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Investigative Judgment (Seventh day Adventists)

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by aemaleski, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Cases of the Righteous have already been decided!


    The Adventist Church teaches that "all" must pass through the Investigative Judgment to determine whether or not they will be saved.3 Adventists claim the Investigative Judgment started in 1844, but the Bible clearly shows that the cases of the righteous have already been decided long prior to the Investigative Judgment:

    Thief on the cross:
    Jesus declared to the thief on the cross, "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luke 22:43). How could Jesus make a determination on the case of the thief prior to the Investigative Judgment? The thief's case was determined some 1800 years before the "Investigative Judgment" when he repented and accepted Jesus on the cross. This proves that Christ needs no Investigative Judgment to determine who will be with Him in heaven. Why would He treat us any differently than He treated the thief on the cross?

    Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob:
    The Bible says Abraham was justified (accounted righteous) by faith (Rom. 4:2-5). Nearly 1800 years before the Investigative Judgment supposedly began Jesus declared:


    Matt. 8:11..........
    "And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven."

    Jesus did not need an Investigative Judgment to determine the cases of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, so why does He need one to determine our destiny?

    Enoch:
    Adventists claim that Enoch was taken to heaven (Gen. 5:24). How did God know Enoch could be taken to heaven without an investigation?

    Moses:
    Adventists claim that after Moses sinned and died he was resurrected and taken to heaven (Jude 9). If everyone's sins are not blotted out until after the investigative judgment, then how could Moses enter heaven?

    Elijah:
    The Bible says that "Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven" (1 Kings 2:11). How could God take Elijah before the Investigative Judgement was completed?

    Care to explain those problems with what you are proposing as an "Investigative Judgment"?
     
  2. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I do not agree my friend. All I am seeing from him and you is SDA teachings.
    I am sure you are sincere in what you have been taught, it is just that I do not believe that what you accept is what I understand the Scriptures to be saying.

    There are just too many discrepancies and errors and non-Biblical items in SDA theology for me to take them seriousely.

    Example: When did Christ enter the Holiest?

    Seventh-day Adventists teach that Jesus entered two times into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly sanctuary--once at His ascension, and once again in 1844 at the beginning of the aypical Day of Atonement.

    IT IS IN THE BIBLE that Christ entered only once:

    Heb. 9:12...……..
    "But by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us."

    Heb. 10:12...……..
    "But this man {Christ}, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God."
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

    However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.

    Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

    Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness Revoked
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    OSAS does not survive Matthew 18

    Romans 11
    18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

    OSAS does not survive Romans 11

    As you may have noticed I don't quote anything else - unless it is a non-SDA source that I find helpful for the discussion.

    Depends on whether you think that people who have to pay for their own sins are saved ... which amounts to someone in the lake of fire (second death) being called "saved".

    Is that how you define "saved"?

    Christ said "So shall My Father do to you" not "So shall your neighbor do to you".

    This is a pretty large detail that makes all the difference in the world.

    So while it is true that these sins (and "sin is the transgression of the law") between brothers deals with the moral law of God - the last six commandments -- still the one that "returns your debt" is God the Father according to Christ.

    The servant in Matthew 18 does not owe his brother - he owes the king.

    But then when that servant does not forgive his brother - the king returns the debt to him that he owed the king -- not the debt he owed his brother. IN fact the text points to no debt at all that he owed his brother.

    Simply put - OSAS does not survive Matthew 18 "details".

    This is a very big "elephant" in OSAS's living room.

    And I do not agree with yours. We started off with that clear understanding.

    Sorry that is not how "sola scriptura testing" of doctrine works. That method of testing does not care who differs with the opinion of someone else.

    Rather it is "the Bible details" as listed above that you are side stepping that is the heart of sola-scriptura testing given the Matthew 18 text you asked to have expanded for discussion as it pertains to OSAS.

    Your choice to simply "circle back and repeat your own conclusion" is not even remotely addressing the Bible details raised.

    And we both know it.

    in Christ,

    Bob
     
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    let's look at the Seventh-Day Adventist teaching of "Investigative Judgment." The following quote by Ellen G. White is from The Great Controversy...………...

    "As in typical service there was a work of atonement at the close of the year, so before Christ's work for redemption of men is completed, there is a work of atonement for the removal of sin from the sanctuary. This is the service which began when the 2,300 days ended (according to Mrs. White this was in the year 1844! Evidently the nineteenth century was more wonderful than we had imagined!-Ed.). At that time, as foretold by Daniel the prophet, our high priest entered the most holy to perform the last division, of his solemn work to cleanse the sanctuary . . . in the new covenant the sins of the repentant are by faith placed upon Christ, and transferred, in fact, to the heavenly sanctuary . . . so the actual cleansing to cleanse the sanctuary. . . in the new covenant the sins of moval, or blotting out, of the sins which are there recorded. But, before this can be accomplished, there must be an examination of the books of record to determine who, through repentance of sin and faith in Christ, are entitled to the benefits of His atonement. The cleansing of the sanctuary therefore involves a work of investigation–a work of judgment. Those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw that, instead of coming to earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844 (as Prophet William Miller had so dogmatically and widely proclaimed.—Ed.), Christ then entered in the most holy place of the heavenly, to perform the closing work of atonement preparatory to his coming."

    It is heresy for anyone to claim that Christ's work of redemption wasn't completed at the mercy seat. There is NOTHING in the Scriptures teaching otherwise. There is nothing even remotely indicative of an "investigative judgment" (as they term it), where Christ completes His work of redemption. SDAs have a faulty understanding of Christ's work of redemption. SDAs believe that Jesus is still in the process of redeeming them.

    On the contrary, Hebrews 9:26 teaches,...…..
    "...but now ONCE in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself."

    Jesus didn't need to go into the Holy of Holies repeatedly as did the Old Testament high priests; BUT, only once (Hebrews 9:25)! The very concept of an "Investigative Judgment" would require Jesus to enter into the Holy of Holies AT LEAST TWICE, the second time being in 1844.

    Clearly this is extremely unbiblical. The false teaching of "Investigative Judgment" denies Christ's COMPLETED work of redemption.

    According to www.adventist.org...
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

    However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.

    Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

    Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness Revoked
    32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

    OSAS does not survive Matthew 18

    Romans 11
    18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

    OSAS does not survive Romans 11

    As you may have noticed I don't quote anything else - unless it is a non-SDA source that I find helpful for the discussion.

    Depends on whether you think that people who have to pay for their own sins are saved ... which amounts to someone in the lake of fire (second death) being called "saved".

    Is that how you define "saved"?

    Christ said "So shall My Father do to you" not "So shall your neighbor do to you".

    This is a pretty large detail that makes all the difference in the world.

    So while it is true that these sins (and "sin is the transgression of the law") between brothers deals with the moral law of God - the last six commandments -- still the one that "returns your debt" is God the Father according to Christ.

    The servant in Matthew 18 does not owe his brother - he owes the king.

    But then when that servant does not forgive his brother - the king returns the debt to him that he owed the king -- not the debt he owed his brother. IN fact the text points to no debt at all that he owed his brother.

    Simply put - OSAS does not survive Matthew 18 "details".

    This is a very big "elephant" in OSAS's living room.
    ======================================
    The post you responded to - is a response by me to YF who is bringing up the subject of losing salvation as it pertains to the Judgment described in the Bible in places like Romans 2, and Daniel 7 etc.

    in that post I answer the direct question then point out that the "loss of salvation" question that was raised by YF has to do with OSAS -- which is not a doctrine the Bible supports.

    Next we have you asking for the actual verses in Matthew 18 and Romans 11 that make the point of refuting OSAS.

    You claim you do not find salvation lost in the "forgiveness revoked" lesson of Matthew 18 -- and I point out some pretty large, obvious and glaring issues with trying to imagine salvation remains while one's forgiveness of sins is revoked.

    Now you seem to be saying you do not follow details.

    But then pivot to

     
  6. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    Bob,
    To deny OSAS you have to believe that other statements in the Bible can rescind or contradict these promises. That means you believe that either God wasn’t sincere when He had Paul make them, or that He let Paul make a promise in His name that isn’t true, or that He changed His mind and revoked them.

    You have greatly misunderstood Matthew 18 and Romans 11 to believe that they are teaching or that OSAS is not Biblical.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    This was in response to your own claims about Romans 11

    Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

    Romans 11
    18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

    OSAS does not survive Romans 11

    Romans 11 text above regarding gentiles is specifically talking about NOT Israel (Israel in the flesh) -- rather gentiles (in the flesh -- genetically).

    Here is literal Israel --
    Romans 11
    I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

    7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

    “God has given them a spirit of stupor,
    Eyes that they should not see
    And ears that they should not hear,
    To this very day.”

    Literal Jews vs Literal Gentiles

    11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!


    Now specifically to literal gentiles:
    13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

    16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

    "Branches broken off" = literal Jews
    "I am grafted in" = literal gentile
    19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.

    Gentile saved by grace through faith
    20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.


    OSAS crushed
    Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

    Saved gentiles were just told to "fear" because if they do not "continue" as they are today - then they too will be "cut off" just as lost literal Israel is today.

    And OLAL once lost always lost is also refuted here. Literal Israel being offered a door back in "again".
    23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


    Back to the "Gentile focus"
    24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

    25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

    And that you stand only by your faith. So now "fear" -- and why fear?

    Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

    That is a very big elephant in OSAS's living room.

    OSAS does not survive Rom 11

    confronted with the Bible texts that do not support OSAS - you pivot to

     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    No I do not.

    I have to believe that all of it is true -- and that avoiding Romans 11 and Matthew 18 and Hebrews 6 and 1Cor 6 and John 15 and ... just to cling to OSAS "anyway" is not even remotely "sola scriptura" testing of doctrine.

    I gave you the Bible details in both chapters that are glaring and obvious...details that OSAS does not survive as demonstrated in your own comments about those chapters and how that failed when we "review the details".

    Your solution? "Let's talk about Ellen White".

    surely that has to be a bit "less than satisfying" for you if you are one who believes in sola scriptura testing.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    Step one: Define terms.

    You skipped that.

    Step two: notice the details in scripture

    You already claim that there are too many for that.

    Step three: notice what Hebrews 8:1-5 says "is the MAIN POINT" -- it is the very "detail" you are so much in a rush not to look at.

    '
    Correction

    Heb 9 -- NASB

    Now even the first covenant had regulations of divine worship and the earthly sanctuary. 2 For there was a tabernacle prepared, the outer one, in which were the lampstand and the table and the sacred bread; this is called the holy place. 3 Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, 4 having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron’s rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant; 5 and above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the mercy seat; but of these things we cannot now speak in detail.

    11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation; 12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling those who have been defiled sanctify for the cleansing of the flesh, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?



    24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own. 26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.

    Heb 7
    26 For it was fitting for us to have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens; 27 who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.

    In Paul's context - high priests on Earth entered daily into the holy place to offer daily sacrifices.
     
  10. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Indeed.

    Good.

    In this you are gravely mistaken, and have the Roman Catholic theology of an ethereal 'god', a 'mystic perfume' which pervades the universe (pantheism, or panentheism).

    Standard 'pentecostal' misuse of John 4:24 (KJB). God is a spirit. So are angels, men, according to scripture. They have bodies.

    Good Angels are called “ministering spirits” [Psalms 104:4; Hebrews 1:7,14 KJB], while fallen angels are called “evil spirits” [Luke 7:21, 8:2; Acts 19:12,13 KJB], and “unclean spirits” [Matthew 10:1; Mark 1:27, 3:11, 5:13, 6:7; Luke 4:36, 6:18; Acts 5:16, 8:7; Revelation 16:13 KJB], of whom it is said that we [as Christians] “... wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    Of course, each text is true and correct in what they say/teach, [though generally misunderstood by many], as any angel [good or evil] has not “flesh and blood” as we of man-kind have, that is “bodies terrestrial” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB] and “of the earth, earthy” [1 Corinthians 15:57 KJB], but rather they have “celestial bodies” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB], being an “heavenly” [1 Corinthians 15:48,49; Hebrews 11:16 KJB], for God has given to each kind [angel and man], “a body as it hath pleased him” [1 Corinthians 15:38 KJB], for “[a]ll flesh is not the same flesh” [1 Corinthians 15:39 KJB], and there are “celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB].

    Paul says that we, Christians, are not looking to be “unclothed” [2 Corinthians 5:4 KJB], but rather, “to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven” [2 Corinthians 5:2 KJB], “so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked” [2 Corinthians 5:3 KJB; nakedness here is the sleep of death, the doing and knowing nothing of the grave; Ecclesiastes 9:5,6,10, etc. KJB], being “clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life” [2 Corinthians 5:4 KJB], that “mortal” shall put on, and be swallowed up of, “immortality” [1 Corinthians 15:53,54 KJB].

    Jesus' own body in His resurrection is a real glorified body, in which He participated in eating, speaking, touching, etc., and is the very same body that he ascended up into Heaven with, not faded into the aether nor dematerialized into vaporous nothing.

    The “stone” [Matthew 28:2; Mark 16:3,4; Luke 24:2; John 20:1 KJB] upon the tomb had to be rolled back by Gabriel, to let Jesus free. Jesus did not phase through it, He got up and walked out of the opening [Matthew 28:1-7; Mark 16:1-8; Luke 24;1-9; John 20:1-13 KJB]. Additionally, in Jesus' death there was an earthquake [Matthew 27:51 KJB] which “opened” [Matthew 27:52 KJB] many of the tombs of the martyred saints around Jerusalem, so that those martyred saints therein, could come “out” [Matthew 27:53 KJB] in their resurrection when Jesus was resurrected [1 Corinthians 15:20,23 KJB]. They did not phase through them either.

    The disciples were able to hold onto Jesus' glorified flesh, when they held Him by the feet [Matthew 28:9; John 20:17 KJB], and He drew near to two on the road to Emmaus, and walked and talked with them [Mark 16:12; Luke 24:15 KJB], and entered their house, sat down and broke bread with them [Luke 24:30,35 KJB]. Jesus verily “vanished out of their sight” [Luke 24:32 KJB], but please notice, it does not say he *poofed* into nothing. To “vanish out of … sight” is simply to be “invisible”, not incorporeal, as a mythological and paganistic 'shade'. They got up and left to go back to Jerusalem, and Jesus was with them the whole time, unseen. Jesus did not phase through a wall, nor a locked door, that first day [John 20:19 KJB], nor a week later [John 20:26 KJB]. He simply entered with them [Luke 24:32-36 KJB], and was “invisible” until He revealed Himself, even as He had been with the two earlier on the road to Emmaus and they did not recognize Him, until He showed Himself to them at their house.

    Jesus asks them to “handle” [Luke 24:38; Ephesians 5:30 KJB] Him, having “flesh and bones”, “hands and feet” [Luke 24:39,40 KJB], and He eats with the disciples [Luke 24:41-43 KJB]. Jesus even asks Thomas to put his finger and hand into the very wounds that Jesus still had [John 20:27 KJB]. He also shewed Himself at the sea of Tiberias [John 21:1-25 KJB], and also

    Jesus later ascends [Mark 16:19; Luke 24:51; John 20:17; Acts 1:2-11; Ephesians 4:8-10; Revelation 12:5; Psalms 24:1-10 KJB] into Heaven with the “same” [Acts 1:11 KJB] glorified body, even the “form” [Daniel 3:25; Philippians 2:6, etc & Exodus 33:23 KJB] thereof. This same body, and all its descriptive parts, is seen in Heaven in Revelation 1:13-16, 2:1,18 KJB, having the glory He had before coming in humanity [John 17:5 KJB]. He went to “prepare a place” [John 14:2,3 KJB], a very real place, for those who believe unto the end.

    That Heavenly city, having precious foundations, whose builder and make is God [Hebrews 11:10 KJB], is real and will come down from Heaven above, and is filled with all manner of beauty and creation, “cherubim and seraphim, “elders”, “creatures”, stones, gold, pearls, eternal gates. We will have “crowns”, “palms”, “harps” and “white raiment”, being able to drink from the “river of water of life”, and to eat from “the tree of life” in the middle of the garden of the Heavenly Eden. There is the true Temple and true Ark of God, and His Ten Commandments. The Father Himself [and Son] rules from a very real “throne”, and a description of Him may be seen in Daniel 7:9; Matthew 10:18; Revelation 4, etc KJB.

    Satan has attempted to etherealize and vaporize the reward of God and Heaven into non-things, gaseous clouds of non-entity, incorporeal vanity, and he has highly succeeded in this, but only because God's people reject knowledge sent from God [Hosea 4:6 KJB].

    The angels, like the Cherubim and Seraphim, the shining ones, are “ministering spirits” [Hebrews 1:14 KJB], called a “flaming fire” [Psalms 104:4 KJB], and “ministers a flame of fire” [Hebrews 1:7 KJB], and their “countenances” are “like lightning”, as “burning coals of fire”, and “burning lamps”, and wearing “white raiment” which are very “bright”. Even Satan can transform himself into an “angel of light” [2 Corinthians 11:14 KJB]. Does this mean that angels have no substance, no body and are merely wispy aether? Not at all. The bodies they have, are “celestial” [1 Corinthians 15:40 KJB], and those which are good, are led by the Spirit, and are thus spiritual bodies [1 Corinthians 15:44 KJB], being in subjection to God, and are not subject to death [yet the wicked angels will be soon]. Even we, as Christians, are to be “ministering spirits” also:

    Hebrews 12:23 KJB - To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

    Scripture teaches that God, the Father, is actually "in Heaven" (a specific location), and that Jesus ascended bodily (glorified body of flesh and bones) to that location (3rd Heaven, having to pass through the distance of the first 2 heavens; see Luke and Acts).

    Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

    Jesus did not arise into the air and poof into nothingness. He actually went to His Father, a place (a real world), with a real throne, who upon it sits the real body of the Father.
    He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

    As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

    See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:20).

    The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

    The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

    So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c)

    Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

    Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.
     
  11. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Standard 'pentecostal' misuse of John 4:24 (KJB). God is a spirit. So are angels, men, according to scripture. They have bodies.

    "... PERSONALITY OF GOD

    MAN was made in the image of God. "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him." Gen.i,26,27. See also chap.ix,6; 1Cor.xi,7. Those who deny the personality of God, say that "image" here does not mean physical form, but moral image, and they make this the grand starting point to prove the immortality of all men. The argument stands thus: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is an immortal being. Third, therefore all men are immortal. But this mode of reasoning would also prove man omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent, and thus clothe mortal man with all the attributes of the deity. Let us try it: First, man was made in God's moral image. Second, God is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Third, therefore, man is omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. That which proves too much, proves nothing to the point, therefore the position that the image of God means his moral image, cannot be sustained. As proof that God is a person, read his own words to Moses: "And the Lord said, Behold there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock; and it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a cleft of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by. And I will take away mine hand and thou shalt see my [2] back parts; but my face shall not be seen." Ex.xxxiii,21-23. See also chap.xxiv,9-11. Here God tells Moses that he shall see his form. To say that God made it appear to Moses that he saw his form, when he has no form, is charging God with adding to falsehood a sort of juggling deception upon his servant Moses. {1861 JW, PERGO 1.1}

    But the skeptic thinks he sees a contradiction between verse 11, which says that the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, and verse 20, which states that Moses could not see his face. But let Num.xii,5-8 remove the difficulty. "And the Lord came down in the pillar of the cloud, and stood in the door of the tabernacle, and called Aaron and Miriam, and they both came forth. And he said, Hear now my words. If there be a prophet among you, I, the Lord, will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently." {1861 JW, PERGO 2.1}

    The great and dreadful God came down, wrapped in a cloud of glory. This cloud could be seen, but not the face which possesses more dazzling brightness than a thousand suns. Under these circumstances Moses was permitted to draw near and converse with God face to face, or mouth to mouth, even apparently. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.2}

    Says the prophet Daniel, "I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hairs of his head like the pure wool; his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Chap.vii,9. "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him, and [3] there was given him dominion and glory and a kingdom." Verses 13, 14. {1861 JW, PERGO 2.3}

    Here is a sublime description of the action of two personages; viz, God the Father, and his Son Jesus Christ. Deny their personality, and there is not a distinct idea in these quotations from Daniel. In connection with this quotation read the apostle's declaration that the Son was in the express image of his Father's person. "God, who at sundry times, and in divers manners, spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person." Heb.i,1-3. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.1}

    We here add the testimony of Christ. "And the Father himself which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape." John v,37. See also Phil.ii,6. To say that the Father has not a personal shape, seems the most pointed contradiction of plain scripture terms.

    OBJECTION. - "God is a Spirit." John iv,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.2}

    ANSWER. - Angels are also spirits [Ps.civ,4], yet those that visited Abram and Lot, lay down, ate, and took hold of Lot's hand. They were spirit beings. So is God a Spirit being. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.3}

    OBJ. - God is everywhere. Proof. Ps.cxxxix,1-8. He is as much in every place as in any one place. {1861 JW, PERGO 3.4}

    ANS. - 1. God is everywhere by virtue of his omniscience, as will be seen by the very words of David referred to above. Verses 1-6. "O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my down-sitting and mine uprising; thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a [4] word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thy hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me. It is high; I cannot attain unto it." {1861 JW, PERGO 3.5}

    2. God is everywhere by virtue of his Spirit, which is his representative, and is manifested wherever he pleases, as will be seen by the very words the objector claims, referred to above. Verses 7-10. "Whither shall I go from thy Spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me." {1861 JW, PERGO 4.1}

    God is in heaven. This we are taught in the Lord's prayer. "Our Father which art in heaven." Matt.vi,9; Luke xi,2. But if God is as much in every place as he is in any one place, then heaven is also as much in every place as it is in any one place, and the idea of going to heaven is all a mistake. We are all in heaven; and the Lord's prayer, according to this foggy theology simply means, Our Father which art everywhere, hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, on earth, as it is everywhere. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.2}

    Again, Bible readers have believed that Enoch and Elijah were really taken up to God in heaven. But if God and heaven be as much in every place as in any one place, this is all a mistake. They were not translated. And all that is said about the chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and the attending whirlwind to take Elijah up into heaven, was a useless parade. They only evaporated, and a misty vapor passed through the entire universe. This is all of Enoch and Elijah that the mind can possibly grasp, admitting that God and heaven are [5] no more in any one place than in every place. But it is said of Elijah that he "went up by a whirlwind into heaven." 2Kings ii,11. And of Enoch it is said that he "walked with God, and was not, for God took him." Gen.v,24. {1861 JW, PERGO 4.3}

    Jesus is said to be on the right hand of the Majesty on high." Heb.i,3. "So, then, after the Lord had spoken unto them he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God." Mark xvi,19. But if heaven be everywhere, and God everywhere, then Christ's ascension up to heaven, at the Father's right hand, simply means that he went everywhere! He was only taken up where the cloud hid him from the gaze of his disciples, and then evaporated and went everywhere! So that instead of the lovely Jesus, so beautifully described in both Testaments, we have only a sort of essence dispersed through the entire universe. And in harmony with this rarified theology, Christ's second advent, or his return, would be the condensation of this essence to some locality, say the mount of Olivet! Christ arose from the dead with a physical form. "He is not here," said the angel, "for he is risen as he said." Matt.xxviii,6. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.1}

    "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail! And they came and held him by the feet, and they worshiped him." Verse 9. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.2}
    "Behold my hands and my feet," said Jesus to those who stood in doubt of his resurrection, "that it is I myself. Handle me and see, for a spirit hath not flesh and bones as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he showed them his hands and his feet. And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat? And they gave him a piece of broiled fish, and of an honey-comb, and he took it and did eat before them." Luke xxiv,39-43. {1861 JW, PERGO 5.3} [6]

    After Jesus addressed his disciples on the mount of Olivet, he was taken up from them, and a cloud received him out of their sight. "And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel, which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven." Acts i,9-11. J. W. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.1}

    IMMATERIALITY

    THIS is but another name for nonentity. It is the negative of all things and beings - of all existence. There is not one particle of proof to be advanced to establish its existence. It has no way to manifest itself to any intelligence in heaven or on earth. Neither God, angels, nor men could possibly conceive of such a substance, being, or thing. It possesses no property or power by which to make itself manifest to any intelligent being in the universe. Reason and analogy never scan it, or even conceive of it. Revelation never reveals it, nor do any of our senses witness its existence. It cannot be seen, felt, heard, tasted, or smelled, even by the strongest organs, or the most acute sensibilities. It is neither liquid nor solid, soft nor hard - it can neither extend nor contract. In short, it can exert no influence whatever - it can neither act nor be acted upon. And even if it does exist, it can be of no possible use. It possesses no one, desirable property, faculty, or use, yet, strange to say, immateriality is the modern Christian's God, his anticipated heaven, his immortal self - his all! {1861 JW, PERGO 6.2}

    O sectarianism! O atheism!! O annihilation!!! [7]

    who can perceive the nice shades of difference between the one and the other? They seem alike, all but in name. The atheist has no God. The sectarian has a God without body or parts. Who can define the difference? For our part we do not perceive a difference of a single hair; they both claim to be the negative of all things which exist - and both are equally powerless and unknown. {1861 JW, PERGO 6.3}

    The atheist has no after life, or conscious existence beyond the grave. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial, like his God; and without body or parts. Here again both are negative, and both arrive at the same point. Their faith and hope amount to the same; only it is expressed by different terms. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.1}

    Again, the atheist has no heaven in eternity. The sectarian has one, but it is immaterial in all its properties, and is therefore the negative of all riches and substances. Here again they are equal, and arrive at the same point. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.2}

    As we do not envy them the possession of all they claim, we will now leave them in the quiet and undisturbed enjoyment of the same, and proceed to examine the portion still left for the despised materialist to enjoy. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.3}

    What is God? He is material, organized intelligence, possessing both body and parts. Man is in his image. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.4}

    What is Jesus Christ? He is the Son of God, and is like his Father, being "the brightness of his Father's glory, and the express image of his person." He is a material intelligence, with body, parts, and passions; possessing immortal flesh and immortal bones. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.5}

    What are men? They are the offspring of Adam. They are capable of receiving intelligence and exaltation to such a degree as to be raised from the dead with a body like that of Jesus Christ, [8] and to possess immortal flesh and bones. Thus perfected, they will possess the material universe, that is, the earth, as their "everlasting inheritance." With these hopes and prospects before us, we say to the Christian world who hold to immateriality, that they are welcome to their God - their life - their heaven, and their all. They claim nothing but that which we throw away; and we claim nothing but that which they throw away. Therefore, there is no ground for quarrel or contention between us. {1861 JW, PERGO 7.6}

    We choose all substance - what remains
    The mystical sectarian gains;
    All that each claims, each shall possess,
    Nor grudge each other's happiness.

    An immaterial God they choose,
    For such a God we have no use;
    An immaterial heaven and hell,
    In such a heaven we cannot dwell.

    We claim the earth, the air, and sky,
    And all the starry worlds on high;
    Gold, silver, ore, and precious stones,
    And bodies made of flesh and bones.

    Such is our hope, our heaven, our all,
    When once redeemed from Adam's fall;
    All things are ours, and we shall be,
    The Lord's to all eternity. {1861 JW, PERGO 8.1} ..." - Personality of God, by James Springer White, 1861, pages 1.1 - 8.1
     
  12. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Actually no. Paul said:

    2Ti_4:8 Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

    No one receives their reward upon death (that is more of Roman Catholic neo platonic (greek) dualistic spiritualism and stems from satan in the garden, "Ye shall not surely die" (Genesis 3:4). Those who die, remain in the dust, until their respective resurrection.

    A: [sleep, asleep, sleepeth] Deuteronomy 31:16; 2 Samuel 7:12; Job 3:13, 7:21, 14:12; 1 Kings 1:21, 2:10, 11:21,43, 14:20,31, 15:8,24, 16:6,28, 22:40,50; 2 Kings 8:24, 10:35, 13:9,13, 14:16,22,29, 15:7,22,38, 16:20, 20:21, 21:18, 24:6; 2 Chronicles 9:31, 12:16, 14:1, 16:13, 21:1, 26:2,23, 27:9, 28:27, 32:33, 33:20; Job 14:12; Psalms 13:3; Matthew 27:52; John 11:11-13; Acts 7:60, 13:36; 1 Corinthians 15:6,18,20,51; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-15; 2 Peter 3:4; [awake] Job 14:12; Psalms 17:15; Isaiah 26:19; Daniel 12:2; John 11:11-13; [grave/bed] Job 17:13; Psalms 139:8; Luke 17:34; [fathers and prophets are dead] John 6:49,58, 8:52,53; Acts 2:29,34, 13:36; Hebrews 11:4,13,16,40

    B: [knowing nothing] Genesis 27:4, 45:28; Ruth 1:17; Job 3:17-19, 7:8-10, 14:21, 21:32; 2 Kings 22:20; 2 Chronicles 34:28; Psalms 6:5, 28:1, 31:17, 88:4,10,11, 115:17, 143:7, 146:4; Ecclesiastes 9:4,5,6,10; Isaiah 14:11, 38:18; [reserved] 2 Peter 2:9; [He goes to prepare a place, so that when He comes again, 2nd Advent, He will raise us and receive us] John 14:2-3

    C: [grave/s, sepulchre/s, tomb/s, pit/s, hell [ie Hb: sheol; Gr: hades; grave]] Genesis 23:6, 35:20, 37:35, 44:29,31, 50:5; Exodus 14:11; Numbers 16:30, 19:16,18; Deuteronomy 34:6; Judges 8:32, 1 Samuel 2:6, 10:2; 2 Samuel 3:32, 4:10, 17:23, 19:37, 21:14, 22:6; 1 Kings 2:6,9, 13:22,30,31, 14:13; 2 Kings 9:28, 13:21, 21:26, 22:20, 23:6,16,17,30; 2 Chronicles 16:14, 21:20, 24:25, 28:27, 32:33, 34:4,28, 35:24; Nehemiah 2:3,5, 3:16; Job 3:17-19,22, 5:26, 7:8-10, 10:19, 11:8, 14:12-14,21, 17:1,13,16, 21:13,23-32, 24:19, 26:6, 30:24, 33:22; Psalms 5:9, 6:5, 18:5, 28:1, 30:3, 31:17, 35:7, 49:14,15, 55:15, 86:13, 88:3,4,5-12, 89:48, 94:13, 115:17, 116:3, 139:8, 141:7, 143:7; Proverbs 1:12, 5:5, 7:27, 9:18, 15:11,24, 23:14, 27:20, 30:16; Ecclesiastes 6:6, 9:10; Song of Songs [Solomon] 8:6; Isaiah 5:14, 14:9,11,15,19, 22:16, 28:15,18, 38:10,18, 53:9, 57:9, 65:4; Jeremiah 5:16, 8:1, 26:23, 20:17; Ezekiel 26:20, 31:15-17, 32:18,21-27, 37:12,13, 39:11; Hosea 13:14; Amos 9:2; Jonah 2:2 [<- figurative, typological]; Nahum 1:14; Habakkuk 2:5; Matthew 8:8, 11:23, 23:27,29, 27:52,53,60,61,64,66, 28:8; Mark 5:2,3,5, 6:29, 15:46, 16:2,3,5,8; Luke 8:27, 10:15, 11:47,48, 23:53,55, 24:1,2,9,12,22,24; John 5:28, 11:31,38, 12:17, 19:41,42, 20:1-4,6,8,11; Acts 2:29,34, 7:16, 13:29,36; Romans 3:13; 1 Corinthians 15:55; Revelation 1:18, 11:9, 20:13,14

    Again, the CONDITION is "belief" which is up to us to do. A person may at any point and time choose to stop believing. Salvation is a marriage relationship, not rape.

    Romans 10:9 doesn't help you:

    Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
    Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
    Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    "Unto" is a very key word (as there is distance to travel, time, etc) along with "believeth" and "shalt be" (future tense), "σωθησηG4982 V-FPI-2S" (Verb-Future-Passsive-Indicative-2nd Person-Singular)

    Again, you are mistaken, and do not understand the several phases of Judgment, neither do you understand who takes part in those phases.

    2Co_5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    In that passage, can you show me why you choose to place the judgment seat event and the reward event at the same time? The text does not say that. In fact, there are numerous texts like this one, though they be in the same sentence together, massive amount of time passes from one part of the sentence to the other part.

    [1] [what] we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ.

    The text does not say in person, physically, neither does it state a time.

    [2] [why] when judgment is given, by Jesus, at some point rewards are given, for the things done in the body, "good or bad".

    The two parts are not said to take place at the same instance. You assume this, incorrectly, by simply citing this one verse, rather than in the context of all verses on judgment. There is no specific "when" in the text.

    For instance, when Christ Jesus comes, His reward is with him to render unto every man:

    Rev_22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

    That means that Judgment takes place before He comes for the saints, which we find in Revelation 14:6-7, etc:

    Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Notice, a Judgment taking place before Jesus comes, and before the Everlating Gospel, the mystery of godliness is finished, which means this Judgment is going on while the Everlasting Gospel is being preached still (right now), and other texts even give the date it began, Daniel 8:13-14,26, Revelation 9:15, etc.

    Notice, a time is coming when the Gospel closes, and that Judgment will also close:

    Rev_10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

    Rev_22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.

    Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:

    Dan 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

    Notice that a "book" is consulted in this Judgment, and persons must be "found" written therein. In order for them to be found there, the book must be investigated, searched to see who is actually a Christan, see also Daniel 7:9-10.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  13. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Agreed.

    H: [[second great] resurrection [of the wicked, unjust, damnation, at the end/close of the 1000 years, when Christ Jesus and all of the Saints [then immortal] descend to Earth in New Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives, and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place; Zechariah 14; Revelation 20]] John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a

    There are three groups outside the city.

    [1] those who never professed Jesus (wicked general) (already condemned; John 3:18)

    [2] those who once professed but turned away (once professing) (these wre found wanting in the Investigative Judgment, in the Judgment that began at the House of God, beginning with the Ancient (Elders), see Ezekiel 9, 1 Peter 4:17; etc)

    [3] satan and his angels

    When Jesus returns in the 2n and 3rd Advents (with 1000 years in between), it is to "execute Judgment":

    Jud_1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

    That cannot take place unless, an investigation into the record books of Heaven took place.

    Indeed, Revelation 20, Isaiah 24, etc.

    Yes, this is the final phase of a multi-phase judgment.

    Another investigative Judgment, by the saints in Heaven, took place before that event:

    Dan 7:22 Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    1Co 6:2 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?

    1Co 6:3 Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

    After the 1000 years, the Saints, along with God, execute the judgments written upon the finally impentient (at the Great White throne):

    Psa 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
    Psa 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
    Psa 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
    Psa 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
    Psa 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
    Psa 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
    Psa 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
    Psa 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
    Psa 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.

    Because it is the "executive" phase of the Judgment. A judge does not "execute" judgment that has not first been investigated and a decision come to. At the executive phase the sentence is carried out, not then determined. It was determined before execution.

    Agreed, but the persons in Heaven, had to investigate the books, in judgment first, in order for them to not be "found" written therein.

    No human being is left alive on earth during the 1,000 years. It is a devoid wasteland, atmosphere ripped apart, the sun and moon moved out of their places, earth broken down due to the 7 last plagues and great and mighty earthquake, in effect the earth is returned to a Genesis, 'formless and void' state, wherein satan and his angels are trapped in that 'pit', as a prison, until the 1,000 years is up, wherein execution takes place.

    All demonstrable upon request.

    The wicked will be resurrected after the 1,000 years, agreed (with the small exception of the special resurrection that takes place just before Jesus returns, demonstrable upon request),

    The Great White Throne judgment is not for the righteous, the saints, who will already have received their crowns (see previously cited text from Paul, etc). They are not judged at that time. It is only for the "dead" (those outside of Christ), not the "living" (those in Christ).

    Indeed, already addressed.

    Yes, you agree that we must appear, but the disagreement is in the timing and manner of how we appear before the judgment seat. It is not found in Revelation 20 for the saints, at all.

    The real question is why do you merely assume it was simply sister White? She is not the lynchpin of the Seventh-day Adventist movement. Christ Jesus is, His word (KJB) is. Many persons studying prayerfully their bible came to the conclusions before sister White received confirmation by vision.

    Actually they take a deeper consideration, apart from Roman Catholic leaning theology, of which most churches and seminaries have been infiltrated by the Jesuit order and their doctrine no longer looks like the doctrines of the Reformation and this was foretold in Revelation 17.
     
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2018
  14. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Again, you are simply going on a "Circle Chase" and have not once dealt with anything I have presented on this matter in any way. You are simply leaving a swath of texts for me to put back together after you cut your way through them with OSAS.

    Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
    Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

    Notice that the CONDITION is belief.

    Salvation is only assured so long as one "believes". That is the CONDITION that you keep not addressing.

    An "earnest" is merely a down payment, not the fullness. An "earnest" can be removed if belief in it ceases.

    2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.
    2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
    2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

    The Promises, including "eternal life" are "in Him" (Jesus). We only have access through "faith", or "belief". It is based upon CONDITION.

    Again the word "earnest" is simply downpayment, not the fullness.

    Do you even know why you are not given the fullness right now?

    They always cite Ephesians 2:8-9, and always skip vs 10:

    Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

    This is parallel to Titus:

    Tit 3:4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
    Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
    Tit 3:6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;
    Tit 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
    Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

    Thus the Commandments of God, and not the least of which is central is that of Exodus 20:8-11.
     
  15. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    I am most serious, and this matter even eternally deadly so a very "grave" thing.

    "Covered" sins, vs "Blotted Out" sins ...

    In the Sanctuary, the type/"pattern" [Exodus 25:1,8,9,40; Numbers 8:4; Joshua 22:28; 1 Chronicles 28:10-12,19; Ezekiel 43:10-12; Ephesians 1:20; Hebrews 8:1-6,, 9:23, 13:10; Daniel 8:11-14,26, 9:24, 11:31; Revelation 1:12,13, 3:7,8, 4:1,5, 11:1,19, 15:5 KJB] of the Plan of Redemption [Psalms 77:13 KJB], reveals that there are multiple stages of the eradication of sin, not just any single act of Jesus. The Cross was not the end, but the beginning, the laying of the Foundation Stone [it was that which was "finished" there, the perfect Character was laid, a sinless life, for it is impossible to have the Anti-typical Day of Atonement at the Cross for numerous scriptural reasons]:

    Psalms 32:1 KJB - [[[A Psalm] of David, Maschil.]] Blessed [is he whose] transgression [is] forgiven, [whose] sin [is] covered.

    Psalms 85:2 KJB - Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.

    It is clear that "forgiveness" is to "cover", not to "blot out", for to have ones "sins" "covered" "by the blood", which is "forgiveness", "remission", is "justification", and is not the same as having them "blotted out".

    Even a dictionary will reveal the same as that which scripture [KJB] shows.

    If Christ Jesus "blotted out" sins at the Cross, there was no need to "cover" anything, as there would be nothing to "cover". Since the shed blood of Christ Jesus did "cover" the sins, there is yet the need to blot them out.

    Just a simple Biblical examination of the words "cover" and "blot out" will reveal that they are not equal, for example on the word "cover[ed]" as found in Psalms 32:1, 85:2:

    Genesis 7:19 KJB - And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that [were] under the whole heaven, were covered.

    Genesis 7:20 KJB - Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered.

    Psalms 104:6 KJB - Thou coveredst it with the deep as [with] a garment: the waters stood above the mountains.

    Psalms 104:9 KJB - Thou hast set a bound that they may not pass over; that they turn not again to cover the earth.

    Exodus 33:22 KJB - And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

    Genesis 38:15 KJB - When Judah saw her, he thought her [to be] an harlot; because she had covered her face.

    Psalms 91:4 KJB - He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth [shall be thy] shield and buckler.

    Deuteronomy 33:12 KJB - And of Benjamin he said, The beloved of the LORD shall dwell in safety by him; and the LORD shall cover him all the day long, and he shall dwell between his shoulders.

    etc.

    Did the "covering" of waters in the days of Noah [Noe] erase the Mountains, or was Moses blotted out of existence by the hand of God, or those covered by the "Feathers" of God wiped out completely, or the Harlots face gone from behind a veil? Or rather did the "covering" simply place one thing over/on top of another thing, and both continued to exist, even protectively; like a dangerous hazmat container.

    Consider that the two things, [1] "cover" and [2] "blot out" are separate and distinct things, not equal to one another, for if one sins are not "covered" by the blood, then they cannot be later "blotted out":

    Nehemiah 4:5 KJB - And cover not their iniquity, and let not their sin be blotted out from before thee: for they have provoked thee to anger before the builders.

    Jeremiah 18:23 KJB - Yet, LORD, thou knowest all their counsel against me to slay me: forgive not their iniquity, neither blot out their sin from thy sight, but let them be overthrown before thee; deal thus with them in the time of thine anger.

    Notice the words "and" and "neither", which are words of 'in addition, added to, conjunction, moreover, besides, also' - the definition of and

    Furthermore we can re-examine the term "blot[ted] out", and see that it cannot mean of itself to "cover", as already shown:

    Psalms 69:28 KJB - Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous.

    Psalms 109:13 KJB - Let his posterity be cut off; [and] in the generation following let their name be blotted out.

    Psalms 109:14 KJB - Let the iniquity of his fathers be remembered with the LORD; and let not the sin of his mother be blotted out.
     
  16. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    What then of the passages referred to in Psalms 51:1,9 and Isaiah 44:22? Look at the context, and modifiers especially of Isaiah 44:22:

    Isaiah 44:22 KJB - I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee.

    Notice in this instance, there are word modifiers to "blot out", being "as a thick cloud" and "as a cloud", which alters this particular definition, from destroy completely to cover/conceal completely, as in blot out from sight, but not blot out from existence. This is how "clouds" in scripture are spoken as "covering" something, concealing it from view, but not causing it to cease from existence.

    For instance:

    Exodus 24:15 KJB - And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.

    Exodus 24:16 KJB - And the glory of the LORD abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days: and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

    Exodus 40:34 KJB - Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.

    We can see that when a "cloud" "covers" something, even as the "waters cover the sea", or thick clouds the Sun, or the "blood of the Lamb" "covers" sin/s, it is not gone, but concealed behind something, as clothing covers, as Christ's righteousness:

    Job 36:32 KJB - With clouds he covereth the light; and commandeth it [not to shine] by [the cloud] that cometh betwixt.

    Job 38:9 KJB - When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it,

    Psalm 105:39 KJB - He spread a cloud for a covering; and fire to give light in the night.

    Lamentations 3:44 KJB - Thou hast covered thyself with a cloud, that [our] prayer should not pass through.

    Ezekiel 32:7 KJB - And when I shall put thee out, I will cover the heaven, and make the stars thereof dark; I will cover the sun with a cloud, and the moon shall not give her light.

    Is the Sea gone being covered by waters? Is the Sun removed from existence being covered by the thick clouds? Is then the sins blotted out from existence from being covered as a thick cloud covers, or are they still in existence but out of present sight?

    This is the same as it is written here:

    Micah 7:19 KJB - He will turn again, he will have compassion upon us; he will subdue our iniquities; and thou wilt cast all their sins into the depths of the sea.

    Notice, that the sins are still in existence at the bottom of the "depths of the sea", even "covered by the waters", yet still needing to be dealt with which is exactly what Psalms 51 speaks of when it refers to the sins of David being blotted out [vs 1,9], since he knew of the Day of Atonement, in regards the Sanctuary:

    Psalm 51:4 KJB - Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done [this] evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, [and] be clear when thou judgest.

    Notice the two step process, which do not happen at the same time:

    [1] Mercy/hide face = forgiveness, and

    [2] Blot out the sins:

    Psalm 51:1 KJB - [[To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.]] Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

    Psalm 51:9 KJB - [1] Hide thy face from my sins, and [2] blot out all mine iniquities.

    It is clear that God would not have to "hide [cover] his face" from David's or our sins if doing so is to actually "blot" them out of existence. When the sins are truly "blotted out" God no longer has to "hide [cover] his face" from us, then we can see him face to face.

    This is why David could say, himself knowing, that there was no other "pattern" of way, and required the High Priest, the Sanctuary, Ark, Blood, confessed and forsaken sin, and the Day of Atonement [Leviticus 16, 23] etc:

    Psalms 77:13 KJB - Thy way, O God, is in the sanctuary: who is so great a God as our God?

    Exodus 28:15 KJB - And thou shalt make the breastplate of judgment with cunning work; after the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; [of] gold, [of] blue, and [of] purple, and [of] scarlet, and [of] fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.

    Exodus 28:29 KJB - And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy [place], for a memorial before the LORD continually.

    Exodus 28:30 KJB - And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the Urim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron's heart, when he goeth in before the LORD: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the LORD continually.

    For if in the Day of Atonement the confessed sin was not actually forsaken, or other sins picked up in its place and not confessed and also forsaken, that person could be "cut off" forever, no matter how many times they had come throughout the year with Sacrifice:

    Leviticus 23:29 KJB - For whatsoever soul [it be] that shall not be afflicted in that same day, he shall be cut off from among his people.

    This is made clear through the very "pattern", in which in Leviticus 4, "an atonement" [Leviticus 4:20,26,31,35 KJB] could be made on any day throughout the Year, by a person bringing the required sacrifice, etc, and so that persons sins could be confessed over the sacrifice, transferred to the flesh and blood, and then the blood would be taken into the Sanctuary, where it was 'stored'.

    While the person was "free", "justified", "forgiven", "covered", that person then had to go forth from the gate of the Sanctuary with the realization of the cost of sin to the Son of God and walk no more in sin [transgression of the Law, the Ten Commandments], and the Priest, and later High Priest had further work to do. This is the difference between atonements made in Leviticus 4 throughout the year, and the very specific and necessary Atonement in Leviticus 16, 23, in the Once a Year, the Day of Atonement.

    Now, what has the "forgiven" sinner need of the Day of Atonement and that which is therein, if any such sinner had already throughout the year, already brought their sacrifice and was "covered" by the "blood" and "forgiven"? Much everything.

    Differing Atonements. The first is for forgiveness, the latter for blotting out of the record of sin therein stored in the Sanctuary and its "cleansing" [Leviticus 16:19 KJB, etc]. It has been shown you many times about the Books of Heaven, and the sins therein recorded, yet it is connected with God's own people here, since the sinning must be eliminated totally from their lives, iow the actual committing of sin must be put to death through Christ Jesus.
     
  17. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Look again at the difference of the two things, [1] forgiveness and [2] blotting out:

    This is even seen in several other places, in various ways:

    1 John 1:9 KJB - If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

    [1] Forgiveness

    [2] Cleansing

    Two distinct things.

    Thus turning again to Acts 3:19-21, is already shown to be in the context of moments after the Cross, even after Pentecost and leading up to the Second Coming of Jesus Christ:

    Acts 3:19 KJB - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    Acts 3:20 KJB - And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

    Acts 3:21 KJB - Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

    The saints do not get to escape judgment, though they have an Advocate, Jesus Christ the Righteous:

    Psalms 7:11 KJB - God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry [with the wicked] every day.

    Psalms 37:33 KJB - The LORD will not leave him in his hand, nor condemn him when he is judged.

    Ecclesiastes 3:17 KJB - I said in mine heart, God shall judge the righteous and the wicked: for [there is] a time there for every purpose and for every work.

    Ecclesiastes 12:14 KJB - For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.

    As stated, there are the record Books of Heaven:

    Jeremiah 2:22 KJB - For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, [yet] thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.

    Isaiah 56:6 KJB - Behold, [it is] written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom,

    Isaiah 65:7 KJB - Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

    The "blotting out" in Colossians 2:14 is another matter entirely, since it deals with "handwriting" [Leviticus 8:36, 10:11; 2 Chronicles 35:6 KJB, etc] by Moses of "ordinances", speaking to the specific matters of "ordinances" [Numbers 9:12; Ezekiel 43:18, etc], hand written by Moses, in regards the Old Covenant ritual [see also Ephesians 2:15, "the law of commandments contained in ordinances" and Hebrews 9:1, "... the first covenant had also ordinances of divine service, and a worldly sanctuary." and Hebrews 9:10 "Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation."]:

    Colossians 2:14 KJB - Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    Q. Where is the word sin/s used here in regards to the "blotting out" in vs 14? It is not found at all in vs 14 and the "blotting out" does not reference the sins of vs 13, but is specifically identified in vs 14.

    Furthermore in vs 20, we see the word "ordinances" again used in connection with "worldly" human things, "the rudiments of the world" and "subject to ordinances", which are listed in vs 21-23, -- 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    The word "sins" is found in vs 13, but it speaks only of forgiven sins, which as demonstrated is not the same thing as sins "blotted out".

    What then of Hebrews 1:3 KJB?

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB - Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

    Hebrews 9:14 KJB - How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    Hebrews 1:3 KJB is speaking of the 'purging' or the "washing away" of our past sins from us by the one time all sufficient propitiative sacrifice of Jesus, for the word [καθαρισμός] utilized is also found in 2 Peter 1:9, "But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from 2512 his old sins."; and also used in Mark 1:44; Luke 2:22, 5:14; John 2:6, 3:25, besides Hebrews 1:3; 2 Peter 1:9. This is related to the word καθαρίζω, which means to cleanse, purify, or to free from the guilt of sin. Notice, it does not blot out any of the record of sin recorded in Heaven, but frees us from the guilt of past sins, by the forgiveness of past sins. Notice, none of the texts which uses the word καθαρισμός say anything about blotting out of the record of the sins in Heaven. This is why in Acts 22:16, and elsewhere, we may arise and "wash away [our] sins" [and a person washed can return to being unwashed, 2 Peter 2:22 KJB].

    Romans 3:25 KJB - Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

    Revelation 1:5 KJB - And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

    Psalms 85:2 KJB - Thou hast forgiven the iniquity of thy people, thou hast covered all their sin. Selah.

    But sin that is covered, is not blotted out, but remains to be dealt with still, therefore it is a period of probationary time granted, a time of testing, though we are free in Grace to live in obedience to His will [Psalms 40:8 KJB], we do not have to continue in abiding in Him, for our free choice is still ours, even throughout eternity, but if in spite of that Grace we live in sin still, Matthew 18 KJB, reveals, as did the type, there is the "Day of Atonement" to come to reckoning, and the payment could be reinstituted, and the person cut off of life forever.
     
  18. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Though we, which are Christians, are washed of past sins, the blotting out of sins was/is still yet future, for there was yet more to be dealt with still, even as the type revealed, given unto us by God in the earthly sanctuary service. A person which sinned [1 John 3:4 KJB], could come throughout the year and make "an atonement", but that person's sin while removed from them in faith, from themselves, went unto/transfered unto another, and further work was to be done even from the gate - in both directions. Justification is worthless without sanctification. Forgiveness of sins, worthless without victory over sins. This is the Everlasting Gospel, and Christ Jesus proved that sinful flesh, by the power of the divine, could live righteously and without sin - thus sin was condemned in the sinful flesh, and there is no excuse for sin - none. Satan is the liar. Mankind can obey God, even in His Ten Commandments by the indwelling of God in them, and every thought may be brought into subjection to Christ. Yes, we can have victory over every temptation and sin, here, now, in this life, even beginning this very moment - and we may do it even as Christ overcame.

    Acts 3:19 KJB - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

    "may be", "shall come", and in the context of the very next verse "ὅπως" [so that; KJB 'and'],

    Acts 3:20 KJB - And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

    Acts 3:21 KJB - Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    James speaks about the same:

    James 5:7 KJB - Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.

    Other texts to consider on the refreshing and latter rains, Deuteronomy 11:14; Job 29:23; Proverbs 16:15; Jeremiah 3:3 [especially that one], 5:24; Joel 2:23; Hosea 6:3; Zechariah 10:1 and Isaiah 28:12; Deuteronomy 32:2; Revelation 11:6; James 5:17; 1 Kings 17:1, 18:1,44-45; Matthew 7:25,27 [and that Latter Rain will come, and will ripen the Wheat Harvest, and also the Tare Harvest, the Rain comes to both, even as the Sun softens one, hardens another...]

    Notice, that the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord, which Christ will have then blotted out the sins in the Heavenly Most Holy, and then the Father sends Jesus Christ the second time after ward, as it is written:

    Hebrews 9:28 KJB - So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

    Hosea 6:3 KJB - Then shall we know, [if] we follow on to know the LORD: his going forth is prepared as the morning; and he shall come unto us as the rain, as the latter [and] former rain unto the earth.

    God will be vindicated, Romans 3:4 KJB. Not only did God prove it in Christ Jesus the Head, He is going to fulfill His promise and prove it many times over in the "144,000", for He will have taken sinners, and brought them about to the uttermost, into being total overcomers in sinful flesh - never to sin again, beginning on this earth, ready to be translated.

    Behold and marvel ye heavens, be humbled o earth, for what God is about to bring forth, never will be seen again throughout eternity!

    As the Head [Christ] was victorious and bruised the head of the serpent, even so the foot [of His body, the last portion, the remnant of the body] by Christ Jesus will so completely crush the serpent [Romans 16:20].

    Scripturally there are multiple "atonements", for instance:

    an "atonement" that could be done throughout the year on any day, "daily":

    Leviticus 4:20 KJB - And he shall do with the bullock as he did with the bullock for a sin offering, so shall he do with this: and the priest shall make an atonement for them, and it shall be forgiven them.

    Leviticus 4:26 KJB - And he shall burn all his fat upon the altar, as the fat of the sacrifice of peace offerings: and the priest shall make an atonement for him as concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him.

    Leviticus 4:31 KJB - And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn [it] upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.

    Leviticus 4:35 KJB - And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

    but "forgiveness" of sins, and this "an atonement" does not blot anything out of the record of that sin. The sinner was forgiven at the very gate, but more was then needed from that point onward, and could not be finalized until the Day of Atonement - see also Matthew 18, etc. Forgiveness/remission is but the covering of sin, not the blotting out of sin. Another thing that these passages reveal is that sin is not merely being born, but something that is "committed" [see also 1 John 3:4], and also even something omitted.

    Q. Yet if truly atoned and forgiven, why the need for the Day of Atonement services, which are a type? and ...

    Q. If forgiveness blotted out sin, why the need to remove, in the type, that which was in type, stored daily, and throughout the year?

    It is simple, forgiveness does not blot out sin. To blot out sin, another work is needed.

    and so there is the final "atonement" that could only be made once in the year, the Day of Atonement, that every single person must go through, or be cut off [Yom Kippur]:

    Leviticus 23:28 KJB - And ye shall do no work in that same day: for it [is] a day of atonement, to make an atonement for you before the LORD your God.
    Right back to Daniel 8:13-14,26, and the matter of the 7th Day, the Sabbath of the LORD thy God, a work of God that is coming to a close, soon it will again be said "It is finished".

    But we can look at places like Matthew 18, to see that sins can be unforgiven, uncovered and placed back upon the transgressor while the probation time is open.
     
  19. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    This judgment is witnessed in Matthew 18 and elsewhere:

    Matthew 18:27 KJB - Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

    This debtor was loosed by the compassion of the Lord and all his past sins were forgiven him by the Lord.

    Yet, we see by the very texts in continuing, these sins, though forgiven, were not yet blotted out, but remained for the Lord to deal with, and could be re-instated if unfaithful of the grace bestowed, or uncaring of the responsibility given in newness.

    We see that "all" the "debt" was "forgiven", but because of the servants attitude and behaviour in probationary time, failed of the grace of received, and was to then pay all.

    Matthew 18:32 KJB - Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I (the King who owns all things) forgave thee (debtor, who owes all things) all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

    Notice, the previous debt is re-instated to his account, in addition to that which the servant committed since then.

    Matthew 18:34 KJB - And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

    "wages" of sin is death.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

    However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.


    "This is the FIRST resurrection"

    Rev 20
    they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years

    The second coming event (Rev 19) and the first resurrection (Rev 20:1-6) are what start the 1000 year millennium clock ticking.

    Those in the first resurrection are saints.. "Blessed and holy" and over them the second death has no power at all. No wicked are raised in that "first resurrection" event of the "Blessed and holy".

    After the 1000 years you have the second resurrection... OVER THESE the second death DOES have power. And the second death is the lake of fire.

    There are no saints raised in the second resurrection.

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    In Daniel 7 (which apparently you are not reading) the judgment event described there takes place sometime after the downfall of the roman empire and after the 1260 years of dark ages... but before Christ comes and sets up His kingdom on Earth (According to Daniel 7... which apparently you are not reading).

    Rev 22 points out that when Jesus appears His "reward is with Him" the judgment of Daniel 7 is over.

    Rev 14 says that while nations are still on the Earth the time Comes when the Gospel message includes the message "the hour of His judgment HAS come"... no longer "WILL come".

    that happens before the Rev 19 second coming which means it happens before the Great White Throne Judgment of Rev 19.

    Is it is that Daniel 7 "pre-advent" judgment that I refer to -- meanwhile you are pointing to the judgment in Rev 20 that happens after the millennium
     
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