Is abortion analogous to taxation?

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I'd like to think it wouldn't happen, but I've seen organized pushes by these so-called "pro-life" groups to enforce abstinence-only programs as well as obstruct easy access to birth control. Many of us like to believe that "it can't happen here" but history proves otherwise when it comes to the lengths people will go to enforce their religious ideologies onto others. The U.S. is not immune.

My Dad: "Here you go. Your birth control pill. Proven to be 100% effective."
Sister: "But dad, this is just an aspirin."
My Dad: "Yeah. You are supposed to hold it between your knees. As long as that aspirin is there, you cannot get pregnant."
I love my dad.

 

[Sparagmos]

I don't expect anyone to hand out condoms. But nobody is banning contraceptives either (except for perhaps ultraconservative Catholics?). To suggest that is just plain fear mongering and a demonstration of complete ignorance of the pro-life position.

I didn’t say anything about banning contraceptives. We could talk about who is against distributing contraceptives to teenagers, but I’d rather talk about how to get pro-lifers to put their energy and resources into sex Ed and easy access to birth control. Countries that ban abortion have HIGHER abortion rates and countries with the most access to birth control and education have negligible abortion rates. So why are pro-lifers ignoring that data?

 

[tall73]

I don’t think that will happen but I totally agree as to the underlying motives. No pro-life groups that I am aware of are out there pushing for better sex education and easy access to birth control. They’re not even handing out condoms. If they were, I probably would never had gotten pregnant at 18 and had an abortion.

Please clarify. Were you aware that sex produced babies when you became pregnant at 18? I suppose it is possible you were not. I do think such basics should be covered at some point in school.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Countries that ban abortion have HIGHER abortion rates and countries with the most access to birth control and education have negligible abortion rates. So why are pro-lifers ignoring that data?

Citation please.

 

[Sparagmos]

Please clarify. Were you aware that sex produced babies when you became pregnant at 18? I suppose it is possible you were not. I do think such basics should be covered at some point in school.

I didn’t know how to get on birth control without my parents knowing and I didn’t know how to use a condom and was made to feel horribly embarrassed /ashamed about buying them anyway. My boyfriend told me pulling out works and I had never been told otherwise. If condoms were available at school, and I had been given a proper education, I am sure I would have used protection and avoided pregnancy.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Countries that ban abortion have HIGHER abortion rates and countries with the most access to birth control and education have negligible abortion rates. So why are pro-lifers ignoring that data?

Because this "Data" that you speak of isn't true. This article from the Charlotte Lozier Institute says differently.

"Conversely, good research from Eastern Europe where many countries changed their abortion policy after the fall of communism indicate that the incidence of abortion is sensitive to its legal status. Even modest limits on abortion resulted in significant declines in abortion rates. Furthermore, there is good evidence from the United States and Great Britain (Ashton et al. 1983) that abortion rates significantly increased in both countries after abortion was legalized. Furthermore, there is an impressive body of research which demonstrates that a range of incremental, state-level pro-life laws that have been enacted since the Roe v. Wade decision have reduced the incidence of abortion in the United States."

"There are several reasons why abortion rates increase when abortion becomes legal. Physicians who are willing to perform abortions can publicly advertise. The economic costs of obtaining an abortion decrease. There is some evidence that public support for legal abortion increases once abortion becomes legal. Additionally, when abortion becomes legal, sexual mores often change, resulting in more unintended pregnancies and more abortions. Overall, the existing academic research paints a very clear picture. Legal protections for unborn children reduce abortion rates and save lives."

How the Legal Status of Abortion Impacts Abortion Rates | Charlotte Lozier Institute

 

[tall73]

Experiences of sex ed do certainly vary in different states and even local areas, so I am trying to understand what happened.

I didn’t know how to get on birth control without my parents knowing

I am understanding this to mean the pill?

and I didn’t know how to use a condom and was made to feel horribly embarrassed /ashamed about buying them anyway.

So you did seem to know they existed, and their purpose, but not the details of how to use them? How did you learn about condoms and the birth control pill before this?

My boyfriend told me pulling out works and I had never been told otherwise.

It is unfortunate that he indicated this. Looking back do you think he also did not know, or was he just pressuring you?

 

[Sparagmos]

Citation please.

https://www.usnews.com/news/data-mi...1/abortion-rates-where-and-why-theyre-falling

Contraception in The Netherlands: the low abortion rate explained. - PubMed - NCBI

Abortion Worldwide 2017: Uneven Progress and Unequal Access

Abortion rates fell as countries made it legal and OK'd birth control

Access to free birth control reduces abortion rates | Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I didn’t know how to get on birth control without my parents knowing and I didn’t know how to use a condom and was made to feel horribly embarrassed /ashamed about buying them anyway. My boyfriend told me pulling out works and I had never been told otherwise. If condoms were available at school, and I had been given a proper education, I am sure I would have used protection and avoided pregnancy.

I hear holding an aspirin between your knees is 100% effective at preventing pregnancy. So my father says.

 

[Sparagmos]

Because this "Data" that you speak of isn't true. This article from the Charlotte Lozier Institute says differently.

"Conversely, good research from Eastern Europe where many countries changed their abortion policy after the fall of communism indicate that the incidence of abortion is sensitive to its legal status. Even modest limits on abortion resulted in significant declines in abortion rates. Furthermore, there is good evidence from the United States and Great Britain (Ashton et al. 1983) that abortion rates significantly increased in both countries after abortion was legalized. Furthermore, there is an impressive body of research which demonstrates that a range of incremental, state-level pro-life laws that have been enacted since the Roe v. Wade decision have reduced the incidence of abortion in the United States."

"There are several reasons why abortion rates increase when abortion becomes legal. Physicians who are willing to perform abortions can publicly advertise. The economic costs of obtaining an abortion decrease. There is some evidence that public support for legal abortion increases once abortion becomes legal. Additionally, when abortion becomes legal, sexual mores often change, resulting in more unintended pregnancies and more abortions. Overall, the existing academic research paints a very clear picture. Legal protections for unborn children reduce abortion rates and save lives."

How the Legal Status of Abortion Impacts Abortion Rates | Charlotte Lozier Institute

Sorry, there is a mountain of data that disproves the claims made by the Charlotte Lozier Institute, which grossly misrepresents the findings of the Gottmeir (sp) study, and cherry picks data to fit its narrative. Just look at which countries have the highest and lowest abortion rates -

“Switzerland had the lowest abortion rate at 5 per 1,000 women. The U.S. rate is 13 per 1,000 women, the same as Britain's, the report found. Colombia and Mexico had abortion rates of 34 per 1,000 women. Pakistan’s estimated abortion rate was the highest at 50 per 1,000 women.” - from NBC article I quoted below.

 

[Fantine]

One difference between abortion and taxation is that taxation applies to both genders--and abortion only applies to women.

I found this analogy which was posted on FB to be very informative. I always find it ironic that so many pro-birthers are avid, almost obsessive, about their right to own guns:

“How about we treat every young man who wants to buy a gun like every woman who wants to get an abortion — mandatory 48-hour waiting period, parental permission, a note from his doctor proving he understand what he’s about to do, a video he has to watch about the effects of gun violence, and an ultrasound wand up the [posterior] (just because). Let’s close down all but one gun shop in every state and make him travel hundreds of miles, take time off work, and stay overnight in a strange town to get a gun. Make him walk through a gauntlet of people holding photos of loved ones who were shot to death, people who call him a murderer and beg him not to buy a gun.”

In that scenario, I would be one of the people holding pictures. Are you really "pro-life?" Show me...

Let's treat men buying guns like women who get abortions - AMERICAblog News

 

[Sparagmos]

Experiences of sex ed do certainly vary in different states and even local areas, so I am trying to understand what happened.


I am understanding this to mean the pill?



So you did seem to know they existed, and their purpose, but not the details of how to use them? How did you learn about condoms and the birth control pill before this?


It is unfortunate that he indicated this. Looking back do you think he also did not know, or was he just pressuring you?

Sorry, it’s hard to quote on my tablet properly so bear with me..
1) yes, the pill.
2) yes, I knew they existed but had no education in how to use them or how effective/ important they were. I was taught that abstinence was the way to prevent pregnancy, period. It was a long time ago, LOL, but I probably learned about birth control from books I sneaked at the library (novels) and friends at school? I went to Christian schools and my parents were very conservative.
3)Hmmm, probably a bit of both. Clearly if our culture had taught him that you MUST use a condom he would have been more likely to do so. I don’t feel he took advantage of me in any way.

 

[tall73]

Sorry, it’s hard to quote on my tablet properly so bear with me..
1) yes, the pill.
2) yes, I knew they existed but had no education in how to use them or how effective/ important they were. I was taught that abstinence was the way to prevent pregnancy, period. It was a long time ago, LOL, but I probably learned about birth control from books I sneaked at the library (novels) and friends at school? I went to Christian schools and my parents were very conservative.
3)Hmmm, probably a bit of both. Clearly if our culture had taught him that you MUST use a condom he would have been more likely to do so. I don’t feel he took advantage of me in any way.

Understood, and I am sorry for your experience.

 

[Sparagmos]

Understood, and I am sorry for your experience.

Thanks for asking. It’s all OK, and it’s why I think we could drop the abortion rate by half if pro-lifers put all of their efforts into accessible birth control and better education.

 

[Allandavid]

I would be in favor of a law requiring "any person who causes an unlicensed female (whatever that is) to become pregnant" to pay a fine of 25% of their annual income but no less than $20,000 a year for no less than 18 years. I think that would help men to keep it in their pants.

They may not “keep it in their pants” any more than they have for hundreds of thousands of years. But, perhaps they might learn to “keep it in” a condom...!

 

[Allandavid]

And I think that the man who forced her into that position could be forced to castrate themselves.

Now go back to the image I posted. No such laws have ever been framed. The only laws proposed have had the purpose of either forcing the woman to reproduce, or to punish her...

 

[jayem]

Even from a scientific perspective, the baby is not part of the woman's body. It is its own body inside of the woman's body. I guess some could compare it to a parasite. You wouldn't call a leach "a part of your body" would you?

But a woman's uterus is part of her body. As is her heart, lungs, kidneys, and GI tract. All of which must work double-duty to support both her and a growing fetus. By what legal doctrine does the development of a fetus (which is not legally a person) override a woman's autonomy over her uterus and vital organs at all stages of pregnancy? I bolded that last phrase, because it segues to a reasonable solution. I don't support legal elective abortion at any time right up to delivery (meaning abortion not indicated for maternal or fetal health reasons.) I do support a compromise. Up to a certain point--let's say 24 weeks--abortion is left as a private medical decision between a pregnant woman and her doctor. After 24 weeks, states can restrict the procedure to life-threatening maternal health reasons only. This is a fair, reasonable, and workable compromise.

 

[Allandavid]

Does the man even have a right in society to say “no” I want my child born?

Of course he does....and a woman who is in any meaningful relationship would take his views into account.

But the final decision should rest with her...

 

[tall73]

Now go back to the image I posted. No such laws have ever been framed. The only laws proposed have had the purpose of either forcing the woman to reproduce, or to punish her...

There are states who have used chemical castration to punish rapists or sexual abusers, usually in the case of repeat offenders. The efficacy of such is debated.

castration of sex offenders

 

[Rubiks]

That's the next likely target on the list. Once abortions are legally banned everywhere, contraception will also be banned, since the goal and motive isn't truly to reduce abortions (as keeping them safe and legal happens to do just that), but to control people's (especially women's) behavior.

I was under the impression only Catholics were against contraception.