Investigative Judgment (Seventh day Adventists)

liberty of conscience

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May I say to you that if you think that sarcasm or attitude is going to overpower those who disagree with you, I or anyone else is going to go through ALL of the stuff you posted, you will be waiting for a long time my friend.

I will respond to ONE thing you said...…………
"Will you accept what scripture has said then, will you accept what has been shared now, or will you attempt to go to yet another scripture, which I will tell you in advance cannot help OSAS, but will demonstrate the futility of that dangerous doctrine. "

I for one can not change your opinions. I can only post what the Scriptures say.
You are free to believe any false doctrine you choose to and if you choose to live in the despair and depression of NOT KNOWING you are heaven bound, then God bless you my friend.

John 3:36......
"He that BELIEVETH on the Son hath everlasting life:. . ."

John 3:16...….
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

1 John 5:13...……..
"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that YE HAVE ETERNAL LIFE,. . ."

john 5:24...…...
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, HATH EVERLASTING LIFE,. . ."

What is the key word I already addressed? It is "believeth" (an ongoing action word, in the present, a verb, not merely a one time event in the past). Who does the believing, the person or God? It is the person. Can a person who once believed, cease to believe? Of course, for that is the point of condition, that we "believe", and God does not withhold from us our decision, whether we believe and continue in it, or whether we cease believing and no longer walk with God.

Yes, we (Christian) have "eternal life" (in Christ) so long as we "believeth" (that is the CONDITION). Salvation/redemption is not unconditional. It is "through faith". This is the conduit, with God's grace being the power provided. It is a relationship, a marriage.

You didn't address this point in the last response either.
 
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BobRyan

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Did Ellen Whiet teach that a true Christian in the Investigative Judgment lose their salvation?

The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.

You did not post the verses from Matthew 16 or from Romans 11.

I do not see anything in either production that would negate OSAS.

You want and asked for us to speak to your Bible verse but you are not posting those verses.
Remember....…..assumption is not Bible exegesis!

Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness Revoked
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

OSAS does not survive Matthew 18

Romans 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

OSAS does not survive Romans 11
 
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liberty of conscience

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I do not blame you my friend. I would not want to accept what a woman taught over what God teaches.

According to scripture (KJB) does God have record books in heaven of every thought, word and deed, yes/no?

According to scripture (KJB) does Jesus sit on a throne in the Heavens, yes/no?

Does a person have to be physically present in the direct presence of Jesus in order to be judged, yes/no? (there are examples in scripture)

If the answer to the first two previous questions was "yes" and "no" to the third, then a judgment can take place by 'proxy', or in otherwords, based upon what is upon record of the life in the Heavenly books, just as there are such cases upon the earth, wherein a defendant "appears" before a judge and seat and court, not in direct person, but by "representation" or "by proxy" or even by "record".
 
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BobRyan

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Heb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

Daniel 7 tells us that the judgment is - pre-advent. and that it is based on the content of what is in "the books" of heaven. (Call it "investigative").

Why are your posts avoiding the texts of scripture dealing with the topic?



Daniel 7 - (which apparently you are not reading) says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

Romans 2 - (which apparently you are not reading) details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

None of that is arguing that God does not already know the future.

Daniel 7 (which apparently you are not reading) says that in the courtroom are the "myriads and myriads" of sinless beings. And that "the court sat and the books were opened"..

It is not a matter of "God trying to figure something out" - rather like the case of the book of Job - it is God demonstrating something "to the group".

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isaiah 44:22)

And in Ezek 28 -- Satan has already been consumed - reduced to ashes
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

And when God speaks to Abraham "I have made you" a father of many nations when in fact at the time - Abraham had none.

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glorified form in Matthew 17 - on the mount of transfiguration BEFORE the cross. Fully forgiven before the blood of Christ had been shed. For Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" - the benefits of that sacrifice applied all the way back to Adam under the "ONE" Gospel of Gal 1:6-9, preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 and the basis of the new birth, forgiveness and justification in all ages.

I am going to stick with the Bible on this one.

hint: I was quoting the Bible... read the post.

1. First read your Bible.
2. Then tell us what you think about others... such as Ellen White.

All of my sins have already been forgiven and not held against me anymore by God, due to the death of Jesus in my stead for my sins, so what will be investigated?

Your response to the Bible texts listed above... noted.

Read more Bible.

For example of chapters you are ignoring --

Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.
12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

That was the Bible.

This next bit is mere creative writing

The Bible teaches that Christians shall be examined for their good works, in order to see if eternal rewards are kept/lost, but NEVER as to if keeping eternal life or not! !

Hello Bob.

You said.

=======================
Bob:
Daniel 7 - (which apparently you are not reading) says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"
======================

I read that text (Daniel 7:10), where does that verse say 'sinless beings'. May I ask what translation your reading from?

Daniel 7
“I kept looking
Until thrones were set up,
And the Ancient of Days took His seat
;
His vesture was like white snow
And the hair of His head like pure wool.
His throne was ablaze with flames,
Its wheels were a burning fire.
10 “A river of fire was flowing
And coming out from before Him;
Thousands upon thousands were attending Him,
And myriads upon myriads were standing before Him;
The court sat,
And the books were opened.

The Ancient of Days --- sinless
Those attending Him -- sinless

"Investigate" facts recorded in books
The court sat ... the books were opened
-- the action of the sinless beings described there.
Myriads standing before Him - are standing for service - His angels.

PreAdvent "Judgment"
21 “I was watching; and the same horn was making war against the saints, and prevailing against them, 22 until the Ancient of Days came, and a judgment was made in favor of the saints of the Most High, and the time came for the saints to possess the kingdom.

Saints are subjects in the future judgment
and a judgment
was made in favor of the saints

13 “I kept looking in the night visions,
And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 “And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Everyone in that courtroom - sinless beings.
 
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liberty of conscience

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How many of the 1050 are we to keep in the NT???

But bro. BobRyan, which of those, being quoted directly from the OT, should be kept? :)

Which of those in the context of 'jews', like all of the Gospels, should be kept? Like John 14:15? Should we throw this out too? I mean the 'Lord's supper' was originally only 'jews', on a 'thursday night' at that, what about that? Acts 15 is being directly cited from Levitical and Deuteronomic health law, which in the OT was for 'Israel', what about that?

Should we (Gentiles) toss Matthew 5? Romans 13:9? the whole book of Hebrews?
 
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BobRyan

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But bro. BobRyan, which of those, being quoted directly from the OT, should be kept? :)

Which of those in the context of 'jews', like all of the Gospels, should be kept? Like John 14:15? Should we throw this out too? I mean the 'Lord's supper' was originally only 'jews', on a 'thursday night' at that, what about that? Acts 15 is being directly cited from Levitical and Deuteronomic health law, which in the OT was for 'Israel', what about that?

Should we (Gentiles) toss Matthew 5? Romans 13:9? the whole book of Hebrews?

And of course Hebrew 8:6-12 "New Covenant" is a direct quote of Jer 31:31-33 and is unchanged in its statement that it is "for the house of Israel and the house of Judah"

oh the tangled webs they weave...
 
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Major1

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According to scripture (KJB) does God have record books in heaven of every thought, word and deed, yes/no?

According to scripture (KJB) does Jesus sit on a throne in the Heavens, yes/no?

Does a person have to be physically present in the direct presence of Jesus in order to be judged, yes/no? (there are examples in scripture)

If the answer to the first two previous questions was "yes" and "no" to the third, then a judgment can take place by 'proxy', or in otherwords, based upon what is upon record of the life in the Heavenly books, just as there are such cases upon the earth, wherein a defendant "appears" before a judge and seat and court, not in direct person, but by "representation" or "by proxy" or even by "record".

Excellent questions all.

1. In my understanding......Yes.

2.
The throne of God need not be thought of as a literal throne. God the Father is incorporeal as seen in John 4:24. That means it is not necessary He has a physical body, God does not literally “sit.” References to a divine throne are akin to biblical allusions to God’s “hand” or “mouth” or “eyes”—they are called "ANTHROPOMORPHISMS descriptions of God couched in human terms out of deference to our limited knowledge. God has to describe Himself in ways we can understand.
So then the bottom line to your question is NO.

3.
Once a person accepts and confesses Jesus as Lord, and believes that He was raised from the dead, he/she is saved (Romans 10:9,10). At that point, he/she is eligible to receive his/her treasures in heaven, upon death or after the Rapture.

The Judgment Seat of Christ is NOT for sins but for receiving the REWARDS earned AFTER we were saved.

The unsaved will not rise until after the Millennium has been completed. This will be at the Great White Throne judgment of God, and at that time they will be judged according to their deeds which have been written in books (Revelation 20:11-15). It seems that none of the names of the unsaved will be found written in the Book of Life, and they will experience the second death. It very well may be that those who accept Jesus, but who die during the Millennium, will be resurrected at this time. If so, their names will be found in the Book of Life, and they will be saved from the second death.

2 Corinthians 5:10...…..
"For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may receive what is due for what he has done in the body, whether good or evil."

So by those words I would say YES. "For we must ALL appear...……."!

The question then must be WHY do you think that only Mrs. White understood those teachings. ALL 3 you posted are well know Bible theological positions that really do not require any special understanding outside of simply reading the Bible itself.
 
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BobRyan

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According to scripture (KJB) does God have record books in heaven of every thought, word and deed, yes/no?

According to scripture (KJB) does Jesus sit on a throne in the Heavens, yes/no?

Does a person have to be physically present in the direct presence of Jesus in order to be judged, yes/no? (there are examples in scripture)

If the answer to the first two previous questions was "yes" and "no" to the third, then a judgment can take place by 'proxy', or in otherwords, based upon what is upon record of the life in the Heavenly books, just as there are such cases upon the earth, wherein a defendant "appears" before a judge and seat and court, not in direct person, but by "representation" or "by proxy" or even by "record".

Yes a literal throne... see Daniel 7 and Rev 4.

Some people will argue that Infinite God does not have "locality" -- but Moses was reminded about that being "totally false" at the burning bush.

Anyone who walked into the MHP in the wilderness would be instantly reminded of the falsehood of such thinking.

1. All of God's creatures have "locality"
2. They all worship God in the context of "locality".
3. God repeatedly draws a distinction between entering His direct presence in rebellion -- vs not.
 
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Major1

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The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.



Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness Revoked
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

OSAS does not survive Matthew 18

Romans 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

OSAS does not survive Romans 11

God bless you my friend and thank you for posting the Scriptures. If we can focus on them then usually any theological differences can be settled.

You have chosen Matthew 18:15 and have the understanding that Gods forgiveness is revoked. But that has nothing to do with OSAS now does it????

Mathew 18:15-18 CONTEXTUALLY Applies to a Sin Between Two Individual Christians.
The most common abuse I see with this text occurs by totally missing the context that this passage is addressing. This is not a Bible passage that should be applied to correcting every sin for every Christian nor is it about OSAS. These instructions by Jesus on how to bring correction and forgiveness are directed specifically to Christian individuals,

LOOK at the literal words in Verse 15...…..
“If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone”.

This is so important because often times people feel these verses should always be used to correct any Christian living in sin even if their sin was not directly against you and more recently to argue against OSAS.

But again, as YOU can see this three step plan of going to the individual, bringing two or three witnesses, and then bringing it to the church is a plan specifically given to someone who has been sinned directly against, “If your brother sins against you".


Then you used Romans 11:18. Actually those verses have nothing to do or say about OSAS. They are about ISRAEL and the Church IS NOT ISRAEL.

While you are ready to acknowledge that you were included in the covenant made with Abraham, and are now partakers of the same blessings with him, do not exult over, much less insult, the branches, his present descendants, whose place you now fill up, according to the election of grace: for remember, ye are not the root, nor do ye bear the root, but the root bears you. You have not been the means of deriving any blessing on the Jewish people; but through that very people, which you may be tempted to despise, all the blessing and excellencies which you enjoy have been communicated to you.
Source" Study Lite.com
 
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BobRyan

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Did Ellen Whiet teach that a true Christian in the Investigative Judgment lose their salvation?

The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.

You did not post the verses from Matthew 16 or from Romans 11.

I do not see anything in either production that would negate OSAS.

You want and asked for us to speak to your Bible verse but you are not posting those verses.
Remember....…..assumption is not Bible exegesis!

Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness Revoked
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

OSAS does not survive Matthew 18

Romans 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

OSAS does not survive Romans 11

God bless you my friend and thank you for posting the Scriptures.

As you may have noticed I don't quote anything else - unless it is a non-SDA source that I find helpful for the discussion.

If we can focus on them then usually any theological differences can be settled.

You have chosen Matthew 18:15 and have the understanding that Gods forgiveness is revoked. But that has nothing to do with OSAS now does it????

Depends on whether you think that people who have to pay for their own sins are saved ... which amounts to someone in the lake of fire (second death) being called "saved".

Is that how you define "saved"?

Mathew 18:15-18 CONTEXTUALLY Applies to a Sin Between Two Individual Christians.

Christ said "So shall My Father do to you" not "So shall your neighbor do to you".

This is a pretty large detail that makes all the difference in the world.

So while it is true that these sins (and "sin is the transgression of the law") between brothers deals with the moral law of God - the last six commandments -- still the one that "returns your debt" is God the Father according to Christ.

The servant in Matthew 18 does not owe his brother - he owes the king.

But then when that servant does not forgive his brother - the king returns the debt to him that he owed the king -- not the debt he owed his brother. IN fact the text points to no debt at all that he owed his brother.

Simply put - OSAS does not survive Matthew 18 "details".

This is a very big "elephant" in OSAS's living room.
 
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BobRyan

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Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

Romans 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

OSAS does not survive Romans 11

Then you used Romans 11:18. Actually those verses have nothing to do or say about OSAS. They are about ISRAEL and the Church IS NOT ISRAEL.

Romans 11 text above regarding gentiles is specifically talking about NOT Israel (Israel in the flesh) -- rather gentiles (in the flesh -- genetically).

Here is literal Israel --
Romans 11
I say then, has God cast away His people? Certainly not! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not cast away His people whom He foreknew.

7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8 Just as it is written:

“God has given them a spirit of stupor,
Eyes that they should not see
And ears that they should not hear,
To this very day.”

Literal Jews vs Literal Gentiles

11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!


Now specifically to literal gentiles:
13 For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry, 14 if by any means I may provoke to jealousy those who are my flesh and save some of them. 15 For if their being cast away is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 For if the firstfruit is holy, the lump is also holy; and if the root is holy, so are the branches. 17 And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, 18 do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you.

"Branches broken off" = literal Jews
"I am grafted in" = literal gentile
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.

Gentile saved by grace through faith
20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith.


OSAS crushed
Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

Saved gentiles were just told to "fear" because if they do not "continue" as they are today - then they too will be "cut off" just as lost literal Israel is today.

And OLAL once lost always lost is also refuted here. Literal Israel being offered a door back in "again".
23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.


Back to the "Gentile focus"
24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?

25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

While you are ready to acknowledge that you were included in the covenant made with Abraham, and are now partakers of the same blessings with him

And that you stand only by your faith. So now "fear" -- and why fear?

Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off.

That is a very big elephant in OSAS's living room.

OSAS does not survive Rom 11
 
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The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.



Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness Revoked
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

OSAS does not survive Matthew 18

Romans 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

OSAS does not survive Romans 11



As you may have noticed I don't quote anything else - unless it is a non-SDA source that I find helpful for the discussion.



Depends on whether you think that people who have to pay for their own sins are saved ... which amounts to someone in the lake of fire (second death) being called "saved".

Is that how you define "saved"?



Christ said "So shall My Father do to you" not "So shall your neighbor do to you".

This is a pretty large detail that makes all the difference in the world.

So while it is true that these sins (and "sin is the transgression of the law") between brothers deals with the moral law of God - the last six commandments -- still the one that "returns your debt" is God the Father according to Christ.

The servant in Matthew 18 does not owe his brother - he owes the king.

But then when that servant does not forgive his brother - the king returns the debt to him that he owed the king -- not the debt he owed his brother. IN fact the text points to no debt at all that he owed his brother.

Simply put - OSAS does not survive Matthew 18 "details".

This is a very big "elephant" in OSAS's living room.

I do not agree with your opinion. I am sorry that you have rejected my explination of the Scriptures you posted.

The truth is Matthew 18 and Romans 11 have NOTHING to do whatsoever with OSAS.

It is all about Church discipline.
 
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The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.



Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness Revoked
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

OSAS does not survive Matthew 18

Romans 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

OSAS does not survive Romans 11



As you may have noticed I don't quote anything else - unless it is a non-SDA source that I find helpful for the discussion.



Depends on whether you think that people who have to pay for their own sins are saved ... which amounts to someone in the lake of fire (second death) being called "saved".

Is that how you define "saved"?



Christ said "So shall My Father do to you" not "So shall your neighbor do to you".

This is a pretty large detail that makes all the difference in the world.

So while it is true that these sins (and "sin is the transgression of the law") between brothers deals with the moral law of God - the last six commandments -- still the one that "returns your debt" is God the Father according to Christ.

The servant in Matthew 18 does not owe his brother - he owes the king.

But then when that servant does not forgive his brother - the king returns the debt to him that he owed the king -- not the debt he owed his brother. IN fact the text points to no debt at all that he owed his brother.

Simply put - OSAS does not survive Matthew 18 "details".

This is a very big "elephant" in OSAS's living room.

I am finding it to be impossible to follow your theology as you jump from one thing to another way to often.

IF you would like to shorten your comments and FOCUS one ONE thing at a time I would be more than happy to speak with you.

If not, then I am out.
 
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Major1

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The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.



Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness Revoked
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

OSAS does not survive Matthew 18

Romans 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

OSAS does not survive Romans 11



As you may have noticed I don't quote anything else - unless it is a non-SDA source that I find helpful for the discussion.



Depends on whether you think that people who have to pay for their own sins are saved ... which amounts to someone in the lake of fire (second death) being called "saved".

Is that how you define "saved"?



Christ said "So shall My Father do to you" not "So shall your neighbor do to you".

This is a pretty large detail that makes all the difference in the world.

So while it is true that these sins (and "sin is the transgression of the law") between brothers deals with the moral law of God - the last six commandments -- still the one that "returns your debt" is God the Father according to Christ.

The servant in Matthew 18 does not owe his brother - he owes the king.

But then when that servant does not forgive his brother - the king returns the debt to him that he owed the king -- not the debt he owed his brother. IN fact the text points to no debt at all that he owed his brother.

Simply put - OSAS does not survive Matthew 18 "details".

This is a very big "elephant" in OSAS's living room.

Are you serious?????

The 2nd death is when all the lost of all the ages are resurrected and stand for judgment and then they are thrown into the lake of fire.
 
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liberty of conscience

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The servant in Matthew 18 does not owe his brother - he owes the king....

Simply put - OSAS does not survive Matthew 18 "details".

This is a very big "elephant" in OSAS's living room.

Let's pretend for a moment that the man in Matthew 18 owes his brother, instead of the King.

The King is Jesus, our "brother", Hebrews 2. Additionally, the man also wronged his fellow servant, and thus owed apology to that 'brother' also, but the primary focus is upon the relationship of servant to master (King) in that which is owed to this King, and then after this to his fellow subjects.

It is the King who "takes account", in a certain "day".

There is no escape from the conclusion in Matthew 18. The man was forgiven all, not in pretend, but in reality, but later this forgiveness was revoked.

Blood which covers, can be taken away and the sin that it covered be exposed. Even the commentaries get this:

Matthew 18:21-35, Forgiveness Revoked:

John Wesley [Methodist] Commentary on Matthew 18:34 -

"... How observable is this whole account; as well as the great inference our Lord draws from it: The debtor was freely and fully forgiven; He wilfully and grievously offended; His pardon was retracted, the whole debt required, and the offender delivered to the tormentors for ever. And shall we still say, but when we are once freely and fully forgiven, our pardon can never be retracted? Verily, verily, I say unto you, So likewise will my heavenly Father do to you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses. ..."

Matthew Henry [Non-Conformist] Commentary [read carefully please] on Matthew 18:21-35 -

"... here is forgiveness with God for the greatest sins, if they be repented of. Though the debt was vastly great, he forgave it all, Mat_18:32. Though our sins be very numerous and very heinous, yet, upon gospel terms, they may be pardoned. [3.] The forgiving of the debt is the loosing of the debtor; He loosed him. The obligation is cancelled, the judgment vacated; we never walk at liberty till our sins are forgiven. But observe, Though he discharged him from the penalty as a debtor, he did not discharge him from his duty as a servant. The pardon of sin doth not slacken, but strengthen, our obligations to obedience; and we must reckon it a favour that God is pleased to continue such wasteful servants as we have been in such a gainful service as his is, and should therefore deliver us, that we might serve him, Luk_1:74. I am thy servant, for thou hast loosed my bonds. ...

(2.) How he revoked his pardon and cancelled the acquittance, so that the judgment against him revived (Mat_18:34); He delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. ..."

The Pulpit Commentary [Rev. Joseph S. Exell and Henry Donald Maurice Spence-Jones] on Matthew 18:21-25 -

"... Christ’s teaching on this point has even a severe side—even his forgiveness may be revoked, if he finds, by our behaviour after forgiveness, that we were morally unfitted to receive it.—R.T. ..."

Jospeh Benson [Methodist] Commentary on Matthew 18:34 -

"... Who in like manner acknowledged his debt, and promised payment, showing thee, in his supplication, though thine equal, as much respect as thou showedst to me, thy lord and king? And his lord was wroth — Was exceedingly enraged; and delivered him to the tormentors — Not only revoked the grant of remission which he had just before made, as forfeited by so vile a behaviour; but put him in prison, commanding him to be there fettered and scourged; till he should pay all that was due unto him — That is, without any hope of release, for the immense debt which he owed he could never be able to pay. ..."

Preacher's Homiletical [Commentary]:

"... Mat_18:23-35. The unforgiving temper.—There is a fine story illustrative of this parable, told by Fleury (Hist. Eccles., 5:2, p. 334). It is briefly this: Between two Christians at Antioch enmity and division had fallen out; after a while one of them desired to be reconciled, but the other, who was a priest, refused. While it was thus with them, the persecution of Valerian began; and Sapricius, the priest, having boldly confessed himself a Christian, was on the way to death. Nicephorus met him, and again sued for peace, which was again refused. While he was seeking, and the other refusing, they arrived at the place of execution. He that should have been the martyr was here terrified, offered to sacrifice to the gods, and, despite the entreaties of the other, did so, making shipwreck of his faith; while Nicephorus, boldly confessing, stepped in his place, and received the crown which Sapricius lost. This whole story runs finely parallel with our parable. Before Sapricius could have had grace to confess thus to Christ, he must have had his own ten thousand talents forgiven; but, refusing to forgive a far lesser wrong, to put away the displeasure he had taken up on some infinitely lighter grounds against his brother, he forfeited all the advantages of his position, his Lord was angry, took away from his grace, and suffered him again to fall under those powers of evil from which he had once been delivered. It comes out, too, in this story, that it is not merely the outward wrong and outrage upon a brother, which constitutes a likeness to the unmerciful servant, but the unforgiving temper, even apart from all such.—Archbishop Trench. ..."

Ellicott's [Charles John, English Christian] Commentary on Matthew 18:35 -

"... Do also unto you.--The words cut through the meshes of many theological systems by which men have deceived themselves. Men have trusted in the self-assurance of justification, in the absolving words of the priest, as though they were final and irreversible. The parable teaches that the debt may come back. If faith does not work by love, it ceases to justify. If the man bind himself once again to his old evil nature, the absolution is annulled. The characters of the discharge are traced (to use another similitude) as in sympathetic ink, and appear or disappear according to the greater or less glow of the faith and love of the pardoned debtor. ..."

Coffman's [James Burton, Church of Christ] Commentaries on the Bible Matthew 18:21-35 -

"... The forgiveness the king extended to the unmerciful sinner was total, complete, and uncluttered with any penalties whatsoever. It would also have been permanent if the servant's conduct had not led to its revocation. That he later fell into condemnation was not due to any quality lacking in the full and free pardon that he received, but was due to his later conduct. ..."
 
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Major1

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The judgment does not cause anyone to go from being lost to saved... and it does not cause anyone who is saved to be become lost. The judgment is the Matt 7 action that Christ describes as that of looking at the tree. "By their fruits you shall know them" -- Looking at the tree does not change the tree.

However the Bible shows that OSAS is a false doctrine in places like MAtthew 18 "Forgiveness revoked" and in Romans 11.



Ok so Bible verses it is... nice to have that focus on this thread

Matthew 18 -- Forgiveness Revoked
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

OSAS does not survive Matthew 18

Romans 11
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again

OSAS does not survive Romans 11



As you may have noticed I don't quote anything else - unless it is a non-SDA source that I find helpful for the discussion.



Depends on whether you think that people who have to pay for their own sins are saved ... which amounts to someone in the lake of fire (second death) being called "saved".

Is that how you define "saved"?



Christ said "So shall My Father do to you" not "So shall your neighbor do to you".

This is a pretty large detail that makes all the difference in the world.

So while it is true that these sins (and "sin is the transgression of the law") between brothers deals with the moral law of God - the last six commandments -- still the one that "returns your debt" is God the Father according to Christ.

The servant in Matthew 18 does not owe his brother - he owes the king.

But then when that servant does not forgive his brother - the king returns the debt to him that he owed the king -- not the debt he owed his brother. IN fact the text points to no debt at all that he owed his brother.

Simply put - OSAS does not survive Matthew 18 "details".

This is a very big "elephant" in OSAS's living room.

Are you serious????

Matthew 18 has nothing to do with OSAS.

Jesus says that we must forgive from our hearts—not superficially or half-heartedly. That is the kind of forgiveness exudes warmth—that is likely to end in an embrace—that celebrates the end of the rift. There is nothing stingy about this forgiveness.

How can we manage to forgive like that, especially when we have suffered a grievous injury at the hands of the offender? Forgiveness from the heart is possible only by the grace of God. First, we need to understand at a deep level how God has forgiven us. Second, we need to pray for God to imbue us with his grace so that we can forgive the person who has sinned against us.

• If we forgive our brother or sister from our heart, how can we keep tabs to justify getting even later?

• If we forgive our brother or sister from the heart, how can we claim to forgive but not forget?

• If we forgive our brother or sister from the heart, how can we demand recompense for that which we have forgiven?

• If we forgive our brother or sister from the heart, how can we do anything other than to love them and to find pleasure in the reconciliation that our forgiveness has made possible?

A major purpose served by this radical requirement for forgiveness is harmony within the church. In verses 15-20, Jesus required us to seek out any Christian brother or sister with whom we had issues in an attempt to resolve those issues. Now he requires us to forgive our Christian brothers and sisters over and over and over again. Just imagine how frequently the cause of Christ is set back by our grudges and resentments. Just imagine how much more effective the church’s witness would be if we Christians practiced these two disciplines—seeking to resolve issues with fellow Christians and forgiving fellow Christians. Wouldn’t it be a wonderful world if we would do that!
Matthew 18:21-35 commentary, bible study
 
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No, he's known as bro BobRyan, though earnestly solemn with intent.

Mantra. The real evidence is before you.


Let’s review the concept of OSAS. The Bible clearly tells us that at the moment we first believed, we were given the seal of the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.

This confirms that our salvation is assured (Ephes. 1:13-14). Paul confirmed this in 2 Cor. 1:21-22 adding that God has taken ownership of us and it is He who makes us stand firm in Christ. The Bible also says that we’re saved by faith alone, not by works (Ephes. 2:8-9). So the basis for our salvation is belief, not behavior, and it’s guaranteed right from the start.

This is possible because all the sins of our life were forgiven at the cross (Colossians 2:13-14).

These are incredibly clear statements on the unconditional and durable nature of our salvation, and form the foundation for the OSAS view. To deny OSAS you have to believe that other statements in the Bible can rescind or contradict these promises. That means you believe that either God wasn’t sincere when He had Paul make them, or that He let Paul make a promise in His name that isn’t true, or that He changed His mind and revoked them.
OSAS And Hebrews 10 – Grace thru faith
 
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