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Nice change.Paul addresses the saved vs the lost. Just as he did in Romans 6 and 7 and 2 and 1 and....
I did not say nor suggest that.Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Paul does not say that to keep the Law as a Christian does not mean that you must first never have sinned.
If you post to me "your pro-sunday scholars again I will report you as flaming me. They are not mine and you can quit putting words in my mouth. You continue to violate the 9th commandment in bearing false witness about another. You want us to think of you as credible. humpf!that would be nonsensical.
Read the text again.
They are "your pro-sunday scholars" -- all mine are pro-Saturday. MoreCoffee knows this as well about my "scholars".
in Christ,
Bob
Scholars tend to reflect their church's theology. If they differ too radically from it then they get kicked out. Catholic scholars have great latitude granted to them. However it is not scholars who decide what the church teaches.
Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Here Paul is very clear that it is only those who are "hostile toward God" that 'do not; and "are not even able" to keep the law of God.
Heb 11 "without faith it is impossible to please God"
The factual evidence available to everyone is that even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law. In fact every witnesses this in themselves except the deceived following an amended keepable law.
Paul agrees that there is one group in that two group list in Rom 8:5-8 unnable to keep the Law of God. I too have agreed that such a group exists. And in Romans 6 Paul makes it clear that the one stuck in that mode - is not the servant of righteousness.
Paul claims that a person is a slave of the one they actually obey -- in Romans 6.
So then Romans 6 and 8 are in perfect agreement.
And so would most of even the pro-sunday scholars mentioned in the OP agree.
No Paul is talking about the old nature that is dead, yet lives.
Even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law and never sin.
.Your pro-Sunday scholars are mixed up spouting things that make their living and not necessarily the truth.
Nice change.I did not say nor suggest that.... humpf!
At this point maybe I should say it is OK for you to attack pro grace people ant their position because you are way to busy with your agenda to listen to anything.Paul addresses the saved vs the lost. Just as he did in Romans 6 and 7 and 2 and 1 and....
Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Paul does not say that to keep the Law as a Christian does not mean that you must first never have sinned.
that would be nonsensical.
Read the text again.
They are " pro-sunday scholars" -- all mine are pro-Saturday. MoreCoffee knows this as well about my "scholars".
your humpf response to the details above -- noted.
sad.
in Christ,
Bob
If your argument is that the majority of Catholic Scholars oppose Dies Domini on the subject of the Sabbath Commandment details as given in the OP -- let us know how you know that.Scholars tend to reflect their church's theology. If they differ too radically from it then they get kicked out. Catholic scholars have great latitude granted to them. However it is not scholars who decide what the church teaches. For what the Catholic Church teaches go to Catholic councils and dogmatic statements ratified by the bishop of Rome. For Catholic teaching about the law go to the Catechism of the Catholic Church. See pages 496 to 612. But for a short general comment on Christians and law see pages 477 to 480. Just three short pages. They say this:
The New Law or the Law of the Gospel
1965 The New Law or the Law of the Gospel is the perfection here on earth of the divine law, natural and revealed. It is the work of Christ and is expressed particularly in the Sermon on the Mount. It is also the work of the Holy Spirit and through him it becomes the interior law of charity: I will establish a New Covenant with the house of Israel.... I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
1966 The New Law is the grace of the Holy Spirit given to the faithful through faith in Christ. It works through charity; it uses the Sermon on the Mount to teach us what must be done and makes use of the sacraments to give us the grace to do it:
If anyone should meditate with devotion and perspicacity on the sermon our Lord gave on the mount, as we read in the Gospel of Saint Matthew, he will doubtless find there... the perfect way of the Christian life.... This sermon contains... all the precepts needed to shape ones life.1967 The Law of the Gospel fulfils, refines, surpasses, and leads the Old Law to its perfection. In the Beatitudes, the New Law fulfils the divine promises by elevating and orienting them toward the kingdom of heaven. It is addressed to those open to accepting this new hope with faiththe poor, the humble, the afflicted, the pure of heart, those persecuted on account of Christand so marks out the surprising ways of the Kingdom.
1968 The Law of the Gospel fulfils the commandments of the Law. The Lords Sermon on the Mount, far from abolishing or devaluing the moral prescriptions of the Old Law, releases their hidden potential and has new demands arise from them: it reveals their entire divine and human truth. It does not add new external precepts, but proceeds to reform the heart, the root of human acts, where man chooses between the pure and the impure, where faith, hope, and charity are formed and with them the other virtues. The Gospel thus brings the Law to its fullness through imitation of the perfection of the heavenly Father, through forgiveness of enemies and prayer for persecutors, in emulation of the divine generosity.
1969 The New Law practices the acts of religion: almsgiving, prayer and fasting, directing them to the Father who sees in secret, in contrast with the desire to be seen by men. Its prayer is the Our Father.
1970 The Law of the Gospel requires us to make the decisive choice between the two ways and to put into practice the words of the Lord. It is summed up in the Golden Rule, Whatever you wish that men would do to you, do so to them; this is the law and the prophets.
The entire Law of the Gospel is contained in the new commandment of Jesus, to love one another as he has loved us.
1971 To the Lords Sermon on the Mount it is fitting to add the moral catechesis of the apostolic teachings, such as Romans 12-15, 1 Corinthians 12-13, Colossians 3-4, Ephesians 4-5, etc. This doctrine hands on the Lords teaching with the authority of the apostles, particularly in the presentation of the virtues that flow from faith in Christ and are animated by charity, the principal gift of the Holy Spirit. Let charity be genuine.... Love one another with brotherly affection.... Rejoice in your hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer. Contribute to the needs of the saints, practice hospitality. This catechesis also teaches us to deal with cases of conscience in the light of our relationship to Christ and to the Church.
1972 The New Law is called a law of love because it makes us act out of the love infused by the Holy Spirit, rather than from fear; a law of grace, because it confers the strength of grace to act, by means of faith and the sacraments; a law of freedom, because it sets us free from the ritual and juridical observances of the Old Law, inclines us to act spontaneously by the prompting of charity and, finally, lets us pass from the condition of a servant who does not know what his master is doing to that of a friend of Christ For all that I have heard from my Father I have made known to youor even to the status of son and heir.
1973 Besides its precepts, the New Law also includes the evangelical counsels. The traditional distinction between Gods commandments and the evangelical counsels is drawn in relation to charity, the perfection of Christian life. The precepts are intended to remove whatever is incompatible with charity. The aim of the counsels is to remove whatever might hinder the development of charity, even if it is not contrary to it.
1974 The evangelical counsels manifest the living fullness of charity, which is never satisfied with not giving more. They attest its vitality and call forth our spiritual readiness. The perfection of the New Law consists essentially in the precepts of love of God and neighbour. The counsels point out the more direct ways, the readier means, and are to be practised in keeping with the vocation of each:
[God] does not want each person to keep all the counsels, but only those appropriate to the diversity of persons, times, opportunities, and strengths, as charity requires; for it is charity, as queen of all virtues, all commandments, all counsels, and, in short, of all laws and all Christian actions, that gives to all of them their rank, order, time, and value.
Until then I am going with the 'majority of pro-sunday scholars' statement.
in Christ,
Bob
The main reason I do not buy into your reasoning is the resized pronoun it. If the text said them I might have a problem.Paul addresses the saved vs the lost. Just as he did in Romans 6 and 7 and 2 and 1 and....
Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Maybe you skipped over the CCC sections that I posted?
[/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT="]Dies Domini pt 11 [/FONT]
[FONT="]"the rest of the Sabbath..discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship which God wants to establish with the creature made in his image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love".[/FONT]
[FONT="] [/FONT]
[FONT="] Dies Domini pt 13 -[/FONT]
[FONT="]"the Sabbath ...is therefore rooted in the depths of God's plan. This is why unlike many other laws - it is not within the context of strictly cultic (Jewish) stipulations but within the Decalogue the "ten words" which represent the very pillars of moral life inscribed on the human heart!! In setting this commandment within the context of the basic structure of ethics, Israel and then the church declare that they consider it not just a matter of community religious discipline but a defining and indelible expression of our relationship to God, announced and expounded by biblical revelations.[/FONT]
[FONT="]
[/FONT]
[/FONT][FONT="]Dies Domini pt 11 "if the first page of the book of Genesis presents God's work as an example for man, the same is true of God's rest - on the seventh day God finished his work which he had done therefore God blessed the seventh day and made it holy...it is a gaze which God casts upon all things, but in a special way upon man, the crown
of creation. It is a gaze which already discloses something of the nuptial shape of the relationship God wants to establish with the creature made in his own image, by calling that creature to enter a pact of love."[/FONT]
[FONT="]
A bit wordy...Maybe you skipped over the CCC sections that I posted?
Those are not pagans. Sorry. Paul is contrasting the forces we face in our lives.For those who are according to the flesh set their minds
No doubt. But that explains why your replies are irrelevant to the topic.
Those are not pagans. Sorry. Paul is contrasting the forces we face in our lives.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion.Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God
They are the unsaved. That includes but is not limited to pagans.
He does not say "some part of us is hostile to God" rather nor does Rom 8:1-5 say "there is no condemnation for some part of us" nor "in part of us who do not walk after the flesh" -
And in Romans 6 he also affirms this with the point that you are the true servant of the one you actually obey.
You are eisegeting where you could just leave the text as it - and it would work as it reads.
in Christ,
Bob
Until you read the OP and the Dies Domini article quoted... [/FONT]
One cannot have much confidence in the interpretation offered by your posts of the document you've quoted
I have included a number of quotes from the Catholic Catechism verbatim.from since you've stated that a few hundred words from the Catechism of the Catholic Church are too much to bother reading.
You "quoted" and you did not offer any idea of the point you thought it was making.Dies Domini is much longer that the section from the CCC that I quoted.
I have no intention of posting the entire Dies Domini document.Have you read the entire content of Dies Domini?
Most likely not. Like everything else including the Scripture it is quote mined and probably from someone else. He is probably using at least 2d hand quotes.I asked, BobRyan, if you had read the entire content of Dies Domini but you did not answer. I did not ask if you posted all of it or intended to post all of it.
You mean reading through those special Switzerland cheese makers reading glasses.Most likely not. Like everything else including the Scripture it is quote mined and probably from someone else. He is probably using at least 2d hand quotes.
You mean reading through those special Switzerland cheese makers reading glasses.
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