Investigative Judgment (Seventh day Adventists)

BobRyan

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. What do you want to discuss...…..
Investigative Judgment or Sola Scriptura???????????

I gave you an entire thread for that... you are ignoring that as well.

"that just happened" -- A moment ago #1
 
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Major1

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That would be a real pleasure -- I look forward to it happening.

I am giving you an entire thread for that on Daniel 7 and I have given you that opening in Matthew 18 and in Romans 2 and in Romans 11 so far...

Feel free to start - at any time.

This is exacly what YOU accused me of...……."Circling back to the same thing".

FOCUS!

You have hammered Daniel 7 now about 20 or so times. Do you really think that repetition will make what you believe believable to others?

I have already responded to Daniel 7, Matthew 18, Romans 2 and Romans 11 for you.

You have I assume read those comments.

Now from your own SDA apologetic website--- The Investigative Judgment Has Three Main Problems.......we read that one of the reason why I.J. is so controversial is because of its...……….

Inscrutability
"Supporting evidence for the I.J. is often hard to understand, convoluted, contradictory, very technical, highly debatable, inaccessible, or nonexistent. In other words, it is hardly the model of a secure and reasonable biblical doctrine.

a)For it to work, the I.J. requires that, on the basis of the scantest evidence, human beings confirm that on a given day, in a given month, in a given year, an action occurred, in an extra-universal realm, amidst divine beings; indeed, an action for which there is no possible detectable evidence, counter-action, or sign on Earth.

This is, again, unique, as a supposedly biblical schema. Indeed, the only evidence offered for this event is the reading of the supportive texts that, themselves, generate the hypothesis. This renders the argument, by definition, circular.

Which is exactly what you are doing!


But, most of all:

b) For it to work, the investigative judgment requires a theology, not of man, nor of angels, but, of extraterrestrials ("unfallen worlds"); i.e., a xenotheology. These xenomorphs, purportedly, are the recipients of God's advance judicial review, because human beings—otherwise the Bible's primary focus—certainly are not.

So, on p. 75 of the SDA Study Guide, alternately speaking, perhaps, of angels, the author argues, as a reason for the I.J., "Heavenly beings need to be sure that the saints are safe to save." But he offers no Biblical evidence or support for his point. He just says it.

Do I really have to say any more than that to you??????
 
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YeshuaFan

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You sure do like to 'run' at the mouth without substance (remember, you are to give account for every word). Mayhap you need to get some Holy Spirit imodium for that 'issue'.

If you could please stick to actual documented facts please. It would be less clutter on the forum, and more closely related to the actual OP and material presented in response. You do have a response for what was presented right?
There will be NO investigation of the Christians as to if they will still keep eternal life or not, as we are eternally secured into Christ by God, correct?
And do you agree totally with all of the Ellen White teachings, or any that you disagree with?
And if a Sda choose to not following Sabbath any more, and not see her as being a real prophetess, still saved?
 
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Major1

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That sort of pejorative villifying condemnation summary - is not Bible proof of anything at all.

You merely proved my point - when you were confronted with the Bible details of Matthew 18 - you hold them at a distance... flat out ignore them... pretend Ellen White wrote Matthew 18 so you can ignore it?? what sort of nonsense is that??

I am offering the Bible details in Matthew 18 -- and you respond with insults and accusations??

So far we have "you" falsely accusing and we have "you" quoting Ellen White. that's it... that is your entire "sola scriptura" position.

Must be "less than satisfying" for you. Or did you imagine that "we simply would not notice"??



Indeed I keep pointing out the Matthew 18 details you are in such a rush to ignore.

Again and again. Matthew 18 does not in any way validate Investigative Judgment.

From your activity else where on the internet forums, I see that you are just as argumentative and confrontational here as you are there.

You seem to be able to only argue against people instead of Scriptures, be rude and obnoxious.

The bottom line truth is what you want to reject your theology as coming from Ellen G. White instead of the Word of God.
 
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YeshuaFan

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This is exacly what YOU accused me of...……."Circling back to the same thing".

FOCUS!

You have hammered Daniel 7 now about 20 or so times. Do you really think that repetition will make what you believable to others?

I have already responded to Daniel 7, Matthew 18, Romans 2 and Romans 11 for you.

You have I assume read those comments.

Now from your own SDA apologetic website--- The Investigative Judgment Has Three Main Problems.......we read that one of the reason why I.J. is so controversial is because of its...……….

Inscrutability
"Supporting evidence for the I.J. is often hard to understand, convoluted, contradictory, very technical, highly debatable, inaccessible, or nonexistent. In other words, it is hardly the model of a secure and reasonable biblical doctrine.

a)For it to work, the I.J. requires that, on the basis of the scantest evidence, human beings confirm that on a given day, in a given month, in a given year, an action occurred, in an extra-universal realm, amidst divine beings; indeed, an action for which there is no possible detectable evidence, counter-action, or sign on Earth.

This is, again, unique, as a supposedly biblical schema. Indeed, the only evidence offered for this event is the reading of the supportive texts that, themselves, generate the hypothesis. This renders the argument, by definition, circular.

Which is exactly what you are doing!


But, most of all:

b) For it to work, the investigative judgment requires a theology, not of man, nor of angels, but, of extraterrestrials ("unfallen worlds"); i.e., a xenotheology. These xenomorphs, purportedly, are the recipients of God's advance judicial review, because human beings—otherwise the Bible's primary focus—certainly are not.

So, on p. 75 of the SDA Study Guide, alternately speaking, perhaps, of angels, the author argues, as a reason for the I.J., "Heavenly beings need to be sure that the saints are safe to save." But he offers no Biblical evidence or support for his point. He just says it.

Do I really have to say any more than that to you??????
My experience with those into the Sda is that they are blinded by what Ellen White wrote and stated concerning the scriptures. for they see her as the infallible guide to what scriptures really teach, and are just like talking to a JW or a Mormon on theology!
 
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YeshuaFan

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Again and again. Matthew 18 does not in any way validate Investigative Judgment.

From your activity else where on the internet forums, I see that you are just as argumentative and confrontational here as you are there.

You seem to be able to only argue against people instead of Scriptures, be rude and obnoxious.

The bottom line truth is what you want to reject your theology as coming from Ellen G. White instead of the Word of God.
Yes, for they see her as an infallible prophetess to the scriptures, even though most of what she taught and held to contradicts the word of God...
 
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Major1

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I gave you an entire thread for that... you are ignoring that as well.

"that just happened" -- A moment ago #1

If you JUST,,,,JUST made an entire thread for me...…..
HOW IN THE WORLD COULD I HAVE IGNORED IT IF YOU JUST DID IT???????

Now, does this mean that you are finished with THIS thread?

Focus my friend
 
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YeshuaFan

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If you JUST,,,,JUST made an entire thread for me...…..
HOW IN THE WORLD COULD I HAVE IGNORED IT IF YOU JUST DID IT???????

Now, does this mean that you are finished with THIS thread?

Focus my friend
Sda and Roman Catholics appear on various internet boards not to really have discussions, but to keep on propagating their false doctrines and dogmas...
 
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Major1

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Sda and Roman Catholics appear on various internet boards not to really have discussions, but to keep on propagating their false doctrines and dogmas...

That is the truth.

Our friend Bob Ryan is all over the internet doing just that.
 
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liberty of conscience

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I guess my biggest problem with SDA is the teaching of WORKS to be saved.
Aside from all the unnecessary bluster, not worth responding to, please provide the evidence that the Seventh-day Adventist teaches "salvation" by "works", or as you stated "WORKS to be saved".

You will find no such material in all the writings of sister White.

I do not believe any such thing, nor teach any such thing.

I (we) deny this false and unfounded accusation every time, and the accusation just keeps coming back, though no evidence is ever forthcoming that ever stands scrutiny.

We teach Ephesians 2:8-10; Titus 3:4-8, etc.

Salvation is by God's grace through faith ...
 
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liberty of conscience

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Jesus was not teaching that God’s power can be manipulated by man’s will, or that men can obligate God to do anything.
What? Where do you get that from in what was stated? That is the furthest thing from the truth. Do you always misrepresent the other position which differs from your own like this?
 
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liberty of conscience

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MUCH, MUCH too long of a post with way too many questions to respond to for me....

Real objective of you.

Pssst, just some advice, you may want to get the cliff notes for Isaiah, Jeremiah and Psalms 119. I hear they are kinda lengthy, even moreso than what I shared in a few small replies.

You might try Psalms 117 or Jude or Philemon. Might be just your size.
 
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liberty of conscience

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To assume that this passage gives believers some sort of blank check for anything it asks God for does not fit the context of the passage, and would be contradictory to the rest of Scripture.
What on earth are you talking about? Seriously. Are you on 'medication'? Is English your primary language?
 
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liberty of conscience

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Yes, for they see her as an infallible prophetess ...

[1] God And His Word Are Infallible

[2] The Men And The Prophets Of The Bible Are Not Infallible

[3] Sister White Is Not Infallible


Examples of each upon request:

[3] Sister White Is Not Infallible

Letter 27, May 16, 1876, par. 3 -

“... I wish that self should be hid in Jesus. I wish self to be crucified. I do not claim infallibility, or even perfection of Christian character. I am not free from mistakes and errors in my life. Had I followed my Saviour more closely, I should not have to mourn so much my unlikeness to His dear image. ...”

See also:

[1] Ellen G. White: The Lonely Years: 1876-1891 (Volume 3), page 34.5 (Arthur L. White) (1984)

[2] Ellen G. White: The Progressive Years: 1862-1876 (Volume 2), page 444.6 (Arthur L. White) (1986)

[3] 7MR - Manuscripts Releases Volume Seven [Nos. 419-525] (1990), MR No. 483 - The Spirit Of 1876 A Presentation On Ellen White Geared To The Bicentennial By R. W. Olson

[4] 20MR - Manuscripts Releases Volume Twenty [Nos. 1420-1500] (1993), MR No. 1426 - Ellen White Acknowledges Her Imperfection, page 23.3

[5] Daughters Of God (1998), Letters (Written May 10, 12, 16, and 17, 1876), page 272.6

Letter 10, June 9, 1895, par. 6 -

“... God help you, my dear nephew, to make deep and thorough work, that you may have a living connection with God, and then you can have a safe connection with men who are only fallible like yourself. In regard to infallibility, I never claimed it; God alone is infallible. His word is true, and in him is no variableness, or shadow of turning. {1888 1393.2} ...”

See also:

[1] Selected Messages Book 1 (1958), Chapter 2, Ellen G. White And Her Writings - A Letter To Dr. Paulson, St. Helena, California, June 14, 1906, page 37.4

[2] The Ellen G. White 1888 Materials (1987), Chapter 165 - To F. E. Belden, page 1393.2


Are there any other misrepresentations or mischaracterizations you would like to get off your chest now?
 
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liberty of conscience

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Now from your own SDA apologetic website
If you think 'spectrum' (or even 'a-today' for that matter) website is an Seventh-day Adventist apologetic website, you have not been paying attention to its Jesuit leaning doctrines and symbols over the years. That website is one of the most 'liberal' not-in-harmony with the SoP/ToJ or scripture websites. One might as well read out of the San Francisco Chronicle.

Go here for real apologetics, from a real Seventh-day Adventist perspective which is in harmony with the scripture (KJB) & SoP/ToJ -

awhn

or here - Messengers of Light Ministry
 
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bbbbbbb

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If you think 'spectrum' (or even 'a-today' for that matter) website is an Seventh-day Adventist apologetic website, you have not been paying attention to its Jesuit leaning doctrines and symbols over the years. That website is one of the most 'liberal' not-in-harmony with the SoP/ToJ or scripture websites. One might as well read out of the San Francisco Chronicle.

Go here for real apologetics, from a real Seventh-day Adventist perspective which is in harmony with the scripture (KJB) & SoP/ToJ -

awhn

or here - Messengers of Light Ministry

What is KJB?
 
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bbbbbbb

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King James Bible (the one I have in my hands, the prefectly preserved (Psalms 12:6-7) word of God in English)

Oh. Just for your information the 1611 translation of the Bible into English known as the KJV (King James Version) is not what you are holding in your hands. Actually, it is properly called the Authorised Version because King James I of England authorised it. The 1611 printing was in Gothic type face which is extremely difficult for modern people such as ourselves to read. Thus, one of the first changes to the AV was to print it in Roman type face, which is much more readable. Since that time the AV has been tweaked and improved so that you are now able to read it with a great amount of understanding.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Strawman. I said nothing about 1611. I said I have the preserved word of God in English in my hands, which is the King James Bible.

The Authorised Version was first printed in 1611. It did not exist prior to 1611. When it was published in 1611 it was published using Gothic type face which is barely readable today. And, yes, there are perfectly preserved copies of the original AV Bible. Unfortunately, they are primarily in museums today so that what you hold in your hands is a modified copy of the original AV Bible which was first printed in 1611.
 
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