Iran...

[dvd_holc]

"Do you know that 50% of America feels the exact same way...they are sick and tired of religous fanatics trying to take over everything and sucumvent the constitution and laws of the land.

The reality is the vast majority of Iran supports the government. More then Americans support the current American government."

Are you from Iran?

 

[dvd_holc]

"No they want the Palestinians to have it because that is who it belonged to for thousands of years before we decided to give it to someone else. Why because we felt bad we had not helped them when Other Europeans wanted to wipe them out. But that is not the point here."

Really? It was not Isreal who had it? It was not God who gave it to them? It was not God who took from them? It was not God who gave it back to them? It was not God who made the Gaza farms become 15% of Israel's agricultural exports.

"Ma'yan Yadai, a 27-year-old mother of two who was thrown out of Gush Katif - she was originally a Croatian Catholic who converted to Judaism, fled Yugoslavia, and moved to Netzer Hazani - spoke about Gush Katif before a gathering of the National Council of Young Israel in New York recently. She said,
"It is difficult for me to believe that this obviously blessed area is the very same area that our Moslem neighbors called the ‘cursed land’ of El G’erara. They have told me that nobody lived in this area from the time that the last Jews left because there was not enough rain, and nothing could grow properly. They were happy when the Jews returned because the rain started again, and the land began to produce.""

and now, "After years of producing bug-free lettuce and other vegetables for Jewish farmers, the sands of Gaza have reverted to their old ways. PA farmers report failure in keeping the bugs away."

Yes, the Hand of God is with Isreal.

 

[dvd_holc]

"What gives anyone the right to say we can have this weapon and you can not."Those how have it don't have to share. They give up the good part which would be creating the kind of plant that does not produce death, but the part that says it should allow the whole Earth to have nukes.
Can a person come a car manufacture who produces car for a limited consumer and take the blue prints then copy them to for themselves? What if this car was the number one product of the manufacture? What if this car had the ability the change lives of millions of people? Is it right? No, it is stealing. But in case and fact we have not used nuclear weapons on anyone since Japan. We have not used them in the case of Iran. We don't need them. We have a bigger and worst army.

"In addition can you please name a government that Iran has overthrown or Invaded."

I assume you mean the current adminstration. Also, I guess you don't care that they have support terrorist who have attacked global communities. Since 9/11, the viewpoint on which America and others look at how we let others be has changed.

 

[bertie]

 

[Yekcidmij]

It makes little difference what we say or do.The Govt of the US seems determined to spread democracy like a plague,around the globe.The reason for the altruistic sharing of our form of Govt. is pretty much evident in the way we have dominated,economically,every trading partner that is not big enough to demand fair treatment of its industries,aaand farmers, or protect them by tarriffs and trade law.
Every country we trade with either goes along with policy or gets the shaft sooner than later.We demand that they purchase our technology,and weapons,our way of life,at great cost to the poor and oppressed ,while those who are in the drivers seat get huge kick-backs,bribes,and payoffs.
The third world doesnt have a snowballs chance in a sauna of maximizing progress for the good of the population.They are forced into buying the goods and services we say they can have......at prices that they really cant afford.

This doesnt sound like eschatology, it sounds more like a political rant.

 

[bertie]

anything to please the US navy.......

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Quote
"What gives anyone the right to say we can have this weapon and you can not."Those how have it don't have to share. They give up the good part which would be creating the kind of plant that does not produce death, but the part that says it should allow the whole Earth to have nukes.
End Quote


Iran is not asking the US to share…………….. it wants to develop the TEch itself. That is where the issue lies. America feels it should be the only one with Nukes. That way it can use its dominant conventional forces to push everyone else around and make them do what we want.


Quote
I assume you mean the current administration. Also, I guess you don't care that they have support terrorist who have attacked global communities. Since 9/11, the viewpoint on which America and others look at how we let others be has changed.
End Quote

Says who the CIA the Bush Administration.................please like we should believe that pack of liars. Provide proof that they have supported any terrorist act. Or killed civilians in another country.

As far as 911.......who funded Bindy ...who built him all those bunkers in Afghanistan.................It sure wasn't Iran.

It was the US and the Saudi Arabia. Since 90% of the hijackers were Saudis funded by Saudis should we have not invaded Saudi Arabia......................Oh No we can't do that How would Bush and Cheeney make all their money.

While the Taliban were in Afghanistan there was not one drop of heroin exported ...........and Now that the CIA is Back it is flowing like a river.

So who is benefiting from all of this war and death ...the American people..........PLEASE we are closer then ever to having a nuke blow up one of our cities......................and it won't be made in Iran either it will have been bought from the Russian black Market with donations from Saudi princes and kept active by Pakistani scientists.

Perhaps if we just packed up and left the Arab Nations alone and left Israel to fend for itself we would not have Arabs blowing up our buildings..........................AHHHH no that is just tooo obvious.

It is time to heed the advice of the Founding Fathers and stay out of everyone else’s business.

Like I said even if Iran gets a nuke they will not use it .............................they know what would happen if they did.

By the way speaking of illegal Nuke countries perhaps it is time to go into israel and take away their nukes. After all they stole our blueprints used our money to build them.

 

[bertie]

That would be a frosty friday in telaviv!the Isrealis have,(one more time)between 200 and 400 nuclear weapons in their WMD locker.(current available itelligence estimates.)
They will not hesitate to use them if they feel their survival is threatened.They have not shrunk from other pre-emptive actions in the past,and show no proclivity to change that policy.Osirak-lebanon-the wall-missle assassinations of hamas leaders.etc.
Nobody is going to divest them of their arsenal, without first tasting the fruits therof.
The US may be the big kid on the block,but for them to enter Isreali territory to remove these weapons by force of arms would be suicidal.
The Isrealis are armed with the very best that America has to offer.The US would then be on the buisness end of some of its own most advanced weapons systems,in the hands of expert and courageous Jews.Who would be fighting with a deternination unequaled by any of the enemies the US has engaged in the past.The concept is a no starter.
What has occured in terms of a nuclear Isreal is now a fait-acomple*sic.The advantage that this affords Isreal is not one that they will relenquish without a fight.(osirak-Iraq)and one that they guard most jealously.
The Iranians are playing a very deep game of chicken with us,and they misread the determination of the Isrealis, if they believe that their progress towards nuclear weapons will not be actively opposed by the Jews.Unilaterally,if nessessary..........

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi Bertie

i agree that is just what would Happen.

But Israel is in for a big surprise if they think bombing Iran will be as easy as bombing Iraq.

Even if they succeed I believe Iran would declare war on Israel and they would have every right to.

In addition Pakistan has said it will back Iran if it is attacked so Iran may get nukes from them. They have nukes and delivery systems so Iran will not be Iraq in any way shape of form

 

[Yekcidmij]

anything to please the US navy.......

Im not sure what that means, but Im pretty sure it's uncalled for.

 

[bertie]

you reminded me one small sentence on iran was needed to qualify my post as legal.I removed it per your protest.was said tongue in cheek after all you have all the cruise missles........how pertinent is that?-
Meantime,The pakis are in bed with the US,they are in large dependant on the relationship which they have with the bush regime.I dont think they would step in the s$$t with the US over a few Irani reactors if the action were limited to air strikes.remember the afghani opium crop.....
The Iranis, though beligerant and voiciferous, in their posturing over Isreal,do not have the offensive capability to do any invading .If the reactors get hit,i am sure their offensive air power must be crippled as well.(i doubt it can be a surprise raid)
They can rattle their missles at the Ormuz straight,but i think that the world would not mind if US airpower kept it open and under an umbrella of fighter bomber protection.
I ran has made itself very much a loner because the non-radical arabs consider her somewhat of a pariah....they dont want this kind of radical islam exported to their countries..

 

[Yekcidmij]

you reminded me one small sentence on iran was needed to qualify my post as legal.I removed it per your protest.was said tongue in cheek after all you have all the cruise missles........how pertinent is that?-
Meantime,The pakis are in bed with the US,they are in large dependant on the relationship which they have with the bush regime.I dont think they would step in the s$$t with the US over a few Irani reactors if the action were limited to air strikes.remember the afghani opium crop.....
The Iranis, though beligerant and voiciferous, in their posturing over Isreal,do not have the offensive capability to do any invading .If the reactors get hit,i am sure their offensive air power must be crippled as well.(i doubt it can be a surprise raid)
They can rattle their missles at the Ormuz straight,but i think that the world would not mind if US airpower kept it open and under an umbrella of fighter bomber protection.
I ran has made itself very much a loner because the non-radical arabs consider her somewhat of a pariah....they dont want this kind of radical islam exported to their countries..

 

[dvd_holc]

Hi

Quote
"What gives anyone the right to say we can have this weapon and you can not."Those how have it don't have to share. They give up the good part which would be creating the kind of plant that does not produce death, but the part that says it should allow the whole Earth to have nukes.
End Quote


Iran is not asking the US to share…………….. it wants to develop the TEch itself. That is where the issue lies. America feels it should be the only one with Nukes. That way it can use its dominant conventional forces to push everyone else around and make them do what we want.


Quote
I assume you mean the current administration. Also, I guess you don't care that they have support terrorist who have attacked global communities. Since 9/11, the viewpoint on which America and others look at how we let others be has changed.
End Quote

Says who the CIA the Bush Administration.................please like we should believe that pack of liars. Provide proof that they have supported any terrorist act. Or killed civilians in another country.

As far as 911.......who funded Bindy ...who built him all those bunkers in Afghanistan.................It sure wasn't Iran.

It was the US and the Saudi Arabia. Since 90% of the hijackers were Saudis funded by Saudis should we have not invaded Saudi Arabia......................Oh No we can't do that How would Bush and Cheeney make all their money.

While the Taliban were in Afghanistan there was not one drop of heroin exported ...........and Now that the CIA is Back it is flowing like a river.

So who is benefiting from all of this war and death ...the American people..........PLEASE we are closer then ever to having a nuke blow up one of our cities......................and it won't be made in Iran either it will have been bought from the Russian black Market with donations from Saudi princes and kept active by Pakistani scientists.

Perhaps if we just packed up and left the Arab Nations alone and left Israel to fend for itself we would not have Arabs blowing up our buildings..........................AHHHH no that is just tooo obvious.

It is time to heed the advice of the Founding Fathers and stay out of everyone else’s business.

Like I said even if Iran gets a nuke they will not use it .............................they know what would happen if they did.

By the way speaking of illegal Nuke countries perhaps it is time to go into israel and take away their nukes. After all they stole our blueprints used our money to build them.

Man, you hate America and Bush. First before Bush, Clinton Adm. reported that Iran support terrorist...and we can follow that trail back further. But if you want the facts...it is not just the Bush adm. Rather, I suggest as the USA government has reported that Iran has been a long time support of terrorist. But I will not turn a blind eye to the US involvment in Afghanistan. The US has traditional back enemy of my enemy in the hopes of it's short term aims. The US is not the only one who has done this. It sit and blame the US as if it was is the sole responsible one here is blind to the complete truth. It is selectively blaming a singled out participant. Now, obivously the US has not made every good descisions on stuff. But there are more than US participation in this mess of a world. Finally, as you have not addressed this I will say...it was the intentions of the US to give increased freedom to people while produces allies and benefits for its other interests. It is no different than other nations. If you are so interested in history than you have already seen similar behavior over and over again. But what exactly is your hatred of America? I mean, you turn so blindly against the current admin. at the expense of the actual truth.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

No i don't hate Bush or America. I do not like hypocrisy and i do not like liars, and that’s what our politicians are hypocritical liars out to fill their own pockets and satisfy their lust for control and power. Over the years they have overthrown elected governments and put in place the worst scum of the Earth not just in Iran but in countries all over the World............Why so they could get the resources..........DO NOT deceive yourself this is not done for some moral (freedom) or security consideration it is done to fill their pockets with money and secure their continued access to the resources of that land for a song. If the country has no strategic or resource value we stand by while Genocide happens look at Rwanda.

Bosnia is a perfect example of this we stood by and took pictures of them murdering 10,000 people in one night. No oil…………. no strategic value ....Who cares.......................Kosovo was different it had strategic value it is the road to the Mid East so we bombed the Russian supported government out and got a Western friendly Government in Now we have troops there, now it will be part of NATO and Nato will have a land highway to the Mid East.

I am against the current admin because they have shown themselves to be liars and hypocrites of the worst kind. I was against Clinton because he was a lying scum bag who got away with a crime that would have had you or me in jail for a decade minimum.

Quote
it was the intentions of the US to give increased freedom to people while produces allies and benefits for its other interests.
End Quote


If that were true we would have had medicine and food and transformers and water treatment plants and pumps and tractors and seed and potable Hospitals..

Instead we left the people to die in squalor and the most valuable collection of History not only for Iraq but for the Whole world to be looted while we concentrated on securing the oil Ministry. Do you not see how different Iraq could have been if we had only had leadership that actually cared and meant what they said. If we had spent billions on getting their Hospital up to par and getting them water and electricity instead of concentrating on getting American companies in to do reconstruction of the Oil fields. Bush made a big deal about all the Contracts and opportunities for US companies in Iraq. Opportunities for companies that he and his buddies own. Look at Afghanistan look who is in power there now …………..Cheney's partners in his oil companies. And it is not just limited to Iraq look at Katrina............investigate who got all the rebuilding contracts for that mess.

Can you not see there is no justice in America. The rich and powerful get away with murder, fraud, child molestation and the poor are treated to the harshest justice for the smallest of crimes.

I don't hate America I hate what America is becoming.

After WWII America was seen as a great Nation The Marshal plan rebuilt much of the World after WWII............and slowly through our leaders greed and stupidity we have become the most hated Nation in the World. Even American Allies while they do not hate America do not like America or respect America as they use to. Why because they see American hypocrisy and foreign policy driven by the wealthy elite and their desire to be even wealthier.

I do not hate America I grieve for the Death of what America was and what it stood for Jefferson’s worries and warnings have come true.

"I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations, which dare already to challenge our government to a trial of strength and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

We have failed to do this and as a result America is becoming everything the founding Fathers hated in a Nation.

Our leaders talk of Democracy and then as soon as a country votes in someone we do not like we send in the CIA to arrange a military take over. Look at Venezuela and Hugo Chavez. he got elected in a democracy said he was going to Nationalize the oil Industry we sent in the CIA to kill him and overthrow the legally elected government and put in place someone who would sell out the people of that country to our cooperation, The first act of the CIA was to do this exact thing over Bananas and control of that business. It is all the CIA does it is why they are there to protect and support US companies and their interests

There my political rant is over

Now back to Iran and there right to defend themselves by what ever means they feel necessary from the Country that has invaded more countries and put in place and propped up more ruthless dictators then any other nation on the Globe.

 

[dvd_holc]

Though I agree with most of your political rant about what America has done in a limited amount. It is still apparent that we are not completely away from justice. It is apparent that in Afghanistan though the US has political concerns actual have received more freedoms and a better life since the US invasion. Second, the same can be said to a certain degree since the US has taken over there and allowed their own people develop a political system that promotes more personal freedoms and rights of individuals to stand and make it known what they believe. Now, though the US has its motives...actually a better way of life with personal freedoms has occur. Clearly, justice is present. Now, we can make arguements about the motives of the US. We can distinguish what is evil and what is good. And, it is evil for those who can do something in Rwanda to stand by and do nothing. That concern is a global one and does not solely fall on the US. Now, obivously there is a need to have a universal justice established for the freedoms and well being of humanity. The global community should stand up and live for God by living out his true purpose which is not to walk by the begger on the street or the injuryed victim laying there.

As much as, we would like to be done...there are things that act as a constraint...to those things we need to battle and through off.

It is the natural right for any civilization to take any defensive steps worth taking. I do not personally like the step of getting the most nukes to threaten the whole world. The attitude is that of if you come against me, I am going to destroy all things. That is from the pits of Hell. For many decades no one has used a nuke in war, so then why do they have to have it. Is it the only way? Nope...they form alliances with our would be enemies like Russia, China, and others...to aid them if US should invade. But that is not enough...they have to get more and more power themselves.

Anyway...They aid terrorist and call for a destruction of a community. There is no justification for such a call...it is also from the pit of Hell. They are actively persuing a capability to do so. How many more dictators have to rise before we recognize the signs? Rewritting history? Hmm...sounds like Hitler.

 

[bertie]

Hear hear!i second that motion!
I can only add that it is the same every where all day long!
Unless,and until, we are governed by a holy goverment,set apart and consecrated to service to God, we cannot govern ourselves justly.There is no system,there is no goverment that can and will care for the governed.Man by nature will always be a selfish and selfabsorbed creature.Till Jesus returns to change the nature of the human condition,and make of us a new creation spiritually re created in His image.
Now back to Iran...............
There is no hope of avoiding conflict between Isreal and Iran if they continue to persue WMD.Indeed between Iran and the rest of the world.Do not think that her arab nieghbours like the thrust to become a nuclear power that Iran is making.The other oil producing states that make up OPEC do not want the apple cart upset.They are hanging on to power, in the face of the Islamic revolution.The imams of the region hold a large pecentage of the political will in their grasp.How large remains to be seen over the next decade as the struggle goes on for control of the people of the region.
Wahabiism is the focal point of this shift in political power.As this sect grows and seeks to dominate the thinking of the whole Muslim population,we are going to see struggles for power break out within the ranks of our enemies and allies alike.As religious and secular leaders of the arab world square off to fight for control and the oil wealth that the region runs on,I believe that the situation can and will explode one day into a war between the followers of islam and the secular wealthy with their mercinary power base.
Iran seeks to become a focal point and a beacon of Islam to her more secular neighbours.She will export to any and every muslim country around her,the radical doctrine of her leaders.There is no hope of avoiding conflict with her sooner or later.
With Iran under the leadership of the radicals the situation in the middle east will never be stabilized.Now with her lust for WMD,the die is surely cast,and it is a matter of time before the attempt is made to solve the problem militarily.

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Quote
Nope...they form alliances with our would be enemies like Russia, China, and others...to aid them if US should invade. But that is not enough...they have to get more and more power themselves.
End Quote

that is just not reality is it........the only thing that holds a country at bay is Nukes....................America has clearly demonstrated that.

North Korea has exported missiles weapons and some say even nuclear material. They oppress their people they threaten peace and stability. So why has this country not been threatened with air attacks why have they not been Invaded. In fact we have promised not to attack them.

The Answer is obvious they have nukes and it would just get to messy.

Now Iraq had no nukes no real ability to strike at anyone and they had Resources that America needs Especially in light of the fact that the Saudi government is losing control and that source of oil may soon be gone. Result they got invaded.


Quote
The attitude is that of if you come against me, I am going to destroy all things. That is from the pits of Hell.
End Quote

I agree And it has been American policy for decades. We will bomb whoever we like and Invade whoever we like and if you try and attack us we reserve the right to nuke you. America won't even promise no first use. America reserves the right to strike with nukes first.

This really is a simple matter we have been sticking our nose in Iranian affairs overthrowing their government helping to murder their people for over 50 years now................the reality is the only thing that will stop us from doing so is if they have nukes ....................and they know this to be true.

You say the Iranians want a Holy war........what they want is us out of their business and to stop murdering Muslim women and children. And Yes it is Murder if you think God says OH that was an American war plane that blew up that wedding party that is not murder that is just killing in war...................you are sadly mistaken. You might say they don’t care if they die they believe they will be in paradise with 70 virgins. What of the Fundies that run America and their Light the fuse and run policy. They do all the can to inflame the Arabs believing they will Attack Israel and this will bring about rapture. It is a Light the fuse and run course of action that is based on a twisted view of scripture and nothing more.

Now as we all know Saddam supposedly killed 200,000 innocent Iraqis in hi 40 years of power.

We have killed twice that many …………………..The AMA did a report in the spring of last year that said since the Invasion began over 200,000 innocent Iraqis have been killed………………..even if you ignore this claim and Go with Bush’s number of 30,000 we will have caused the death of more innocent Iraqis in seven years then in the Whole 40 years of Saddam. Iraqis are not better off today..................The fundy Muslims are going to get control of that country and there will be Veils for Women no school. Iraq had the BEST hospital system in the Arab world the best Education system………………...Women were treated equally under the Law it had the Best economy...Life was good in Iraq for the average Iraqis.............true if you were against the government you were in trouble but other then that for the average Iraqis they had power they had water they had a job their children went to school if they got sick they had the best hospitals. What do they have now NOTHING they have the fear of being blown up every time they go out the door.......they have no water no electricity women have been set back 50 years it is a total mess and it is our fault.

As for Afghanistan the only people that have it better are those in the capital the rest are living in bombed out villages with American companies sucking what little money the country gets out of it and into their pockets.

I do not hate America Nor do I hate freedom …………………..I can’t even believe anyone bought such crap…………………..I hate what is going on and I know that without a doubt America will suffer the wrath of God as will all the nations for their part in this travesty.

If I say nothing and stand by and just watch then I am guilty by association. I wish to be able to look Jesus straight in the eye and say I had nothing to do with any of it I tried to tell them but they wouldn’t listen………………..What are you going to say to him………..Don’t get me wrong I do not know you and I accuse you of nothing……………..I am just trying to get you to stand up with me and say enough is enough these lies and this travesty must stop here and now.

This is what amazes me about those who preach pretrib rapture they are also the ones who support the political statuesque and for this complacency for this accessory before the fact they think they will be rewarded and whisked away When God final says enough is enough. I speak the Truth ……………They will be sorely disappointed.

 

[dvd_holc]

How long has North Korea had nukes?

 

[dvd_holc]

Are you claiming the victims of murders as part of the number you quote? I am curious if your brother shots someone to home you where talking to do the world blame you or your brother? So then out of the number you quote how many were murder by terrorist or freedom fighter of Iraq and surronding arab nations?

 

[Just The Facts]

Hi

Some would say just a few years. Others say over a decade.

Since they have been named part of the axis of evil they have had nukes.

Iraq has been Invaded....................Iran is on the verge of being Invaded.

North korea will never be invaded.

Why they have Nukes.

I am not sure where the AMA goy their Numbers................. Bush said it was innocent Iraqis civilians that have died. as a result of the war. So I do not think it would include murders or insurgent victims. iraqis hospitals put civilian casualties of the shook and awe and invasion at over 20,000

Anyway you look at it more Iraqis are dying ever day now then when Saddam ruled. Don't get me wrong I am not saying Saddam was great or even good...........just that more inncoent Iraqis die now then then. And as far as Arab nation are concerned Iraq was one of the better one Human rights wise.