Is abortion really soooo bad for a Christian pastor to be promoting? -- Warnock

[BobRyan]

Live Results: Raphael Warnock vs. Herschel Walker: Georgia US Senate election

Georgia Senate race too close to call, appears headed for a runoff

from: Abortion Statistics | ALL

• 1 abortion every 34 seconds (GI)
• Total number of abortions in the U.S. 1973-2020: 63.6 million +
• ...
• U.S. abortions in 2020: ~930,160 (GI)
• Abortions per day: ~2,548 (GI)
• Abortions per hour: ~106 (GI)

Luke 12 says those that know better - are held more accountable in the sight of God.

47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

But what about in politics?

Are "we" accountable for our vote in that case?

Some will say that the convenience of killing the baby outweighs the Lev 18 warning about killing babies. But some will know that is not a good case for doing it.

=======================

In the 2000s, Warnock was senior pastor at Douglas Memorial Community Church in Baltimore, Maryland.
.In 2005, Warnock became senior pastor of the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia, Martin Luther King Jr.'s former congregation;

Although a Christian pastor Warnock promotes abortion on demand and provides no limits for it in his campaign.

Lev 18 says that killing babies is one of the "lines crossed" that God will judge even a pagan nation for engaging in.

In the mid 1800's democrats in the South struggled with understanding "The value of human life" and so they supported politics that endorsed slavery. So then some confusion among them regarding "The value of human life".

Warnock reminds us that confusion regarding "The value of human life" has not been fully resolved for some Christians.

In other news:

30,000 Doctors Say: “Abortion is Never Medically Necessary to Save a Mother’s Life” - LifeNews.com

Medical leaders representing more than 30,000 doctors said intentionally killing a late-term unborn baby in an abortion is never necessary to save a mother’s life. In a letter published at The Public Discourse, leaders of the American College of Pediatricians, American Association of Pro-Life...

www.lifenews.com

Fact #8: Less than 1% of all abortions are performed to save the life of the mother. - AbortionFacts.com

It is an extremely rare case when abortion is required to save the mother’s life. Of course, when two lives are threatened and only one can be saved, doctors must always save that life. However, abortion for the mother’s life and abortion for the mother’s health are usually not the same issue...

www.abortionfacts.com

 

[Gregory Thompson]

if you feel accountable for the decisions of the people you vote for, then don't vote - every person you vote for will make mistakes, that's what people do.

 

[GDL]

But what about in politics?

The answer to the OP question is: It depends on who you ask - and more pointedly, this includes within Christianity.

It seems to me that most Christians don't consider politics to be that important. If Christianity was of the one mind re: righteousness that's discussed in our Text, things would be quite different.

I think we're all way more accountable than we think we are.

 

[chevyontheriver]

Are "we" accountable for our vote in that case?

We are accountable for every word we utter. We are accountable for how we vote.

 

[chevyontheriver]

The answer to the OP question is: It depends on who you ask - and more pointedly, this includes within Christianity.

It seems to me that most Christians don't consider politics to be that important. If Christianity was of the one mind re: righteousness that's discussed in our Text, things would be quite different.

I think we're all way more accountable than we think we are.

If Christianity was of one mind we would be a terrific witness to the world. We would also have a very different politics in this country without having to even be political.

 

[rambot]

Live Results: Raphael Warnock vs. Herschel Walker: Georgia US Senate election

Georgia Senate race too close to call, appears headed for a runoff

Luke 12 says those that know better - are held more accountable in the sight of God.

47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

But what about in politics?

Are "we" accountable for our vote in that case?

Some will say that the convenience of killing the baby outweighs the Lev 18 warning about killing babies. But some will know that is not a good case for doing it.

=======================

In the 2000s, Warnock was senior pastor at Douglas Memorial Community Church in Baltimore, Maryland.
.In 2005, Warnock became senior pastor of the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia, Martin Luther King Jr.'s former congregation;

Although a Christian pastor Warnock promotes abortion on demand and provides no limits for it in his campaign.

Lev 18 says that killing babies is one of the "lines crossed" that God will judge even a pagan nation for engaging in.

In the mid 1800's democrats in the South struggled with understanding "The value of human life" and so they supported politics that endorsed slavery. So then some confusion among them regarding "The value of human life".

Warnock reminds us that confusion regarding "The value of human life" has not been fully resolved for some Christians.

Is there a Bible Verse that SPECIFICALLY AND EXPLICITLY outlaws abortion because I've never seen one? I've seen a lot of verses that show that God knows us before we were born. That he cared about us even then.

The only verse that I've seen that even discusses a baby dying inside of the mother (due to a fight) seems to suggest nothing of the sort. I mean, it's also based on texts that the Jewish faith holds true and most Jews argue that abortion is permitted within the Jewish faith.

Frankly, abortion was perscribed as a way to discern judgement of an adulterress in Numbers. How much value in human life does it suggest that the fetus can just be murdered like that?


If you look at Judaic law through Leviticus etc.... you probably noticed it's pretty micromanagy. I would imagine that if abortion would have TRULY been detestable, a simple law like "Do not kill a fetus inside of a mother. It is an abomination" would have CERTAINLY shown up.

 

[bèlla]

The question reminds me of a song.

We’re dealing with oil and water. They’re clearly opposites. The fact that we don’t recognize this is shameful. What fellowship does godliness have with murder?

~bella

 

[public hermit]

Live Results: Raphael Warnock vs. Herschel Walker: Georgia US Senate election

Georgia Senate race too close to call, appears headed for a runoff

Luke 12 says those that know better - are held more accountable in the sight of God.

47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

But what about in politics?

Are "we" accountable for our vote in that case?

Some will say that the convenience of killing the baby outweighs the Lev 18 warning about killing babies. But some will know that is not a good case for doing it.

=======================

In the 2000s, Warnock was senior pastor at Douglas Memorial Community Church in Baltimore, Maryland.
.In 2005, Warnock became senior pastor of the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia, Martin Luther King Jr.'s former congregation;

Although a Christian pastor Warnock promotes abortion on demand and provides no limits for it in his campaign.

Lev 18 says that killing babies is one of the "lines crossed" that God will judge even a pagan nation for engaging in.

In the mid 1800's democrats in the South struggled with understanding "The value of human life" and so they supported politics that endorsed slavery. So then some confusion among them regarding "The value of human life".

Warnock reminds us that confusion regarding "The value of human life" has not been fully resolved for some Christians.

If you are accountable in regards to one policy for which you vote, you're accountable for all the policies that are supported by that party. So, for instance, not only are you accountable for supporting policies banning abortion but also policies supporting the death penalty. If you're looking to have voting hands without blood on them, you're out of luck. This govt, which all voters support, has very bloody hands. There's no avoiding it and no way to feign innocence. Let's assume all voters will be found guilty at the judgment day for supporting ungodly policies, let's quit acting like there is an innocent party, and let's focus on trying to do the best we can.

 

[Neostarwcc]

Is there a Bible Verse that SPECIFICALLY AND EXPLICITLY outlaws abortion because I've never seen one? I've seen a lot of verses that show that God knows us before we were born. That he cared about us even then.

The only verse that I've seen that even discusses a baby dying inside of the mother (due to a fight) seems to suggest nothing of the sort. I mean, it's also based on texts that the Jewish faith holds true and most Jews argue that abortion is permitted within the Jewish faith.

Frankly, abortion was perscribed as a way to discern judgement of an adulterress in Numbers. How much value in human life does it suggest that the fetus can just be murdered like that?


If you look at Judaic law through Leviticus etc.... you probably noticed it's pretty micromanagy. I would imagine that if abortion would have TRULY been detestable, a simple law like "Do not kill a fetus inside of a mother. It is an abomination" would have CERTAINLY shown up.

There is no Bible verse that outlaws abortion in the Bible. However it does condemn murder and says that murderers should be put to death (That's God's opinion not mine). The Bible also in multiple places says that a baby is alive the moment the supermarket fertilizes the egg. Not only does the Bible say it but it is scientific fact. Therefore a fetus is alive and taking that life is murder so therefore abortion is murder and is wrong. Hence why most true Christians are pro life.

There's also a double standard. It's ok for a mother to murder a child yet if the father takes a shotgun and kills both the mother and baby regardless at what stage the baby is in I'm guilty of two murders. If a doctor and mother have the right to kill their unborn children than the husband should have just as much right.

 

[BobRyan]

If you are accountable in regards to one policy for which you vote, you're accountable for all the policies that are supported by that party.

Yes that is true - so looking at Lev 18 to see which of those policies show up in God's cross hairs even for a pagan non-bible-aware nation -- note the details.

So, for instance, not only are you accountable for supporting policies banning abortion but also policies supporting the death penalty.

Agreed. Of course in this case I think there is no party calling for the nation to ban the death penalty and in Gen 9:5 God actually calls mankind to implement the death penalty for the crime of murder. My thinking is that God is not going to hold us in low regard for choosing to follow His Word. Some may differ with me on this point - and of course they have free will and can choose to do that.

This govt, which all voters support, has very bloody hands.

No doubt all governements have done something amiss. But what is our level of participation in those misdeeds. When an option shows up for slowing one of those misdeeds down and we refuse to step up to the plate -- it seems likely that "God will notice"

============== since this always comes up sooner or later

A bit of medical science added here

from: After Your Water Breaks, How Long Can Baby Survive?

How long a baby can live once your water breaks depends on a number of factors, so there’s really no straight answer with all things considered.

• In cases where your baby would be premature, they may survive just fine for weeks with proper monitoring and treatment, usually in a hospital setting.
• In cases where your baby is at least 37 weeks, current researchTrusted Source suggests that it may be safe to wait 48 hours (and sometimes longer) for labor to start on its own. (But your caregiver may have a different protocol, like 24 hours.)

The key is monitoring. If your water breaks and you don’t get medical attention, your baby could face some serious risks and even die. You, too, are at risk of infection and other complications.

 

[BobRyan]

There is no Bible verse that outlaws abortion in the Bible. However it does condemn murder

Indeed - killing humans is the crime of murder. Particularly killing them for the sake of "Convenience".

 

[BobRyan]

Is there a Bible Verse that SPECIFICALLY AND EXPLICITLY outlaws abortion

When two men are fighting and one man hits a pregnant woman where that baby dies - then the punishment in the Bible is "a life for a life" Ex 21:22-23 -- so then at least it is a sign that the Bible author does not approve of killing those babies even if they are still unborn.

rambot
If you look at Judaic law through Leviticus etc.... you probably noticed it's pretty micromanagy. I would imagine that if abortion would have TRULY been detestable, a simple law like "Do not kill a fetus inside of a mother. It is an abomination" would have CERTAINLY shown up.

well.. the death penalty for killing that unborn baby - looks like a pretty strong indication of God having a negative view of it

 

[rambot]

When two men are fighting and one man hits a pregnant woman where that baby dies - then the punishment in the Bible is "a life for a life" Ex 21:22-23 -- so then at least it is a sign that the Bible author does not approve of killing those babies even if they are still unborn.

Prove to me that is talking about the baby and NOT the mother.

In the NIV, their is a footnote that takes the phrase "gives birth prematurely" and substitutes it with "has a miscarriage".

So if those two are interchangeable, and since a fetus can't die twice (ie..."if a fetus dies due to miscarriage and there is ALSO serious injury to the fetus"....well, that doesn't make sense) , it seems the logical answer is the "serious injury" comment in that verse is referring to the mother.

I can understand why you may disagree with that sentiment but I think a reasonable person would also accept that this wording would leave a LOT of wiggle room.

And as I said, the context of Leviticus is pretty clearly laid out in terms of "X is bad".

well.. the death penalty for killing that unborn baby - looks like a pretty strong indication of God having a negative view of it

Well, in regards to my argument, see the above statement.

But, in regards to the verse in Numbers I discuss above, it seems that killing the baby is kind of flippant actually; I mean, it's used to figure out if a woman had an affair.

Again, Jews allow abortion.

 

[rambot]

There is no Bible verse that outlaws abortion in the Bible. However it does condemn murder and says that murderers should be put to death (That's God's opinion not mine). The Bible also in multiple places says that a baby is alive the moment the supermarket fertilizes the egg. Not only does the Bible say it but it is scientific fact. Therefore a fetus is alive and taking that life is murder so therefore abortion is murder and is wrong. Hence why most true Christians are pro life.

For the record, "Supermarket fertilizes the egg" is my favourite autocorrect I've ever seen. The Bible does NOT say that a baby is alive the moment that happens. What it says is that God KNEW you before he "wove you together in the womb"; NOT that you are alive from that moment. To me, it suggests that God new me even BEFORE my mom was pregnant with me; and it's a comforting thought.
The "You Shall Not Murder" line is a bit vague. I mean, folks kill in times of war all.the.time. The Old Testement is fraught with many stories of ancient Israelites doing some terrible things to the unwanted inhabitants of their future land of milk and honey.

I don't think "most true Christians" are prolife. But I DO think that most christians who are prolife do they think others are NOT Christian; regardless of how little abortion ACTUALLY has to do with Jesus' resurrection story and God's abundant grace for us.

There's also a double standard. It's ok for a mother to murder a child yet if the father takes a shotgun and kills both the mother and baby regardless at what stage the baby is in I'm guilty of two murders. If a doctor and mother have the right to kill their unborn children than the husband should have just as much right.

You will be disappointed to find out that THAT legislation was put forward by Republicans to cause the VERY confusion you experience. If the father possesses the means to kill the child WITHOUT harming the mother....no problem. It COULD be argued that a shotgun blast to a pregnant belly...MAY harm the mother though.

 

[Neostarwcc]

For the record, "Supermarket fertilizes the egg" is my favourite autocorrect I've ever seen. The Bible does NOT say that a baby is alive the moment that happens. What it says is that God KNEW you before he "wove you together in the womb"; NOT that you are alive from that moment. To me, it suggests that God new me even BEFORE my mom was pregnant with me; and it's a comforting thought.
The "You Shall Not Murder" line is a bit vague. I mean, folks kill in times of war all.the.time. The Old Testement is fraught with many stories of ancient Israelites doing some terrible things to the unwanted inhabitants of their future land of milk and honey.

I don't think "most true Christians" are prolife. But I DO think that most christians who are prolife do they think others are NOT Christian; regardless of how little abortion ACTUALLY has to do with Jesus' resurrection story and God's abundant grace for us.



You will be disappointed to find out that THAT legislation was put forward by Republicans to cause the VERY confusion you experience. If the father possesses the means to kill the child WITHOUT harming the mother....no problem. It COULD be argued that a shotgun blast to a pregnant belly...MAY harm the mother though.

I know right? I left the auto correct there on purpose once i noticed it. Anyway, yes it does confirm science see Luke 1:41. When John as a fetus saw Jesus's fetus he leaped in her womb. How can he have leaped if he wasn't alive? Even if the bible doesn't say anything about science I cannot fathom how the pro choice argument goes against basic science. Life starts at conception. This shouldnt be up for debate it is wrong to kill an innocent human being.The Bible also says that God hates the shedding of innocent blood (Psalm 6). Shotgun to the stomach or a kick in the stomach what's the difference? It's still murder. My point is if a man kills a mother and baby he is charged with two murders. Or if he kills a baby regardless of stage he is charged with murder. Abortion is murder period. I mean, the Bible also doesn't have anything to say on masturbation yet it is a sin. The Bible cannot say every single sin in the world it would be hundreds of thousands of pages because we all sin each and every day.

 

[public hermit]

But what is our level of participation in those misdeeds.

That's a good question. We are a govt of the people. We elect those who legislate. What you seem to be suggesting is not only are we responsible for those we elect, we are responsible for what the legislators enact, and then we are responsible for individuals who make choices within the bounds of the law. It is odd to see conservatives, who are so big on personal choice and the responsibility of personal choice, argue that not only is the state responsible for those individual choices, but the voter is responsible for those individual choices, as well.

I'm not a fan of abortion, but I believe there are people who need access to them under dire circumstances. If I vote for a legislator who will make that happen, and someone has an abortion due to the inconvenience of pregnancy, am I now responsible for that person's choice? I don't think so. If you support the death penalty because you think horrendous acts deserve horrendous consequences, and then an innocent person is put to death even though they were found guilty and sentenced under the existing law, are you now responsible for that? I don't think so.

We live in a complicated world where people have to make complicated choices, and we are tasked with trying to elect legislators who will form laws to meet those needs, whatever they might be. We all have our reasons for the votes we cast, and to assume that casting that vote is as simple as one issue , or one way of framing an issue, is simply disingenuous.

 

[BobRyan]

Again, Jews allow abortion.

Jews did not accept Christ and opposed Paul. In Mark 7:6-13 Christ said that Jews had many traditions that conflicted with the Word of God... so that idea "alone" does not put the approval of God on a specific suggestion.

 

[BobRyan]

Prove to me that is talking about the baby and NOT the mother.

Exodus 20 says murder is a sin - that is talking about both the mother and the father and also the baby.

But if we bend-and-wrench Exodus 21:22-25 into "just the mother" notice what it turns into...

Here is the unbent version

22 “If men struggle with each other and strike a woman with child so that she gives birth prematurely, yet there is no injury, he shall surely be fined as the woman’s husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. 23 But if there is injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise.​

Now if we ignore the life of the child (which the Bible never does) then the only time it is wrong to injure a woman or kill a woman - is when she is pregnant. That is an extreme bend-and-wrench just to avoid the obvious implications if the child that is born prematurely is subject and not an unimportant side issue.

Given that Exodus 20 already makes it a crime to kill the woman - the only thing you are getting out of Ex 21:22 in that bent version is finding a time when it is ok to injure or kill a woman nothing else is being added to what you already have in Ex 20 in the bent version.

But in the unbent version - the special case is a pregnant woman that gives birth prematurely and the life being considered is the life of the baby that is born "prematurely". This is not about finding a good time to injure or kill a woman and discovering that it most certainly is not while she is pregnant. Rather it is about the "premature birth" - and the life of the child that is then born prematurely. Obviously.

But I do appreciate the bind that this text puts a person in that is partial to the idea of deliberately killing the baby during pregnancy.

 

[BobRyan]

That's a good question. We are a govt of the people. We elect those who legislate. What you seem to be suggesting is not only are we responsible for those we elect, we are responsible for what the legislators enact,

True. If a politician tells you up front that he is a communist and wants to see America move in that direction and will do everything he can legally to support such moves - then you vote for him. Well then you are an accomplice to the agenda he/she is publically stating.

If that politician says he wants to see Christianity outlawed in America and will do everything he can legally to promote anything that is leaning in that direction -- and you vote for him. Well then you are an accomplice to the agenda he/she is publically stating.

There is more than one citizen in America that would accept that line of thinking when it comes to accountability. I don't see this as a controversial or complicated idea.

 

[public hermit]

True. If a politician tells you up front that he is a communist and wants to see America move in that direction and will do everything he can legally to support such moves - then you vote for him. Well then you are an accomplice to the agenda he/she is publically stating.

If that politician says he wants to see Christianity outlawed in America and will do everything he can legally to promote anything that is leaning in that direction -- and you vote for him. Well then you are an accomplice to the agenda he/she is publically stating.

There is more than one citizen in America that would accept that line of thinking when it comes to accountability.

Okay, but you skipped the other part. Are voters responsible for the actions of individuals done within the boundaries of the law?