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Investigative Judgment (Seventh day Adventists)

Discussion in 'Denomination Specific Theology' started by aemaleski, Sep 17, 2017.

  1. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Leviticus 16:
    Lev 16:7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the LORD at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.
    Lev 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat.
    Lev 16:9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the LORD'S lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.
    Lev 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

    Christ Jesus is both the Bullock and the Lord's Goat, but not the Scapegoat [Azaz'el, who is representing Satan/wicked].
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    That sort of pejorative villifying condemnation summary - is not Bible proof of anything at all.

    You merely proved my point - when you were confronted with the Bible details of Matthew 18 - you hold them at a distance... flat out ignore them... pretend Ellen White wrote Matthew 18 so you can ignore it?? what sort of nonsense is that??

    I am offering the Bible details in Matthew 18 -- and you respond with insults and accusations??

    So far we have "you" falsely accusing and we have "you" quoting Ellen White. that's it... that is your entire "sola scriptura" position.

    Must be "less than satisfying" for you. Or did you imagine that "we simply would not notice"??

    Indeed I keep pointing out the Matthew 18 details you are in such a rush to ignore.

    If you had paid attention to the discussion on that point on this thread - you would know that Matthew 18 and OSAS being refuted in scripture came up in response to someone saying that the Bible teaching in Dan 7 and 2 Cor 5 cannot be true since OSAS is true instead. (something to that effect).

    That is why time is spent to show how the Bible refutes OSAS.
     
  3. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    That would be a real pleasure -- I look forward to it happening.

    I am giving you an entire thread for that on Daniel 7 and I have given you that opening in Matthew 18 and in Romans 2 and in Romans 11 so far...

    Feel free to start - at any time.

    It is called "reading the Bible" and paying attention "to the details" ... each time you respond and show that you cannot address those details -- you are showing that your speculation and suggestions do not stand up to the details of scripture. There is an entire thread exposing your solution to that very issue. As we both know.

    With some creative writing and wild guesses which I then held up to the very details in the texts -- and then you resort to falling back to rant and "lets read some other text instead" solutions.

    Were we simply not supposed to notice??

    Seriously??
    You have I assume read those comments.

    That "your own apologetic website" is pretty funny when you then quote from AT and Spectrum (Same guys writing in that case) - those guys are a well known joke among Adventists. All fluff no substance. And you yourself have proven it to be the case.

    If you had found something substantive - something helpful in terms opposing the Bible details listed by me from Romans 2, Romans 6, 2Cor 5:10, Daniel 7 etc... you would have managed to quote it or use it by now.

    So far you have rant.. and pretty much nothing else to address the Bible details I keep raising.

    which leaves me the golden opportunity to 'keep raising' the same Bible verses your speculation "needs" to avoid.

    Were you thinking that we simply "would not notice"??
     
  4. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    I have read your sarcastic and rude responses on several other forums when your false doctrines are confronted and you are doing the very same thing here.

    I for one have better uses of my time that to argue with you.

    Good day my friend.
     
  5. bbbbbbb

    bbbbbbb Well-Known Member

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    That is precisely why I have ceased attempting any form of discussion with Bob.
     
  6. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Furthermore:

    Christ Jesus is both the Bullock and the Lord's Goat, but not the Scapegoat [Azaz'el, who is representing Satan/wicked], which is why there is the mentioning of the "lots":

    Leviticus 16:8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat

    There would be no need for "lots" to be cast if both were to represent Christ Jesus.

    "Lots" in scripture were always used to choose between two [or more] differing things, not one

    [Leviticus 16:8,9,10; Numbers 26:55,56, 33:54, 34:13, 36:2,3; Deuteronomy 32:9; Joshua 13:6, 14:2, 15:1, 16:1, 17:1,2,14,17, 18:6,8,10,11, 19:1,10,17,24,32,40,51, 21:4,5,6,8,10,20,40, 23:4; Judges 1:3, 20:9; 1 Samuel 14:41; 1 Chronicles 6:54,61,63,65, 16:18, 24:5,7,31, 25:8,9, 26:13,14,16; Esther 3:7, 9:24; Nehemiah 10:34, 11:1; Psalms 16:5, 22:18, 105:11, 125:3; Proverbs 1:14, 16:33, 18:18; Isaiah 17:14, 34:17, 57:6; Jeremiah 13:25; Ezekiel 24:6, 45:1, 47:22, 48:29; Daniel 12:13; Joel 3:3; Obadiah 1:11; Jonah 1:7; Micah 2:5; Nahum 3:10; Luke 1:9; Acts 1:26, 8:21, 13:19].

    Notice, that both goats receive a designation, "one lot for the LORD".

    How many for the LORD? Two or one? It is only "one".

    The other "lot" was not then "for the LORD", but rather for someone else, "the other lot for the scapegoat".

    Notice "for the scapegoat", not "for the LORD".

    Also notice, that the scapegoat was not to make atonement for the people of God or sanctuary, but with "him", the "scapegoat":

    Leviticus 16:10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness.

    The Scapegoat was also never sacrificed, but to be "presented alive before the LORD", for the reason of making "atonement with him", after which the scapegoat was to be "let ... go ... into the wilderness", representing the desolate earth during the 1,000 years:

    Satan [represented by the scapegoat, `aza'zel, not a sacrifice for sin, but ultimately responsible for all sin] then, after the Saints are "caught up" "to meet the Lord" "into the air" and the wicked are "brought low" and "slain" [to await their final sentencing in the Second resurrection after the 1000 years], is bound by his surrounding circumstance in the "1000 years" on the desolate Earth, the "wilderness" a "land not inhabited" [see Jeremiah 4:23-29, 25:33], where was once the "fruitful place", and he is bound and led away by the "strong man" [Jesus Christ; Psalms 19:5; Proverbs 24:5; Luke 11:22], just as Leviticus 16 and Revelation 20:1-3 reveal [for events beforehand compare also Leviticus 16:17 to Revelation 15:8, and also Leviticus 16:20; Isaiah 16:21 with Jesus coming out of Heaven to Hebrews 9:28]:

    And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy [place], until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel. - Leviticus 16:17

    [compare to]

    And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and no man was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels were fulfilled. - Revelation 15:8

    Then also:

    And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: - Leviticus 16:20

    For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain. - Isaiah 26:21

    [compare to]

    So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. - Hebrews 9:28

    Then also:

    And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the LORD, and the other lot for the scapegoat. - Leviticus 16:8

    But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the LORD, to make an atonement with him, [and] to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness. - Leviticus 16:10

    And when he hath made an end of reconciling the holy [place], and the tabernacle of the congregation, and the altar, he shall bring the live goat: - Leviticus 16:20

    [compare to...]

    And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. - Revelation 20:1

    Then:

    And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: - Leviticus 16:21

    And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness. - Leviticus 16:22

    [compare to...]

    And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, - Revelation 20:2

    And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season. - Revelation 20:3

    Satan is to be "presented alive" [Leviticus 16:10], and is not eliminated at the 2nd Advent, but is to be taken and "bound" by a "great chain" [see Lamentations 3:7; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 1:6, for this is no ordinary chain of metal, seeing the devil may break these [Luke 8:29, etc], but a chain of circumstance] and "let go" into "the wilderness" alive.

    "bottomless pit" is the Greek ἄβυσσος - abussos, and means, void, a desert wilderness [see also Luke 8:29 "into the wilderness", connected with Luke 8:31, "the deep", compare also to Mark 5:10, "away out of the country", out from cultivated and populated areas], see also LXX Genesis 1:2 "without form and void" - h de gh hn aoratos kai akataskeuastos kai skotos epanw ths abussou kai pneuma qeou epefereto epanw tou udatos, etc.

    Consider also texts, which speak of the, "after many days" [1,000 years], "And they shall be gathered together, [as] prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." Isaiah 24:22 and "After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land [that is] brought back from the sword, [and is] gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them." Ezekiel 38:8

    [see Gog and Magog in Revelation 20, see context in Ezekiel 38]

    The earth during the 1,000 years has no human inhabitant, for the earth is laid low by the 7 last plagues, destruction, 2nd Advent, the righteous are all "caught up together" [1 Thessalonians 4:15-17], and all of the wicked slain or remain slain until after the 1,000 years [Revelation 20:5a]. Satan is bound there, a place once of a Garden, a place once of Babylon the Great, now to become a "habitation of dragons" [Isaiah 34:14], "a parched ground", "thirsty land" [Isaiah 35:7]:

    And thorns shall come up in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses thereof: and it shall be an habitation of dragons, [and] a court for owls. Isaiah 34:14

    Dragon the symbol of satan, and owls the unclean night raptors/devils.
     
  7. woobadooba

    woobadooba Legend

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    I think you are taking words out of context and reading meaning into the Bible that isn't there.

    Anyone can have an opinion about God, but nobody has the right to sit in the seat of judgment against Him.

    Read Romans 9.
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    In Job 1 - God's Word -- his judgment is being tested/evaluated by those who are NOT God.

    in Job 2 - God's Word -- his judgment is being tested/evaluated by those who are NOT God.

    In Romans 3 -- Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

    God is being watched.. evaluated... and the conclusion as we see in Rev 15 is this -
    3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying:


    “Great and marvelous are Your works,
    Lord God Almighty!
    Just and true are Your ways,
    O King of the saints!
    4 Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?
    For You alone are holy.
    For all nations shall come and worship before You,
    For Your judgments have been manifested.”

    Not "arbitrary and fickle are your ways o King of the saints".

    In Rev 19 that evaluation is based on the deeds of God -
    After these things I heard a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying, “Alleluia! Salvation and glory and honor and power belong to the Lord our God! 2 For true and righteous are His judgments, because He has judged the great harlot who corrupted the earth with her fornication; and He has avenged on her the blood of His servants shed by her.”

    The creature does not have the "right" to observe and judge if his/her creator is just and true, righteous and fair.

    But GOD is sovereign and can "choose" to allow it.
     
  9. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Not at all woobadooba.

    I am not saying, by the verses cited that anyone sits in a jugdment seat against God.

    The verses are speaking about vindicating God's decisions/actions. Some serious business had gone down, because of sin, and some serious judgments of God have been handed down, such as the the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the destruction of the Amalekites, men, women and children and livestock, etc.

    Yet, in the end, all the things which God has decided and done, will be seen by all to have been Good at each step along the way, though some may have questions about this or that event here or there along the way.

    For instance:

    Rev 16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

    Notice, that even the messenger agrees with God's judgment, and that they agree, or "Amen" what God has done, because they see it is right. God is vindicated in this way.

    Therefore, please woobadooba, read again the verses I cited in this light.

    There are some beings that have questions about the motives and reasons of God for doing what God has done from the beginning, and all will be cleared up, and thus those considering God's character, as love, will see, that everything that God has done has been in harmony with that character of selfless love.

    I have read Romans 9. It does not contradict what I have shared from the other scriptures, but is in harmony with them.

    Is there any particular place you want to look at together?

    If I may ask you a personal question?

    What was the original and/or primary reason you left the Seventh-day Adventist movement? Just looking for the single reason that brought you eventually to your present position. If theological would you be specific, if relational, would you be willing to share?, etc.
     
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2018
  10. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    There are heated conversations, lively discussions, and I would ask for forgiveness, of anything that was over the top, too harsh, too abrupt, too uncharitable, too defensive.

    It is written:

    "... Our great Exemplar was exalted to be equal with God. He was high commander in heaven. All the holy angels delighted to bow before Him. "And again, when He bringeth in the First-begotten into the world, He saith, And let all the angels of God worship Him." Jesus took upon Himself our nature, laid aside His glory, majesty, and riches to perform his mission, to save that which was lost. He came not to be ministered unto, but to minister unto others. Jesus, when reviled, abused, and insulted, did not retaliate. "Who, when He was reviled, reviled not again." When the cruelty of man caused Him to suffer painful stripes and wounds, He threatened not, but committed Himself to Him who judgeth righteously. The apostle Paul exhorted his Philippian brethren: "Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: but made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men." Is the servant greater than his master? Christ has given us His life as a pattern, and we dishonor Him when we become jealous of every slight, and are ready to resent every injury, supposed or real. It is not an evidence of a noble mind to be prepared to defend self, to preserve our own dignity. We would [427] better suffer wrongfully a hundred times than wound the soul by a spirit of retaliation, or by giving vent to wrath. There is strength to be obtained of God. He can help. He can give grace and heavenly wisdom. If you ask in faith, you will receive; but you must watch unto prayer. Watch, pray, work, should be your watchword. {2T 426.2} ..."

    Therefore, if you would please give opportunity to try again, from the beginning, I would be willing to start over.

    Please, accept my apology for anything which was not in harmony with the above and if you have any questions that are personal to you, that you would like to know about what is believed by us from the scripture, please ask.

    Our goal is not to unnecessarily offend, though at times I can say I have not succeeded. Please accept, from a heart submitted to Jesus Christ, this appeal to you.
     
  11. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    God bless you my friend. That is what all apologies should look like and sound like.

    Of course, as a Christian believer I am commanded by the Lord Jesus to forgive and I am extremely happy to do so.

    Now, if there is "ONE" subject or ONE theological point that you would like to discus, please post it and I for one would be honored and blessed to talk with you about it.

    By discussing only ONE at a time, it limits confusion and "drifiting" from other things that tend to distract from the ONE thing we are discussing.

    May the Lord bless you my friend!
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    That sort of pejorative villifying condemnation summary - is not Bible proof of anything at all.

    You merely proved my point - when you were confronted with the Bible details of Matthew 18 - you hold them at a distance... flat out ignore them... pretend Ellen White wrote Matthew 18 so you can ignore it?? what sort of nonsense is that??

    I am offering the Bible details in Matthew 18 -- and you respond with insults and accusations??

    So far we have "you" falsely accusing and we have "you" quoting Ellen White. that's it... that is your entire "sola scriptura" position.

    Must be "less than satisfying" for you. Or did you imagine that "we simply would not notice"??

    Indeed I keep pointing out the Matthew 18 details you are in such a rush to ignore.

    If you had paid attention to the discussion on that point on this thread - you would know that Matthew 18 and OSAS being refuted in scripture came up in response to someone saying that the Bible teaching in Dan 7 and 2 Cor 5 cannot be true since OSAS is true instead. (something to that effect).

    That is why time is spent to show how the Bible refutes OSAS.

    Your false teaching has been repeated and exposed a number of times ... from scripture.

    And each time your response is more name-calling and pejoratives.

    You have free will - and can choose that low road if you wish.

    I am going to stick with the Word of God as it reads. As you have been shown repeatedly.
     
  13. Major1

    Major1 Well-Known Member

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    My dear friend. Indeed you keep posting Matthew 18 and I keep ignoring you because THERE IS NOTHING THERE TO VALIDATE YOUR THEOLOGY AGAINST OSAS.

    In fact I have responded TWICE to your postings on that Scripture.

    Matthew 18 is NOT ABOUT OSAS. It is however how to solve problems between believers.


    Now in as nice a Christians way as I can muster, IF YOU do not want to accept the ETERNAL SECURITY as a believer that Jesus Christ offers all of us...……..WONDERFUL!!!

    YOU go right ahead and believe whatever you want to believe and I will go right on believing that the God who saved me is powerful enough to keep me saved.

    Again...…..Matthew 18 contextual has NOTHING TO DO WITH LOSING YOUR SALVATION!

    Fortunately for YOU, believing you can lose your salvation does not affect your salvation. That is, your salvation is dependent upon accepting Jesus as Savior, trusting in His sin sacrifice, and looking to no one and nothing else. Fortunately, your salvation isn't dependent upon whether or not you think it is possible to lose your salvation.

    So then.....MERRY Christmas!!!!
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Junior Member

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    I think you have supposed that this works out well for your speculation that is disproven "in the text" of Matthew 18 that I keep quoting ... by not addressing the obvious flaw in your stated assumptions.

    I don't know why that sequence of Matthew 18 facts posted and you not responding to the text - is seen by you as a "negative for me". I actually am not dissatisfied with that arrangement and if it pleases you as well then we are both happy to see it.

    That is you "quoting you" -- you knew that right?

    On this thread we are looking for actual Bible evidence to see if something is true.

    In fact I have responded TWICE to your postings on that Scripture.

    Not in real life.. in real life the Matthew 18 text says the unforgiving servant does not owe his "fellow believer" but rather he "owes the king" which refutes your entire speculation at that point - so you solve it by "not addressing the point" - repeatedly. As IF that is somehow negating the text.

    In real life Christ said it is GOD that will do what the king did - not "your fellow believer" that will do it - if you do not forgive as you have been forgiven by GOD. Forgiveness "revoked". OSAS does not survive Matthew 18.

    Pretty simple and easy to see that obvious point.

    Believing Mathew 18 will not wreck your salvation as you point out - but what about ignoring the details... ignoring the warning Christ gives there - could that put someone at risk?? think about it.

    Merry Christmas to all.
     
  15. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    Thank you. I have been, and continue to be. :) and this is one of the reasons I share so much material, is so that others may also have the blessing I have, for all blessings from God, are to be shared among brethren, as the scripture says, "to profit withal".

    It is meant with all humility and sincerity.

    Ok. :) My heart is glad then, and rest has returned to my mind.

    I will try my best, for I am used to writing hundreds to thousands of pages of material in my own indepth bible studies (no exaggerating). Please know that which I share is not given to unnecessarily offend, but in evidence of what is being stated.

    If you would help me to know if I am drifting on subject at hand, I will keep this in mind, so that our conversation is fruitful, rather than frustrating.

    Thank you, and God has, and continues to do so, and that which I am sharing is also to bless you, for I received it of God, and if seen in this light, I pray that it helps this study between us.

    Okay.

    One subject.

    I will try to ask questions, so that we are both on the same page (understanding), and no question is to 'trap'. The questions are simply to see where we agree based in the text itself:

    Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

    Rev 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

    Revelation 14:6-7, speaks of "the hour of his (God's) judgment is (present tense) come", while "the everlasting gospel" is going into all the earth.

    Do you agree that there is a "judgment" of (by) God that begins at some point ("the hour is come") while the everlasting gospel is going into all the earth and is still ongoing at present?

    My answer is, "Yes, there is a judgment of (by) God that is right now taking place, and has been ongoing since it started (which we can look at in a minute, as to exactly when that was in time)."
     
  16. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    I haven't read all the posts and I'm sure this was already answered.

    That you were an SDA for over 25 years and do not know the answer to this question rather stuns me and makes me wonder what else you do not understand. Of course He is being judged! By the whole unfallen universe! Satan divided heaven, it is he that led away 1/3 of the angels to his side--and if you want to know how he did it--just read the story of Absalom and how he was leading away his father's followers to his side. Satan's methods don't change when he has a winning formula. Had God destroyed Satan all of heaven would have served Him out of fear--God let this thing play out. God was vindicated at the cross and the whole universe saw what Satan's way leads to.
     
  17. woobadooba

    woobadooba Legend

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    Both theological and relational. But it's useless talking about it at this point. I've been down that road. The SDA church is too stubborn and prideful to accept being wrong. Instead, they stamp those of us who disagree with one or more of their teachings as insubordinate, troublemakers, and agents of Satan. When people like me leave, instead of looking deeper for answers, they say it is the "shaking". Whatever! They say they are willing to change their beliefs if you can show them from the Bible they are in error. But they lie. They have been shown time and time again that they are in error on a number of things, but refuse to accept it.

    Thanks for the clarification. I can see where you are coming from now.
     
  18. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

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    That is not specifics, but generalities with no way to test what we are being accused of.

    This is what normally happens, especially when I ask for specifics, I get generalities and silence, which, first of all is not very brotherly like, especially since I do care about you (and any who leave, I have known several now), and am genuinely interested in you, and secondly, truth is important to me, and if something is indeed wrong (won't know until we can test the claim itself against scripture (KJB)) it needs to be addressed in charity (1 Corinthians 13; Revelation 3:19) and corrected to be in line with the standard, Jesus Christ.

    Yet, not with myself. Have you been 'down that road' with others here in these forums? If not, then all the more reason that we may rightly know the motive of your thought and actiion, and so that others reading may also test for themselves.

    We are Laodicea brother. There are many individual wrongs. I have been wrong on several occasions, even in character. I have had to apologize on several occasions to family, to friends, even to persons on this board.

    If you refer to a specific theological/prophetical point, I would ask, in all kindness, for you to name that exact point, so that we can specifically test it by the scripture.

    If we consider the history of the advent movement in general, even before the year 1863/4, there has been a coming out of error, darkness, and superstition, and a continuation of Reformation unto the final stages of this earth's history.

    I can look at your statement, and say, 'Yes', and 'No', depending on what you mean specifically. There are individuals in the wrong (in character, in theology, etc), there are groups of persons in the wrong (in character and in theology), there are printed materials that are in the wrong (in character and in theology), and on the whole, as stated, we, the Seventh-day Adventist are Laodicea.

    However, even with that said, there are those things, which we are generally accused of being in the 'wrong' for, which is inaccurate, for in 'those matters' we are in the right, and must stand against all who oppose in those specific things, because to turn from them, would be to deny the scripture itself. Therefore it is necessary to be specific in your reasons for leaving and in accusing (I do not say you do not have a valid complaint, but at the moment I have no way to test, having nothing to test, but only a vague generality at present, which is unfair to myself, and also to you).

    Yet, are we any different in this manner than Moses was?, King David was? or Peter was, or the Apostles themselves?

    Sometimes it does happen, even to good men such as M. L. Andreasen, who was removed from his ministerial position, and removed from the church itself by those who opposed the truth (there are enemies within, not merely without), and was only later post-humously re-instated. The man died a martyr for the truth of the Gospel. He is not the only one to suffer like this.

    Yet, how can we test your case, to see if it is like his, or if it is like unto D.M. Canright (and others), until we have specifics?

    There are such persons as you describe and I have met some, and yet there are others who have simply been deceived (and became 'agents' in this manner, as Eve to Adam), and led astray, and to those, we always call back home. Even D.M. Canright was given many opportunities to come back, and for awhile he did do so, and even admitted his many errors in character and theology, but was of a double mind, and so eventually left again (permanently).

    I cannot tell, presently, if what you describe is accurate or not, until you present specifics in why you left, and the original reason for so doing. The end result, is not the first seed. What was the seed brother? I am not here to mock, but here to understand why, and if there was error upon our part to apologize, to correct and to be corrected.

    There are two phases in the 'shaking'.

    [1] shaking in, settled together, as dry bones in a valley
    [2] shaking out, as chaff to the wheat

    This is scriptural. However, I cannot tell if it [2] applies to you, since I have no specifics, but generalities.

    There is nothing wrong with looking for truth. There is nothing wrong with taking time to consider what one believes (in fact, most need to do this, for there are too many which take things for granted, being generational (I am not so one, I came in by the leading of the Holy Ghost in several direct providences of God)).

    In fact, there were a few statements made by sister White in regards a certain conference and the members thereof, and it took me about 2 years to settle it in my mind (without denying any of the facts pertinent to it), after wrestling with God on what was stated, and I shelved it for some time, prayed over it, studied, compared line upon line, with scripture and the SoP/ToJ, and continued asking God for the truth and understanding. After a year, light shone upon part of the material that was given, and I thought I had the whole answer for some time, but began to think, something was still not together, and the picture was left incomplete. I shelved it in my mind again, and prayed more and continued to ask, and eventually came to study some more, and God gave me the final piece, and the answer is whole, harmonious, even perfect. I and my own brother were amazed at the simplicity of the answer, and yet it took nearly two years to sort it out.

    I would ask for specifics first, and not be too hasty to test, and if you are in the wrong, to admit, even as we must be ready to do.

    I would ask who "they" are specifically. For I, am one, who is always willing and ready to consider what I believe, for I seek not a denomination, but I have knelt down upon my knees in hot tears and directly asked God for truth. He has never ceased to give it to me, even when I have sometimes not always followed it so closely.

    If the specific is not in harmony with the bible (KJB), then it is indeed "error" and not "truth", and must be withstood. I have battled against many errors that have tried to creep in (and though trying to deliver the person/s from their error, many have refused to let them go, though there are a few cases where they did recover), and things you may never have heard of, or may have heard of. I have entered into with those who claim to be amongst us who teach errors great and small, and if you would like to know some of them, I will share privately with you.

    Again, please specific in who "they" are as generalities do not help in several ways, first of all, your own position and case.

    I for one, am willing to accept truth, for that is what I seek.

    This is again generalities, and cannot be properly tested. Be specific.

    I am not interested in what others have said, or others experienced (at present), for they are not here to test. I only asked for your specific reason for leaving, and the genesis of it. What was the original seed that brought about your present fruition?

    If one is merely speaking about general info available on websites, if truthful, you will find that most of them simple copy from one another, error and all, and have on many cases misrepresented the facts, and for those I always recommend - Ellen G. White

    Yet, I am only presently interested in your specific and original reason/s.

    Clarity and transparency is always good, for even the walls of New Jerusalem are clear and transparent, for with God, nothing is hid which is for our good.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
  19. woobadooba

    woobadooba Legend

    +856
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    I am under no obligation to debate the issues I have with the SDA church. And frankly, I don't have the time for it. [Staff edit].
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2019
  20. liberty of conscience

    liberty of conscience created anew

    374
    +125
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    True and I have no intention of forcing anyone to do any such thing. I am sincere in the offer still.

    Ok, do you plan on staying in this thread much longer to reply to LoveGod'sWord, BobRyan, Mmksparbud, myself, any further?

    The reason I am asking, is because you have come to this forum, and this thread, freely, and have attempted to 'debate' issues that you have with the Seventh-day Adventist theology in regards the Investigative Judgment, and when I desire to get to specifics, you now do not have the time, and this is not to say you don't have time at present, for things change and are fluid, but I am now looking to see if you are still remaining in this thread further, or if you may have time at a later period to discuss (even privately if you want, and you are always free to post anything I say therein openly).

    [Staff edit].
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 5, 2019
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