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So the gaps are religious related. Now tell me what gap I have not closed. Essentially you will not give up until you can declare victory and cause me to renounce my salvation by accepting your umm..... Fat Chance is out of town and said he would not return. Even Rev Chance at the local Baptist church left - literally. The name just cracked me up every time I passed the sign.In the OP I show that there are 7 foundational points in the discussion and there is a significant difference on 1 of the 7.
But for a few - they will differ with all 7 of the points - placing their POV essentially against everyone on both sides of the question ... which is not a truly representative gap in terms of the main point of difference.
As long as they "object to everything" then both the Sunday and the Saturday keeping groups will find that that group hold to non-biblical views.
Everyone here claims to be "pro grace" on both sides of the question.
And the 7 point list is immediately rejected entirely by one group and immediately accepted by another.
Turns out it is the majority of pro-sunday Scholarship that accepts it.
And pretty much all of the Saturday keeping christians accept 6 out of the 7 points.
This is just a fact of the subject matter.
Nonspecifics again.
I give you specifics - documents, denominations and even posters on here who are sunday keeping and whose documents affirm all 7 points in the list.
Details matter.
In Christ,
Bob
No.Paul says in 1Cor 6 that the church members lose salvation when they go against the Law of God and he gives specifics.
Again no.Paul argues against the idea of downsizing the Ten Commandments and even the majority of pro-sunday scholars admit to this.
heheThat is why Paul can insist that "what matters is keeping the commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.
Then you must be claiming Paul argues for the Sabbath as an obligation of the Christian. Where is this?Paul never argues against the Sabbath Commandment.
Are you accusing me of lying? What about the 9th commandment? I am acquainted with the accuser of the brethren.In the stories you tell we may find that idea -- but not in real life.
I am pretty sure that has been done by a few people here. Some of them still post currently.The doctrinal statements of Seventh-day Adventists are online and free to all. If you think you have a point in that regard - quote something.
The factual evidence available to everyone is that even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law. In fact every witnesses this in themselves except the deceived following an amended keepable law.in Rom 8:5-8 Paul contrasts those who are able to keep God's law with those who are not.
You have to be careful not to actually quote the text when you say that.
When we look at the actual Word of God - we do see Paul talking aboujt the "Law of God" -- in Rom 8:5-8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Heb 11 "without faith it is impossible to please God"
In the Catholic Church -- is it a mortal sin or a venial sin to skip mass and not keep the Sabbath Commandment?
I agree with those who say that the lost are never told to keep the Ten Commandments so as to be saved. And this point gets raised on this section of the board all the time.
But at the same time - the New Covenant writes the moral law of God on the heart - and we are brought in line with it - rather than tossing it under a bus.
in Christ,
Bob
The factual evidence available to everyone is that even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law. In fact every witnesses this in themselves except the deceived following an amended keepable law.
Missing all of the available Sunday masses is not a sin if you have some reason for doing so, such as being ill, caring for somebody who is ill, or distance making it impractical to attend etcetera but doing so because you deliberately wanted to avoid mass may be a sin. I refer you to Hebrews 10:24-27 GNB(24) Let us be concerned for one another, to help one another to show love and to do good.
(25) Let us not give up the habit of meeting together, as some are doing. Instead, let us encourage one another all the more, since you see that the Day of the Lord is coming nearer.
(26) For there is no longer any sacrifice that will take away sins if we purposely go on sinning after the truth has been made known to us.
(27) Instead, all that is left is to wait in fear for the coming Judgment and the fierce fire which will destroy those who oppose God!
No.Again no.heheThen you must be claiming Paul argues for the Sabbath as an obligation of the Christian.
Where is this?
I am pretty sure that has been done by a few people here. Some of them still post currently.
So the gaps are religious related. Now what me what gap I have not closed. Essentially you will not give up until you can declare victory and cause me to renounce my salvation
So then keeping the commandments of God are not a means of earning salvation - yet the saints are called to do that very thing - obedience and not rebellion.
In fact 1 John 5:1-4 argues that this is the heart and soul of loving God and loving the people of God.
in Christ,
Bob
Yes, obedience is better than sacrifice, as the old covenant scriptures say (1 Samuel 15:22) and that principle remains true today. Yet it is by grace that we are saved through faith for the purpose of doing the good works to which God has called the faithful, thus the faithful seek to obey God because God's grace enables them to do so and all that I have written amounts to saying that goodness matters a great deal; the man or woman who acts upon the faith delivered once and for all time to the faithful will live because of that faith. Therefore one's good works done out of faith by means of grace yield the peace filled fruit of salvation.
I understand what you have written and have a similar understanding regarding goodness and the avoidance of sins and I fully acknowledge that both goodness and avoiding sin are graces from God. It is important to always be sure that every explanation of the gospel that passes one's lips is true to the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ. No admixture of human effort originated obedience can be present in it. All is of grace and grace bears its fruit in the obedience of faith.
Since we seem to differ on a great many things I feel constrained to post ... agreed!
And this is reason to be careful when attributing a position to me that one not quote what others might wish or imagine my position to be - but quote me.
And I will try to remember to do the same for you.
No Paul is talking about the old nature that is dead, yet lives. Paul does not address pagans in any of his letters. I also do not recall Paul talking about pagans in in them. I fully understand how that seems to be a contradiction to you. But another favorite of mine is Rom 12 about the living sacrifice. The sacrifice (old man) continues to crawl off of the altar. James talks about how this happens. John talks about how to deal with it.Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Here Paul is very clear that it is only those who are "hostile toward God" that 'do not; and "are not even able" to keep the law of God.
Even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law and never sin. If this is wrong present anyone ever accomplishing this incredible feat except Jesus. You can not name a single successful individual in last 2,000 years or even the entire history of the planet. Yet the Scripture says some are righteous even while it is recorded they sin. Righteousness is apart from the law as Paul says. His testimony is that his righteousness is not from his own efforts/activity. You claim otherwise. Now you will probably say where is your Scripture proof. I will tell you it has already been quoted and referenced to you and thrown in the trash. I see no need to repeat what you will not accept.Heb 11 "without faith it is impossible to please God"
No you are splitting a complete person into 2 individuals. In case you have not heard there is a war going on with the old nature. No Paul is not doing that in Romans 6.Paul agrees that there is one group in that two group list in Rom 8:5-8 unnable to keep the Law of God. I too have agreed that such a group exists. And in Romans 6 Paul makes it clear that the one stuck in that mode - is not the servant of righteousness.
Tell do you sin? Are you then a salve of sin? I would say it depends on your life style.[/quote]Paul claims that a person is a slave of the one they actually obey -- in Romans 6.
Your pro-Sunday scholars are mixed up spouting things that make their living and not necessarily the truth.And so would most of even the pro-sunday scholars mentioned in the OP agree.
in Christ,
Bob
No, you are calling the saints back to the OC. The real issue is you want to avoid sin and think by doing so you are righteous. Does not hold water if 1 reads the Scripture. The commandments John is talking about are outlined in 1 Jn 3:23 and Jn 15:10. These commandments are the famous 10 Cs.So then keeping the commandments of God are not a means of earning salvation - yet the saints are called to do that very thing - obedience and not rebellion.
In fact 1 John 5:1-4 argues that this is the heart and soul of loving God and loving the people of God.
in Christ,
Bob
Your quoted passages do not mean the same thing to me, they do to you. Your intended meaning has them out of context and lying.As do even the pro-sunday scholars in the OP.
"There REMAINS therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4.
"What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.
"Do we then make void the LAW of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31.
No the record bears witness against you. You continue to pretend yesterday never existed.hmm so then "yet again" you have an accusation without a shred of fact to back it up??? really??
Romans 8
5 For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7 because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Here Paul is very clear that it is only those who are "hostile toward God" that 'do not; and "are not even able" to keep the law of God.
Heb 11 "without faith it is impossible to please God"
The factual evidence available to everyone is that even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law. In fact every witnesses this in themselves except the deceived following an amended keepable law.
Paul agrees that there is one group in that two group list in Rom 8:5-8 unnable to keep the Law of God. I too have agreed that such a group exists. And in Romans 6 Paul makes it clear that the one stuck in that mode - is not the servant of righteousness.
Paul claims that a person is a slave of the one they actually obey -- in Romans 6.
So then Romans 6 and 8 are in perfect agreement.
And so would most of even the pro-sunday scholars mentioned in the OP agree.
No Paul is talking about the old nature that is dead, yet lives.
Even with faith 1 is not able to keep the law and never sin.
.Your pro-Sunday scholars are mixed up spouting things that make their living and not necessarily the truth.
...
They are "your pro-sunday scholars" -- all mine are pro-Saturday. MoreCoffee knows this as well about my "scholars".
in Christ,
Bob
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