Is abortion really soooo bad for a Christian pastor to be promoting? -- Warnock

Diamond7

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Wesleyan theology,
Wesley did not accept Calvan or Arminian. He is known for the Holiness movement which is pretty widespread. This is more of a lifestyle than a theology. He felt his biggest mistake was not to set the standards higher for the way people actually presented themselves in dress and in style. That is fine if you reject the conclusion I came to and what I feel God is telling me. I am just trying to make sense of our anti-abortion efforts at the time. Now there just seems to be a delay as the court is shutting down some of the abortion mills. The anti supreme court justices are taking their life in their hands by outlawing abortion. U.S. Supreme Court Associate Justice Antonin Scalia, 79, who was found dead of apparent natural causes is highly suspect to me. I looked and the next decision he was going to make had to do with non-union federal employees having to pay union dues. This is a massive amount of money that could only be obtained by bumping off Scalia. Maybe they are content with the protection they are given. But for their family, I wonder if they are giving them the protection they need in light of what just happened to Pelosi's husband. Although there was a lot Pelosi could have done to secure that house against people breaking in. You look at those flimsy glass doors and it is like an open invitation.
 
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Diamond7

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Likewise God did not immediately destroy the Coliseum
The Coliseum was built in part with materials taken from the temple in Jerusalem. The Arch of Titus tells a part of the story and they have found plaques in the coliseum also.
arch-of-titus-menorah-1594235403.png
 
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The Liturgist

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Maybe God is pro choice.

Given that he permitted Israel to be conquered by Babylon as a result of the sacrifice of children to Moloch, I think we can rule that out.

Also, the Early Church, which we can be absolutely sure was God-directed* as this was the era of the Apostles, the Martyrdoms, especially under Diocletian, tne Council of Nicaea, the Arian persecution of Christians which followed the death of Emperor Constantine, and the leadership of such great Christians as St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. Justin Martyr, St. John Chrysostom, the Cappadocians, the Desert Fathers and Mothers, and St. Athanasius, who helped define the creed at the first ecumenical council, and later in his life introduced in the Church of Alexandria the first officially enforced New Testament canon with the same 27 books we presently use, was consistently opposed to abortion.

Indeed even many of the heretical cults that the early church had to contend with were opposed to abortion, with one or two very grim exceptions, the details of which I will not discuss as they are distressing.

Indeed only since the 1960s have any Christian denominations supported it, although members of the mainline Protestant denominations, many of whom are still reeling over their church adopting anti-scriptural doctrines of human sexuality, would be shocked to see how many of the mainline denominations are donating to support the abortion industry, and how much they are donating. This includes among others the United Methodist Church, the United Church of Christ, the Episcopal Church USA, the United Church of Canada (and of course that most liberal of denominations, the Unitarian Universalist Association). This is why I recommend not donating money directly to these denominations, but instead donating it to specific charities operated by the church where you know the funds won’t be used to advocate for abortion. I should also add I have not yet looked into whether the ELCA, PCUSA, American Baptist Convention, the Christian Church/Disciples of Christ or any of the smaller mainline churches are donating this; I hope not, obviously, but I don’t know.

I picked abortion clinics one summer. We had five churches, 300 people stand hand to hand all the way around the block praying for God to shut down that clinic. The owners felt they had compassion and they were helping those 13 year old girls. I was very surprised at how young the girls were that were going there for "help".

Clearly the owners were in a state of deep spiritual delusion. And 13 year old girls really should be protected from the abortion industry as they lack the maturity to understand what they are getting into, for the same reason that in most jurisdictions, 13 is below the Age of Consent. I know of many Christian women who were traumatized by being coerced into abortions as teenagers, and who did not recover until they found peace in the Christian faith . In many cases, it was the girls own parents who wanted the abortions to happen, fearing the stigma of teen pregnancy, etc.

*We can be even more confident in the providential leadership of the Early Churcj since we are talking about the period before the 11th-13th century schisms that separated the Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East into four permanent denominational families (and also led directly to the fifth denominational grouping, Protestantism, separating from Roman Catholicism, because the Reformation started in Moravia and Bohemia in the mid 15th century when St. Jan Hus and St. Jerome of Prague, who are venerated as martyrs by the Eastern Orthodox, set out to restore communion in both kinds and a vernacular liturgy, which had been lost when Austria conquered Czechia and Slovakia and forcibly imposed Roman Catholicism on the formerly Eastern Orthodox people; this resulted in the formation of the Unitas Fratrum, the success of which despite extreme persecution along with the martyrdom of its two founders, along with the comtinued existence of the Franciscan-influenced Waldensians, inspired Martin Luther, whose success in turn emboldened John Calvin and Thomas Cranmer, and their success set off the Radical Reformation with the Anabaptists, Mennonites, Puritans and so on, which then prompted Restorationist and Pietist denominations to organize, such as the Quakers, the Stone/Campbell Movement and so on, and Methodism emerged, like Anglo Catholicism, as a reform movement within Anglicanism, but the revolutionary war in the US forced John Wesley to organize the American methodists into a separate denomination.
 
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Diamond7

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I think we can rule that out.
We are looking at a scripture here written by Moses. "15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess." (Deutronomy 30) Do you deny that God gives us a choice? I personally would rather not have a choice. Then He would become responsible and not me. We can only be held accountable for what we actually do ourselves.

I know Calvan thinks we have no choice, but that is why he is so controversial. Also, I have read Calvan and I do not think he said what people claim he said. So we are really dealing with hyper Calvinism. Calvian just asked a question: How can we have a choice when God is so wonderful. How can we resist God when His ways are so perfect. Why would we not want the Grace of God to do work in our life. This is a valid question, but people seem to get lost and do not understand what Calvan was saying.
 
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The Liturgist

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Do you just make this stuff up as you go along?

Absolutely not. I’ve had a lot of people accuse me of being too liberal, or too conservative, or too liturgical, or opposed to God’s law because I worship on Sunday, but you’re the first person on CF.com to accuse me of “making this stuff up” as I go along. Which actually amuses me considering that between minoring in theology (I majored in computer science), my MDiv and my postgraduate studies and scholarship, and my time in the ministry, I have spent nearly my entire adult life studying theology, much of that while serving in the ministry. At any rate, if you have any doubts as to the veracity of my prior post, please, research my claims. I am extremely confident you will find them accurate.

Wesley did not accept Calvan or Arminian.

I did not at any point in my post say John Wesley accepted Calvinism, not once. It is a matter of historic fact that John Wesley was an admirer of the Dutch theologian Arminius, and the United Methodist church has always been Arminian in its theology.

Now, in the early Methodist community there were some Calvinists, including Wesley’s friend George Whitefield, and the Countess of Huntingdon, but Wesley famously opposed Calvinism, and said once said to Whitefield “Your god is my devil.” Later the two reconciled, and John Wesley famously coined the Irenic phrase “We agree to disagree” on the subject of his Arminianism vs. Whitefield’s Calvinism.

However, Wesleyan theology is thoroughly Arminian.

He is known for the Holiness movement which is pretty widespread. This is more of a lifestyle than a theology. He felt his biggest mistake was not to set the standards higher for the way people actually presented themselves in dress and in style.

This is also a misconception, in that while the Holiness Movement was inspired by some of Wesley’s teachings on theosis, which Wesley called Entire Sanctification, but it did not emerge as a discrete movement until the mid to late 19th century, and it did so outside of the realm of the Methodist Church that John Wesley established in the United States, and the Methodist Churches his followers in Britain, Canada and elsewhere organized after his death. Rather the Holiness Movement has tended to organize its own new denominations.

So one could say that in a sense the Holiness Movement is Wesleyan-inspired, and thinks of itself as Wesleyan, but insofar as it ignores what John Wesley wrote and taught concerning liturgics, Holy Communion, fasting and so on, it is not entirely Wesleyan but is rather a blend of Wesleyan and Pietist influences.

That is fine if you reject the conclusion I came to and what I feel God is telling me.

Of course I reject it, if you actually think God is telling you that He is pro-choice. It directly contradicts sacred scripture, and the rationale you give is completely flawed, especially from the perspective of Wesleyan Methodist theology.

Again, to reiterate, God did not the Moloch statues in which children were sacrificed, but he was clearly opposed to the practice. And the abortion clinic is our modern day Moloch Statue.
 
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The Liturgist

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I know Calvan thinks we have no choice, but that is why he is so controversial. Also, I have read Calvan and I do not think he said what people claim he said. So we are really dealing with hyper Calvinism. Calvian just asked a question: How can we have a choice when God is so wonderful. How can we resist God when His ways are so perfect. Why would we not want the Grace of God to do work in our life. This is a valid question, but people seem to get lost and do not understand what Calvan was saying.

John Calvin, not Calvan (his last name is spelled Calvin, like the boy with the tiger named Hobbes in the popular comic strip), would be every bit as horrified as John Wesley by the idea that God is “pro-choice,” which is really saying that God is pro-abortion, since being pro-choice means that one does not regard abortion as an intolerable moral evil.

The only difference is how Calvin and Wesley would account for the existence of abortion clinics and why God does not immediately destroy them.

A Wesleyan would say that we have the free will to build such things, but we must repent of such acts of evil, and chose not to engage in such things, and encourage his congregation to search their consciences for the evil things they had done, to repent of before God, and work to overcome the sinful inclinations that caused them to engage in those evils, through the grace of the Holy Spirit sent down by Christ our Savior as our comforter and paraclete.

A Calvinist would use the example of the abortion clinics as a example of the depravity that the elect must repent of, and warn that those who do not repent of such evils and rely on Christ for their salvation are unregenerate, and God’s perfect justice demands that He appropriately avenge the evils committed by reprobates such as an unrepentant abortionist.

And both would be correct on a strictly Biblical basis, I can say, since before I became a Wesleyan I was myself a Calvinist, and I can attest that Calvinism and Arminianism cannot be proven or disproven scripturally. What ultimately pushed me in the direction of Wesley was the greater continuity between Wesleyan theology and Patristic theology, although in all fairness to Calvin, John Calvin also cared about compatibility with Patristic theology and he was extremely well versed in it, as anyone who has read his Institutes can attest. However, I believe Calvin misinterpreted the early church Fathers on the basis of an over-reliance on St. Augustine, which was the same mistake made by the Roman Catholic Scholastic theologians of his error, such as St. Thomas Aquinas, and also by Martin Luther, who actually was an Augustinian friar. Wesley for his part had a great affinity for the work of Luther (see the Aldersgate incident for a famous example), but at the same time was much less enthusiastic about St. Augustine, to the extent that at one point he considered whether the anathema against Pelagius might have been unwarranted (I myself detest Pelagius; the correct answer here is not to rehabilitate Pelagius but rather to look to the writings of St. John Cassian, such as his famed Conferences , which are what the Orthodox use to refute Pelagius and Pelagianism).
 
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Diamond7

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Calvin would be every bit as horrified as John Wesley by the idea that God is “pro-choice,” which is really saying that God is pro-abortion.
Those are conclusions that you are creating in your own head and your ideal of what "pro-choice" means. I am simply trying to study a Bible scripture with you. One that goes back to Moses. This is how I deal with people like Calvin, look to see what Moses said or look at the red letters to see what Jesus says. NO ONE even David adds to what we receive from Moses and Jesus. NOW lets try this a third time: Deuteronomy 30:15-20

" See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess".

What is Moses telling us in this verse? Does God give us a choice or not? Each and every person is accountable before God. You are not going to be there to defend anyone when they go before God. According to you, God does not give us a choice, that is up to someone else. So no one is responsible or accountable for the choices they make in life. Or maybe you think it is a virtual reality and the matrix makes our choice for us.

Perhaps neither Calvin nor Arminian understood the Holiness of God. That is why we needed Wesley to come along and fill the gap. My wife is a Methodist, so we have spent an equal amount of time in each other's church to learn and study their teachings. So I have read a lot of his sermons. They tend to miss represent Him and Calvin, but I can go along with your explanation as much as anyone in their attempt to understand. I just think we need to take a close look at what Moses is telling us and how to apply that to our lives.

There are actually a lot of choices we make: sickness or health, poverty or prosperity and so on.

It is funny about Luther, he liked to play the victim when the Catholic church was open to discussion. Even today if you look in a Catholic book store you will find a lot of his teaching there. I am a descendant of Bloody Mary's first martyr, the Bible translator. They rejoiced that they were counted worthy to be myrtered for Christ.
 
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Sabri

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I feel it’s horrible hypocritical and sends mixed messages to unbelievers. How can you be a pastor preach the word that says thou shall not kill and turn around and say it’s ok for woman to kill their unborn children. Woe to you hypocrites!
You will be beaten with more stripes you lead the people astray
 
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Diamond7

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How can you be a pastor preach the word that says thou shall not kill and turn around and say it’s ok for woman to kill their unborn children.
No one is saying it is "OK". The question is, why does a JUST God allow injustice? Look at man's court of law. Do we really get justice? People are raped, abused, and killed. Even innocent children. People are punished but that does not undo what they did. There is a lot of pain and misery in slavery and children suffer a lot. Who is there to right the wrong and get things back the way they should be? All the theology in the world does not really give me an answer that makes sense. We do not want innocent children raped or killed. So why does God allow it? How can He say that all things work together for good? Sure if we love God and we follow His plan and purpose all is good. But what about those who do not want to follow God? Even just about everyone admits to being a sinner and living a life of rebellion against God and his plans for us and His commandments. LOTS of people say we do not even have to follow the commandments of God. That is not what the Bible says. There is a lot of confusion and people are trying their best to make sense out of it. So I am not saying it is OK. I am just saying why does God allow it.

Of course, we have a theology that says man is given dominion, authority and control. So it is not God that allows it. We are the ones that are supposed to do something. Still, why would God create a world where there is so much potential for all the pain, misery, and sorrow so many people seem to have to endure? If a child is killed in the womb what could they have done that is worthy of death? Why would a parent kill their own child? Their own flesh and blood.

If Jesus is coming for a church without spots, blemishes, or wrinkles, just where is this perfect bride He is coming for?
 
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parousia70

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I assert the right of Creator God to dispose of his creation as he pleases.
His first law is that only he has all rights over human life, which is his, and not our, creation.
Agreed
And secondly, pregnancy is not based on the choice of the fetus, nor is it forcibly attempting to use your body.
What a sick, pathetic and most grievous misrepresentation to avoid responsibility for one's own choices, shifting it to helpless human life.
So rape isn't really a thing then?
If I am totally responsible for your critical need of bone marrow, then you have an absolute right to bone marrow from me.
Can you define totally responsible? If you are the only match who can geographically donate in time to keep me alive, does that make then make you "totally responsible"?
I would assert that you are absolutely responsible to preserve the life you have initiated, because that life's absolute right to live trumps your personal convenience.
And, if the life I "initiate", was forcibly put there by someone else against my will.... then what?
 
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parousia70

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Is it your argument - that when a woman engages in an act of procreation -- that the baby is holding a gun to her head as a female of the species that is able to procreate and give birth??? seriously??
And if a woman gets pregnant while a man is holding a gun at her head while raping her, is it your argument that it's the womans fault because she is able to procreate and she should have known better?
The "adults in the room" that are choosing to kill a helpless baby are farrrr more responsible for their own actions ... than trying to blame it all on a baby.
Again, if we are to say the Baby has the unimpeachable human right to the unfettered use of the woman's Body, we can't say that right ends at birth and still call it a "Human Right". We can have the discussion on whether the unborn should have the special prievlege of such unfettered use, and I believe they should, but we can't then call that special privelege afforded to the unborn a "Human right to life". The Human right to life doesn't end at birth.
 
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Clare73

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Agreed

So rape isn't really a thing then?
Can you define totally responsible? If you are the only match who can geographically donate in time to keep me alive, does that make then make you "totally responsible"?
And, if the life I "initiate", was forcibly put there by someone else against my will.... then what?
You get to decide whether to make it the new life's fault and take take it out on the new life, or to bring it to delivery and put it up for adoption.

There are a few walking around today who are most grateful that their mother did not take it out on the new life.
 
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parousia70

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You get to decide whether to make it the new life's fault and take take it out on the new life, or to bring it to delivery and put it up for adoption.

There are a few walking around who are most grateful that their mother did not take it out on the new life.
Well, you don't really get the choice to give birth... you get the choice to take the chance that you might give birth and that there will be no complications that could end up killing you. If you are Black, that risk is double. If you are 10 years old, the risk is astronomical.

Now if your position is people shouldn't have the right to defend themselves, with deadly force if necessary, against bodily harm or death, then we can have that discussion.
 
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Clare73

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Well, you don't really get the choice to give birth... you get the choice to take the chance that you might give birth and that there will be no complications that could end up killing you. If you are Black, that risk is double. If you are 10 years old, the risk is astronomical.

Now if we are to say people shouldn't have the right to defend themselves, with deadly force if necessary, against bodily harm or death, then we can have that discussion.
We have the right to defend ourselves against those whose intention is to do bodily harm.
 
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Diamond7

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So rape isn't really a thing then?
Fuzzy wazzy was not very fuzzy was he? Rape implies that the woman has communicated what she does or does not want. Also looking back is not the same as looking forward. Perhaps there was consent but they did not know what they were consenting to. We are perhaps our own worst enemy. People can not confront what is in them. They want to project it out and blame someone else. There are just a lot of extenuating circumstances. But some of us can not accept that horrendous thing go on in this world.

There are women who wonder why men do not want to have anything to do with them. Perhaps the men do not want to take a chance on getting accused of something that was more of a lack of communication. So they just stay away and avoid the situation. You have people like Harvy Weinstien that is very powerful and clearly, women would chase after him because he had million-dollar jobs to offer. Perhaps they got more than they bargained for and really should have known what they were doing and what they were getting themselves into. Still, he gets 23 years in jail.

I personally would not date anyone less than 30, no matter how much they claim they know what they are doing.

The law requires consent and it requires communication. Some people have very bad communication skills.
 
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Diamond7

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And, if the life I "initiate", was forcibly put there by someone else against my will.... then what?
1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

I know a girl who was raped and had the baby. She even took her daughter to the prison to see her father. I respect her decision to give life to her daughter. Last I heard, they were doing fine. Her daughter graduated high school and was going to college and was doing fine.

If she were to kill her daughter she would still need to establish a relationship with that daughter in Heaven.

She had a twin sister and they use to try to help people. I did not know of her doing any actual dating. It was her sister that carried the anger about how she had been violated like that. She said she had an opportunity to leave and she did not leave. So she assumes some of the responsibility for what happened to her.

They were identical twins and sometimes I was embarrassed when I could not tell them apart. Even though they were two very different people.

If you think that girl has no right to live and that she should be terminated, then you and me are going to have issues. And I will fight to defend her life. But then this is a girl I know and the daughter of a very close friend of mine.
 
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SeventhFisherofMen

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Live Results: Raphael Warnock vs. Herschel Walker: Georgia US Senate election

Georgia Senate race too close to call, appears headed for a runoff

Luke 12 says those that know better - are held more accountable in the sight of God.

47 And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

But what about in politics?

Are "we" accountable for our vote in that case?

Some will say that the convenience of killing the baby outweighs the Lev 18 warning about killing babies. But some will know that is not a good case for doing it.

=======================

In the 2000s, Warnock was senior pastor at Douglas Memorial Community Church in Baltimore, Maryland.
.In 2005, Warnock became senior pastor of the Ebenezer Baptist Church in Atlanta, Georgia, Martin Luther King Jr.'s former congregation;

Although a Christian pastor Warnock promotes abortion on demand and provides no limits for it in his campaign.

Lev 18 says that killing babies is one of the "lines crossed" that God will judge even a pagan nation for engaging in.

In the mid 1800's democrats in the South struggled with understanding "The value of human life" and so they supported politics that endorsed slavery. So then some confusion among them regarding "The value of human life".

Warnock reminds us that confusion regarding "The value of human life" has not been fully resolved for some Christians.
the title reminds me of what that reptile at the beginning of the Bible said:

"Did God really say?..."
 
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Diamond7

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We have the right to defend ourselves against those whose intention is to do bodily harm.
We can defend ourselves without harming others. Even they teach you that in basic training. If you are under attack you can deflect that attack and get out of the way. Or you can turn it against them and let them harm themselves. That is a choice we make in how we defend ourselves.

Does anyone realize we have angels to defend us and deliver u from harm? Some people even have a whole army they command. Maybe people do not realize what we are given and have available to us. It is my job to defend my family. They would have to deal with me before they could even think about them.

Same for my wife. When my heart stopped it was up to her to revive and resuscitate me. If she had not done what she did, I would not be here now having this conversation.
 
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BobRyan

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1 Thessalonians 5:16-18
Rejoice always, pray continually, give thanks in all circumstances; for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus.

I know a girl who was raped and had the baby. She even took her daughter to the prison to see her father. I respect her decision to give life to her daughter. Last I heard, they were doing fine. Her daughter graduated high school and was going to college and was doing fine.

If she were to kill her daughter she would still need to establish a relationship with that daughter in Heaven.
If she had killed that daughter a month after she had been born she would be charged with murder.
If she had delivered that daughter 6 weeks early and then killed the child - still charged with murder in most states.
But if she had found a way to kill the daughter 6 weeks early without first giving birth -- pastor Warnock would be just fine with it as I understand it.
 
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BobRyan

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We have the right to defend ourselves against those whose intention is to do bodily harm.
Amen - and clearly unborn babies do not "intend to kill their mothers".
The good thing about modern science is that there are no cases where unborn babies are killing their mothers in America -- that does not mean that nothing at all can kill a pregnant mother... certainly there are pregnant mothers that die "of something" -- but it is not the case of a baby killing the mother if hospital facilities are available/used as far as I know.

So what is the solution for pro-abortion groups? MIX in the idea that babies aggravate pregnant mothers that are dying of something - where the pregnancy is simply not "helping" -- make that the statistic for babies killing mothers.
 
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