• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Is abortion really soooo bad for a Christian pastor to be promoting? -- Warnock

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,933
Georgia
✟1,099,996.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
However, like Clare, you agree that there are at least some circumstances where the unborn child should be ripped out of a pregnant woman,
That is like saying "you agree that there are times when whole towns should be burned alive" or "so you agree that there comes a time when every human on earth should be drowned alive".

Are you going down that road in defence of elective abortion on demand as if killing the baby of a pregnant woman is directly decreed by God as judgment on the woman and her family (n the same way that the woman and her family and her entire town were being condemned to death in the examples you give)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,559
4,834
59
Oregon
✟901,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
That is like saying "you agree that there are times when whole towns should be burned alive" or "so you agree that there comes a time when every human on earth should be drowned alive".
I'm not drawing any conclusions or inferences from your stated belief. That's your cross to bear.

It's your belief that there are at least some circumstances where it's righteous. I'm simply affirming that I understand your position.

You believe and assert that Sometimes it's justified as a righteous, Godly recompanse for a guilty pregnant woman to pay for her guilt by having her belly ripped open and her innocent, unborn baby dashed against the rocks.

How you apply that belief of yours to other topics is your own decision.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,636
2,465
Perth
✟206,094.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,636
2,465
Perth
✟206,094.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
I'm not drawing any conclusions or inferences from your stated belief. That's your cross to bear.

It's your belief that there are at least some circumstances where it's righteous. I'm simply affirming that I understand your position.

You believe and assert that Sometimes it's justified as a righteous, Godly recompanse for a guilty pregnant woman to pay for her guilt by having her belly ripped open and her innocent, unborn baby dashed against the rocks.

How you apply that belief of yours to other topics is your own decision.
I too have often wondered how one who proclaims that literal interpretations are the best or at least ought to be taken as the primary intended meaning of a passage, deals with imprecatory psalms and with other passages describing the slaughter of Israel's enemies.
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,636
2,465
Perth
✟206,094.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Clare73
Parousia 70: you assert there are at least some circumstances that the unborn child should be ripped out of a pregnant woman

I assert that God is sovereign over his creation, and he can do with it as he pleases.
I assert there are some circumstances where God's justice requires punishment of death.
I assert the slaughter of pregnant women necessarily means the death of the children.
I assert mankind is forbidden to take the life of the innocent (convicted of no crime), no ripping babies out of women.
I assert that God has the right to take the life of all. . .he gave it, he can take it away.
I assert that God has the right to take human life in any way he sees fit, including ripping children from the womb.
Those two comments are interesting.
Especially in the context of a "right to life" debate.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,933
Georgia
✟1,099,996.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
I too have often wondered how one who proclaims that literal interpretations are the best or at least ought to be taken as the primary intended meaning of a passage, deals with imprecatory psalms and with other passages describing the slaughter of Israel's enemies.
Israel was inclined to take the text as David wrote it and had no problem with the idea that God literally cursed their enemies - in fact outright destroyed enemies as at the exodus from Egypt.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Clare73
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,933
Georgia
✟1,099,996.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Live Results: Raphael Warnock vs. Herschel Walker: Georgia US Senate election

Georgia Senate race too close to call, appears headed for a runoff

Luke 12 says those that know better - are held more accountable in the sight of God.

47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

But what about in politics?

Are "we" accountable for our vote in that case?

Some will say that the convenience of killing the baby outweighs the Lev 18 warning about killing babies. But some will know that is not a good case for doing it.

=======================

In the 2000s, Warnock was senior pastor at Douglas Memorial Community Church in Baltimore, Maryland.
.In 2005, Warnock became senior pastor of the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia, Martin Luther King Jr.'s former congregation;

Although a Christian pastor Warnock promotes abortion on demand and provides no limits for it in his campaign.

Lev 18 says that killing babies is one of the "lines crossed" that God will judge even a pagan nation for engaging in.

In the mid 1800's democrats in the South struggled with understanding "The value of human life" and so they supported politics that endorsed slavery. So then some confusion among them regarding "The value of human life".

Warnock reminds us that confusion regarding "The value of human life" has not been fully resolved for some Christians.



The voters voted since the day you posted the original post.
Indeed - the "runoff" I posted about - did take place.

My post was specifically about "accountability for actions" as in Lev 18:21 and EX 21:22-23 when it comes to killing babies.
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,559
4,834
59
Oregon
✟901,523.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I assert mankind is forbidden to take the life of the innocent (convicted of no crime), no ripping babies out of women.
Would you assert you had the right to take my life if I were to forcibly attempt to use your body against your will so I may live?

Say I need a Bone Marrow Transplant and you are a match.

Do you have the right to refuse to give me your bone marrow? Even to the point of Killing me should I attempt to forcibly take it from you against your will?

Or would you assert that mankind is forbidden to refuse the use of their body by another, so the other may live?
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
29,538
7,606
North Carolina
✟349,507.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Would you assert you had the right to take my life if I were to forcibly attempt to use your body against your will so I may live?
I assert the right of Creator God to dispose of his creation as he pleases.
His first law is that only he has all rights over human life, which is his, and not our, creation.

And secondly, pregnancy is not based on the choice of the fetus, nor is it forcibly attempting to use your body.
What a sick, pathetic and most grievous misrepresentation to avoid responsibility for one's own choices, shifting it to helpless human life.
Say I need a Bone Marrow Transplant and you are a match.

Do you have the right to refuse to give me your bone marrow? Even to the point of Killing me should I attempt to forcibly take it from you against your will?
If I am totally responsible for your critical need of bone marrow, then you have an absolute right to bone marrow from me.
Or would you assert that mankind is forbidden to refuse the use of their body by another, so the other may live?
I would assert that you are absolutely responsible to preserve the life you have initiated, because that life's absolute right to live trumps your personal convenience.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,636
2,465
Perth
✟206,094.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Israel was inclined to take the text as David wrote it and had no problem with the idea that God literally cursed their enemies - in fact outright destroyed enemies as at the exodus from Egypt.
How do you know what ancient people interpreted imprecatory psalms to mean?
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,636
2,465
Perth
✟206,094.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Indeed - the "runoff" I posted about - did take place.

My post was specifically about "accountability for actions" as in Lev 18:21 and EX 21:22-23 when it comes to killing babies.
Voting is an action, do you see it as participating in abortion?
 
Upvote 0

Xeno.of.athens

I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven.
May 18, 2022
7,636
2,465
Perth
✟206,094.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Single
Voting, being an action, may imply support for things that are troubling for me - such as supporting executions carried out by the state. Some executions are of innocent people. That is known from DNA evidence and from other tings too.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,933
Georgia
✟1,099,996.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,933
Georgia
✟1,099,996.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Voting, being an action, may imply support for things that are troubling for me - such as supporting executions carried out by the state.

If a politician says "I promise that if you elect me I will work very hard to get the death penalty implemented in your state or across all states" -- and then you vote for that guy - well then you are a participant in getting that system of law put in place. This is irrefutable.

I notice that in Genesis 9 God calls for the death sentence to be executed by civil governments of man for certain crimes - so in my view it is not something the Bible rejects outright. There are cases for that according to the Bible.

Some executions are of innocent people. That is known from DNA evidence and from other tings too.
Some people get put in jail for life and then DNA evidence later shows that they were innocent. But that does not mean we get rid of jails.

Since we all agree that - abortion is not about sentencing the baby to death in a court room due to a supposed crime of the Baby -- it might be a good idea to get back to the subject of thread.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,933
Georgia
✟1,099,996.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
How do you know what ancient people interpreted imprecatory psalms to mean?
The Jews are pretty confident that the atrocities that happened against them in history -- are real. And they are also pretty sure that Israel did go to war with its neighbors.

I don't see how this is even a little bit confusing.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
53,397
11,933
Georgia
✟1,099,996.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Would you assert you had the right to take my life if I were to forcibly attempt to use your body against your will so I may live?
Is it your argument - that when a woman engages in an act of procreation -- that the baby is holding a gun to her head as a female of the species that is able to procreate and give birth??? seriously??

The "adults in the room" that are choosing to kill a helpless baby are farrrr more responsible for their own actions ... than trying to blame it all on a baby.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: The Liturgist
Upvote 0

Diamond72

Dispensationalist 72
Nov 23, 2022
8,303
1,521
73
Akron
✟57,931.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
I doubt anyone who is pro-choice would likely show up.
Maybe God is pro choice. I picked abortion clinics one summer. We had five churches, 300 people stand hand to hand all the way around the block praying for God to shut down that clinic. The owners felt they had compassion and they were helping those 13 year old girls. I was very surprised at how young the girls were that were going there for "help".

I am not aware of God ever shutting down those clinics. Even though I prayed and prayed for the life of those babies. It was as if He was saying that He was giving them a choice. Clearly in some cases abortion is the "easy" choice if the baby has downs syndrome and will be a life time job to take care of a disabled child. I am still against abortion for any reason, but it is a difficult choice for people to make. I would not want to take care of their baby for them.

I am well aware that there are lots and lots of babies in Heaven. When we get there we will be teaching them and helping to take care of them. Jesus said heaven is all about the children. If people do not want to take care of their babies then heaven may not be the right place for them.
 
Upvote 0

Diamond72

Dispensationalist 72
Nov 23, 2022
8,303
1,521
73
Akron
✟57,931.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Married
the baby is holding a gun to her head
Did the baby hold a gun to her head to force her to have sex in the first place? The Bible says the wages of sin is death. If someone were to try to rape me I think I would fight to death to not be used in that way. I played football, so if I were to get jumped it would be like being out on the football field. Also, I went through basic training in the army during the Vietnam war. I would not ever want to kill anyone. I pray that God would watch over me so I was never in that situation. But we are trained to take weapons away from people. We are also trained that whatever damage people try to do is redirected back at them so they only hurt themselves. My son trained under a master that was 80 years old and there was a film of him fighting five of his students. They would take turns, but he still had 5 people coming at them and deflected their attack away from himself. But he was not trying to do them any harm, just defend and protect himself.

Also, we have angels watching over us to protect us. We pray for protection when we drive a car so an idiot does not get us into an accident. I pray for 50 to 100 feet of protection around my car. The enemy stays away because he does not want to mess with our angels, given to us for protection. I hear of people who are given a whole army of angels if they are on special assignment. Like during a revival or something like that.
 
Upvote 0

The Liturgist

Traditional Liturgical Christian
Site Supporter
Nov 26, 2019
15,845
8,376
50
The Wild West
✟778,546.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Generic Orthodox Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
I am not aware of God ever shutting down those clinics. Even though I prayed and prayed for the life of those babies. It was as if He was saying that He was giving them a choice.

There are several problems with this argument, especially from the perspective of Wesleyan theology, which I teach in my two mission parishes, in that It presupposes a Calvinist determinism which is contrary to Methodist Arminianism, and even under Calvinism or it still fails because it fails to acknowledge the idea of sinfulness and repentence, and under Arminianism it fails on an absolute basis because with Arminian theology, God, to quote the Book of Common Prayer, “desireth not the death of a sinner, but rather that he may turn from his wickedness and live” but as Arminians, Wesleyans say that God gives us a choice.

To put it another way, it was absolutely not God’s will that the idols to the demon Moloch would be constructed in Gehenna, and of the horror that fires were lit in them into which even the people of Israel were deluded into sacrificing their children, God said “It had not occurred to me that you would do such a thing,” which is strong language from He who knows all things. However, despite the manifest evil of these Moloch idols, which like all idols are according to Psalm 95:5 LXX demonic (“The gods of the gentiles are demons”), God did not at the time destroy them, although it was within His power to do so, although fortunately most or all of them have been destroyed since, one would hope by the hand of the Jews under the Maccabean dynasty and the Roman Empire under St. Theodosius, with a few more hopefully eradicated by Muslims.

Likewise God did not immediately destroy the Coliseum, although the games were eventually banned under Emperor Honorius thanks to the intervention of St. Telemachus, who was the last of many Christians (including St. Ignatius of Antioch, who was famously fed to lions and who famously forbade the church in Rome from trying to rescue him) to receive the Crown of Martyrdom in the Arena, which he entered in an attempt to get between the gladiators and physically prevent them from fighting, which resulted in him being stoned by the crowd, which moved Emperor Honorius to repentance, which for him entailed the prohibition of the games.

Now the law prohibits Christians from obstructing access to abortion clinics, and we should not do that anyway; indeed earlier today I read a sermon by St. John Chrysostom on the importance of not depriving people of their moral agency. The point is that, contrary to your hypothesis, God having not yet eradicated abortion clinics does not mean that He approves of them, nor does it mean that He will not eradicate them in the future.

Indeed, we are moving closer to being delivered from this evil thanks to the ruling of the Supreme Court last summer, which was an act of enormous good, to the extent that in the years to come I think it is quite possible that some Christian members of the Supreme Court who made that decision, as well as a great many of the millions of Roman Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox and traditional Protestant Christians who campaigned for this might be beatified or even glorified as saints among the Catholics, Orthodox, and High Church Anglicans, Lutherans and Methodists who actively venerate the saints.


Clearly in some cases abortion is the "easy" choice if the baby has downs syndrome and will be a life time job to take care of a disabled child. I am still against abortion for any reason, but it is a difficult choice for people to make. I would not want to take care of their baby for them.

The mass murder of infants with Down Syndrome is a great tragedy of our time, reminiscent of ancient Sparta, where “defective” infants were discarded, or “Aktion T4” in the Third Reich in which “invalids” were given what today we would no doubt call “assisted suicide,” something the United Church of Canada has started to actually celebrate, writing a liturgy for it and allowing these homicides to occur in the apses of their parish churches! The tragedy of aborting or killing someone with Down Syndrome is that people with Down Syndrome actually can live enjoyable and fulfilling lives. And to me, abortion is at least as bad as killing them after birth, because with abortion one is even denying them the chance to experience a sunrise or any of the other pleasures of life.

Also, there are registries of couples which can be viewed online who have pledged a willingness to adopt and care for children with Down Syndrome, so it is not aa though these infants are without hope of proper medical care.

I am well aware that there are lots and lots of babies in Heaven. When we get there we will be teaching them and helping to take care of them. Jesus said heaven is all about the children. If people do not want to take care of their babies then heaven may not be the right place for them.

That is a beautiful sentiment.
 
  • Informative
Reactions: SashaMaria
Upvote 0