything? All some guys in this & other threads can do is post a bunch of scriptures. Then i answer each & every one of them & prove how they don't support their endless punishment viewpoints. Then they ignore my replies & post the same verses over & over again, as if they hadn't been answered already.
 
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DamianWarS

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Is there. You didn't post even one.



Just because you can't see how the Scriptures harmonize doesn't make those who can see "irresponsible". Ask God to open your eyes. Surely He knows the answer & is not confused & in the dark on this subject. Ask & ye shall receive, He said.



Who ignores anything? All some guys in this & other threads can do is posts a bunch of scriptures. Then i answer each & every one of them & prove how they don't support their endless punishment viewpoints. Then they ignore my replies & post the same verses over & over again, as if they hadn't been answered already.

you like to assume a lot from me. I am not advocating endless punishment. What I am saying is dogmatic universalism is irresponsible.
 
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ClementofA

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I am not advocating endless punishment. What I am saying is dogmatic universalism is irresponsible.

Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true. Especially when the answers to your very few reasons silenced you.

Why aren't you calling endless annihilation & endless torments "irresponsible"? You keep singling out universalism, but never say the endless punishment views are irresponsible.

When you asked Love Omnipotent if universalism is true, what did He tell you? Did He say "It doesn't matter"? Or "I have no clue"? Or how about "Don't worry about it"? Or more likely "Duh!"

There is an infinite difference between a God who will torture the vast majority of human beings for all eternity & a God who will not.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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he-man

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now try quoting all that in a literal translation
??? Colossians 4:6 your word always in grace—with salt being seasoned—to know how it behoveth you to answer each one. [YLT]
with your word at all times in favor, [with salt being seasoned], to know how it is necessary for you [ each to answer]. [ABP+]

Mat 25:32 And he shall gather together before him all the nations, and he will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the kids of the goats [ABP+]
and gathered together before him shall be all the nations, and he shall separate them from one another, as the shepherd doth separate the sheep from the goats,
and he shall set the sheep indeed on his right hand, and the goats on the left.

Mat 25:34 'Then shall the king say to those on his right hand, Come ye, the blessed of my Father, inherit the reign that hath been prepared for you from the foundation of the world; 41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers; [YLT]
41 Then he will say also to the ones on his left, Go from me! O ones being cursed into the [fire eternal], the one having been prepared for the false accuser and his messengers.
46 And these shall go forth unto [From G2849; penal infliction eternal]; but the righteous unto life eternal [ABP+]

Matthew 3:12 of which the winnowing fork is in his hand, and he shall throughly purge his threshing, and shall gather together his grain into the repository; but the chaff he shall incinerate [fire by inextinguishable] [ABP+]
whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly cleanse his floor, and will gather his wheat to the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable.'
Revelation 20:14 and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire—this is the second death; 15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire. [YLT]
And death and the unseen were thrown into the Lake of fire. This is the [death second] -- the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if any should not be found [in the scroll of life written he was cast (out)], into the lake of fire. Matthew 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen. [ABP+] for many are called, and few chosen.' [YLT]
 
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he-man

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1. I was hungry & you gave me no meat.

2. I was thirsty & you gave me no drink.

3. I was a stranger & you took me not in.

4. I was naked & you did not clothe me.

5. I was sick & in prison & you did not visit me.
Rev 20:15 And if any should not be found [in the scroll of life written he was cast (out)], into the lake of fire. Matthew 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen. [ABP+] for many are called, and few chosen.' [YLT]
 
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FineLinen

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Rev 20:15 And if any should not be found [in the scroll of life written he was cast (out)], into the lake of fire. Matthew 22:14  For many are called, but few are chosen. [ABP+] for many are called, and few chosen.' [YLT]

Focus he-man: focus! Do not jump around from one colored Scripture to another! The defining reasons for a goat being punished with "everlasting punishment" are found in Matt. 25!

You are aware a goat is a clean animal? Both sheep and goats are clean! Hmmmm!

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..."
 
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DamianWarS

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Repeating the same thing over and over again doesn't make it true. Especially when the answers to your very few reasons silenced you.

Why aren't you calling endless annihilation & endless torments "irresponsible"? You keep singling out universalism, but never say the endless punishment views are irresponsible.

When you asked Love Omnipotent if universalism is true, what did He tell you? Did He say "It doesn't matter"? Or "I have no clue"? Or how about "Don't worry about it"? Or more likely "Duh!"

There is an infinite difference between a God who will torture the vast majority of human beings for all eternity & a God who will not.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
I keep repeating it because you keep repeating arguments against endless torture. You're not defending dogmatic endless torture so I'm not calling it out. in the parable of the unforgiving servant a servant is forgiven 10,000 talents by his master. The servant than refuses to forgive 100 denarii and throws the person who can't pay it back in Jail. When the master learns of this he called him a wicked servant and throws him in jail "until he should pay all his debt"

now a universalist sees a finite amount of time because the servant has a finite amount owing which is 10,000 talents. But this is a western way of thinking by demanding a finite number which is not what is in the parable. A talent is the highest measurable money and 10,000 or a "myrios" in the ancient roman world is a word used for an indefinite or in-measurable amount. so when Jesus uses the amount 10,000 talents he is expressing the highest amount of the highest measurement possible and not something meant to be counted.

but, if we were to define it, a talent refers to a weight of gold, about 33kg. 33 kilos of gold today is about $1,400,000 so if we get 10,000 of these you get 14 billion dollars. What master loans his servant $14 billion dollars and then forgives him? we miss the point when we count it out like this and then assign a finite time spend in jail for the servant as we would miss the point of calling 70 times 7 a finite amount of times for forgiveness which is the opening context for this parable. The master shows us how many times we should forgive which is an impossible and immeasurable debt that cannot be paid back, and it is this same measure that the servant is jailed.

does this show us an endless punishment? the context of the parable actually leans towards this and not to universalism.
 
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Pneuma3

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translations are inherently flawed, formal or dynamic equivalent. if you want to understand the flawed words you need to go beyond a translation and take some time to study it.

We actually seem to agree on something for I see every translation as a small commentary on the original language.

I also agree that we have to study the original word to find out its meaning.

So we have two different meanings from one word aion and its adjective.

1 age and that which pertains to an age
2 eternal, that which is without beginning and without end.

Now you seem to be saying the word aion is so ambiguous that we cannot get a clear picture of exactly what the word means. Is this correct or do you hold to the meaning of eternal?

And if you hold to the meaning of eternal how are we being anymore dogmatic then you are?
 
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he-man

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Focus he-man: focus! Do not jump around from one colored Scripture to another! The defining reasons for a goat being punished with "everlasting punishment" are found in Matt. 25!

You are aware a goat is a clean animal? Both sheep and goats are clean! Hmmmm!

"From Him the all comes, through Him the all exists, and in Him the all ends..."
1Jnhn 4:15 whoever may confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God in him doth remain, and he in God;

Titus 1:16 God they profess to know, and in the works they deny Him , being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work disapproved.

Colossians 1:16 because in him were the all things created, those in the heavens, and those upon the earth, those visible, and those invisible, whether thrones, whether lordships, whether principalities, whether authorities; all things for sake of him, and for him, have been created,
17 and he is before all, and the all things in him have consisted. [YLT]

Colossians 1:16 for in him were created the whole, the things in the heavens, and the things upon the earth -- the visible and the unseen; whether power , whether
government , whether principality, whether jurisdiction; the whole by reason of him and in him have been created.
17 And he is in front of all, and the all in him found. [ABP+]
 
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Pneuma3

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because universalism avoids very direct language used in the bible.

does it? or does it avoid certain translation of the original language.

Tell me DW is this scripture direct enough for you.

Jesus Christ is the saviour of all men, specially of those that believe, this command and teach.

That is a very plain and direct statement, one which every single believer in eternal torment or annihilation I have ever met so far have no answer to, the only thing they say is it cannot mean what it say because of this scripture or that scripture and each and every time it is a scripture that uses the word aionion.

That should tell you something DW if you really think about it.

Instead of trusting the plainness of scripture in what we are commanded to teach they lean on their own understanding of the word aionion and hold that understanding as truth over the plainness of scripture.

And they do so even when given an understanding of aionion that is in agreement with what we are commanded to teach
 
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