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Frankly, I do not see any love on either side of this dang fool debate.
I see a lot of sarcasm, I see a lot of accusations, I see a lot of "bear traps"...and I a lot of "holier than thou" behavior.
Every now and then, I see outright lies intended to blind the other side to the real issue.
I see misquoted verses taken out of context...a lot of that...
And I see a lot of self righteousness.
I see two "camps"...each one patting each other on the back when a "score" is made. I'll bet folks are gathering "reps" by the ton in here, but they certainly are not earned reps.
What I see sickens me to my heart...which is why I'm trying so hard to reach both sides with Christ's true gospel...which is love.
I'm beginning to think it's a wasted effort...am I casting pearls before swine, here?
Please tell me that I am not!!!
BR, I'm I suppose to respond about your signature in every thread?
The huge issue is none of these Sunday sources we see are advocating a true Saturday Sabbath
which means using them only confuses things
I contend that Christians who do things half wrong (half right too) are not an example for "doing right" on any account, but instead an example of doing wrong.
We should c&p each time this comes up by him. He thinks if he hammers long enough we will submit to that lie. What he is doing is called spamming.
You can't have it both ways either they support the Sabbath or they don't and if they do support it then you should not have any problem with them keeping it on Sunday the way they do. The fact is that changing things to suit yourself doesn't support anything if it is done wrong enough for those who do support it to condemn you for it. You condemn all "Sunday Keepers" so the fact is calling it "keeping the Sabbath" or not is irrelevant to the fact that I have seen you and other SDA and other Sabbath promoters group them all together as wrong. Now you say some of them are partially right and side with them? This is a laughable argument. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day do you agree with one of those too as the correct time?yes they do from Eden to the cross. Read the OP details and you will see.
Point 7 is their "edit/change" the Law of God argument - and then "retain all Ten Commandments" -- something you reject. And the OP says I reject it as well because there can be no "edit".
I differ with them on 1 of their 7 - you differ with all 7.
So no way to blame it all on SDAs.
My argument isn't anti-Sabbath at all, the pro-Grace crowd doesn't condemn folks for their (voluntary) keeping of the Saturday Sabbath just like we don't condemn those who claim to "keep" Sunday as a Sabbath or not (in your words). If anything we are less what you consider "anti-Sabbath" than you are anti-grace because grace allows one to decide and doesn't make it contingent upon salvation while Sabbath keepers here argue such that Sabbath Keeping is far from a personal choice but rather a mandate for all Christians.On the contrary it clearly points out that the anti-Sabbath arguments on this area of the board conflict not only with seventh day Sabbath keeping Christians - they also fly in the face of the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship on this subject.
"inconvenient" maybe - but not "confusing things".
My opposition is to your blatant abuse of the writings of those people mentioned and your turning a blind eye to any arguments that logically refute them plus your playing both sides of the fence here in that in one instance you claim these people support a Saturday Sabbath then in another instance you group them in with those who do not support a Saturday Sabbath and condemn them. The fact of the matter is truly in your eyes they are wrong and condemned. Being half wrong you don't condemn them less that other "Sunday Keepers". I claim the stopped clock is your standard of truth in the matter.Your opposition to the majority of the pro-sunday Christians scholarship "noted".
My point is that you cannot blame all that on SDAs.
in Christ,
Bob
"Angel get off that soapbox and get back into the house." I'm sorry to say, but If you're nuetral in these debates it's because you dont know what to believe.Frankly, I do not see any love on either side of this dang fool debate.
I see a lot of sarcasm, I see a lot of accusations, I see a lot of "bear traps"...and I a lot of "holier than thou" behavior.
Every now and then, I see outright lies intended to blind the other side to the real issue.
I see misquoted verses taken out of context...a lot of that...
And I see a lot of self righteousness.
I see two "camps"...each one patting each other on the back when a "score" is made. I'll bet folks are gathering "reps" by the ton in here, but they certainly are not earned reps.
What I see sickens me to my heart...which is why I'm trying so hard to reach both sides with Christ's true gospel...which is love.
I'm beginning to think it's a wasted effort...am I casting pearls before swine, here?
Please tell me that I am not!!!
Please, Heavenly Father, help us all here to get closer to YOU!
Help us all to stop trying to be "right" no matter what it takes,
and help us instead to honestly search for YOUR truth.
Amen.
"Angel get off that soapbox and get back into the house." I'm sorry to say, but If you're nuetral in these debates it's because you dont know what to believe.
This side of the forum is to discuss issues that rubs. (Sabbath and the Law)
When one side intentionally misrepresent what the other side of an argument is saying, it does create the kind animousity you're talking about.
You're prime suspect #1 and I have the scars to prove it. You've ran off many in the grace camp with your crybabythug style.
For years BobRyan, Listed, Shinshon, and many others have been here at GT going in circles with dialog.
Now here you come laying the smackdown on the grace camp.
The truth is, if you articulated what we're saying, this place would be different. If you claim that someone is taking something out of context, why not post their comment next to the scripture so we can all be edified.
You must have missed the dialog I recently had with one of the sabbatarians...a gentleman who calls himself "Elder111" in another thread.
Yes, I am "neutral", in that I think both sides are full of cow patties.
I dont buy that,,,, I've been here from the start....these posters dont complain to the Mods. Only you hon.What gets me is how both sides will lay traps for the other...trying to get a rise out of them, so that they can report their misbehavior when they respond.
Angel you dish it out but you get blown to bit when I joke with you. I really mean to entertain rather than to insult. ... Sheeeze, I look bad, bad dog, bad dog.Like you are doing now, talking about my "crybabythug style".
This is not Christian behavior, no matter what day you go to church.
Yes mamWhether you're a Sunday Christian or a "sabbatarian", if you mistreat other people...and especially your own brothers and sisters in the faith!...then you are disobeying Christ's very clear commandment to love one another as He loves us.
Joh 13:34A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Joh 13:35By this shall allmenknow that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another
I see there where He says that men will know His disciples by their love.
Are you His disciple?
If you say "yes", then I will ask you where is your love?
Yes, and I hope that I might "run off" everyone who uses such tactics...because you don't make your point by belittling and mocking someone who disagrees with you. It is wrong, and mature Christians ought to know better than to sink to such low behavior.
you are funny
I dont buy that,,,, I've been here from the start....these posters dont complain to the Mods. Only you hon.
Angel you dish it out but you get blown to bit when I joke with you. I really mean to entertain rather than to insult. ... Sheeeze, I look bad, bad dog, bad dog.)
Yes mamhmmm (full of cow patties huh?...Well that's now unfunny and reclassified as a mighty low insult too )
I wonder how many people realize that it was the Catholic church that changed the Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday?
Not that it matters a tick. .
The huge issue is none of these Sunday sources we see are advocating a true Saturday Sabbath
On the contrary it clearly points out that the anti-Sabbath arguments on this area of the board conflict not only with seventh day Sabbath keeping Christians - they also fly in the face of the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship on this subject.which means using them only confuses things
Your opposition to the majority of the pro-sunday Christians scholarship "noted".I contend that Christians who do things half wrong (half right too) are not an example for "doing right" on any account, but instead an example of doing wrong.
You can't have it both ways either they support the Sabbath or they don't
and if they do support it then you should not have any problem with them keeping it on Sunday the way they do.
Now you say some of them are partially right
Even a stopped clock is right twice a day do you agree with one of those too as the correct time?
My argument isn't anti-Sabbath at all,
The pro-sunday groups listed in the OP would consider themselves in the "pro-grace crowd" (for the most part) and would still argue that it is a sin to break the Sabbath Commandment as it is binding on all mankind (in their words) not just on the saints.... from Eden to this very day.the pro-Grace crowd doesn't condemn folks for their (voluntary) keeping of the Saturday Sabbath
That is a false accusation - and you provide no evidence at all in support of it.My opposition is to your blatant abuse of the writings of those people mentioned
1. They say they support Saturday Sabbath for all mankind from Eden to the cross. I have the actual data, evidence, proof of that fact.and your turning a blind eye to any arguments that logically refute them plus your playing both sides of the fence here in that in one instance you claim these people support a Saturday Sabbath
They themselves argue for point 7 in the OP which even you oppose.then in another instance you group them in with those who do not support a Saturday Sabbath
If you claim that someone is taking something out of context, why not post their comment next to the scripture so we can all be edified.
BobRyan said:Here is an example of claims made by the pro-Sunday sources - and 6 of the 7 are actually correct according to the Bible!.
Yes that is right - 6 of the 7 are actually common ground between Sabbath keeping and Sunday keeping Christians.
1. That the Sabbath Commandment is first given to mankind in Gen 2:1-3
When someone begin a thread with a big lie,
It was already stated that you would oppose their 7 points while I oppose only one of them.I really don't care what your scholars have to say on a matter
SDA scholars often argue that because God blessed and sanctified the seventh day, from that time the Sabbath was kept. Now, you're telling us that A Sabbath commandment was given to mankind per Gen 2:1-3? Where's you evidence of that.
So true, but data can be manipulated to present questionable evidence as proof. Where should we look to find out where Sabbath and the ten commandments were first given?When someone posts false accusation after false accusation you can tell because they offer no data, no evidence, no proof... they just repeat the empty false accusation.
The whole point of the OP was to compare the majority of even pro-sunday scholarship on their 7 points to the various anti-Sabbath vs pro-Sabbath views here.
It was already stated that you would oppose their 7 points while I oppose only one of them.
Therefore you proved your own false accusation to be false.
How can that satisfy you??
Why keep doing it??
Dude, say whatever you like......In the OP I tell you that even the majority of pro-Sunday scholarship agrees with that basic Bible point. Thus your "attempt" to reduce it to "SDA scholars" alone was debunked post #1. (no wonder you are so anxious to avoid the point of the OP)
Christ affirms it in Mark 2:27.
God affirms it in Ex 20:11.
And it is explicitly for "all mankind" as even the OT shows in Is 66:23.
Therefore not only are the saturday Sabbath people right on this point - but even the majority of pro-sunday scholarship "get the point".
While (as stated in the OP) those at war with God's Sabbath commandment oppose all 7 of those points.
in Christ,
Bob
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