Investigative Judgment (Seventh day Adventists)

[liberty of conscience]

I think it is best to examine every teaching about God in light of the Scriptures—just like the Bereans did.

Acts 17:11

Sure, the only way to do it, Isaiah 8:20.

Does the Bible support the idea that God is being judged?

Yes.

I see no such evidence of that.

It's a big deep book, let's look again shall we?

Psa_51:4 Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

Rom_3:4 God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.

Isa 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.

Rev_16:5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.

Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.

Rom_14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.

Php_2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Consider the OT typological events in the Bible also, such as Elijah at Mt. Carmel, wherein God set Himself against the false gods before the people.

Consider the NT wherein God, in Christ Jesus, set Himself against/contrast Barabbas (or pharisees, etc), or at the Cross, so that the people would see and choose and judge righteous judgment.

etc.

 

[BobRyan]

What exactly are the elements of this
Investigative Judgment teaching?

How does it relate to the nature of God?

Romans 2 shows exactly what they are doing in that judgment.

 

[BobRyan]

God will still have to evaluate how one lives their life after getting "saved," as he will want to make sure per Sda was still meriting salvation. That means keeping Sabbath, dietary laws, accepting Ellen White as inspired prophetess etc!

Or... you could just read Romans 2

 

[BobRyan]

I am IN. What are your thoughts???

Daniel 7 has the pre-advent judgment that is based on the content of what it calls "books" - judgment that takes place before the persecution of the saints ends and before the 2nd coming but after the split up of the roman empire

Of course this "Pre-Advent Judgment" is a SDA teaching. Of all the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the doctrine of the pre-Advent judgment beginning in heaven in 1844 has been questioned more than any other.

Which is why it would have helped if you had read Daniel 7 before posting.

It is generally agreed that there is a difference between classical prophecy, in which the prophet was God's spokesperson to His people in Old and New Testament times, and apocalyptic prophecy with its focus on the end of the world and the coming of the kingdom of God.

Turns out.. Daniel is God's prophet pointing out the pre-advent investigative judgment and where it fits into proper eschatology.

What that means in real life - is that simply ignoring that text of scripture while condemning what it teaches is not the most "compelling" solution for those who want a Bible-based answer on the topic.

We probably both knew that to start with.

WHY THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST POSITION IS FATALLY FLAWED.

It contradicts the teaching of Jesus.
The synoptic gospels in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 19 record Jesus’ Olivet discourse about last day events. One searches these chapters in vain for even a hint that his return will be followed by a 1000 year reign.

1. It is wildly imaginative to imagine that Adventists are the only pre-mill group when it comes to the second coming. The second coming is in Rev 19 and is followed by the 1000 year millennium in Rev 20. This is irrefutable. And it is why so many Christian denominations today are pre-mill when it comes to the 2nd coming. (Hint: Not just Adventists).

For Jesus the culmination of salvation history is the day of his own return.

“For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay each person for what he has done” Matt.16:27. (All scriptural quotations are from the ESV unless otherwise indicated)

“When the Son of Man comes…before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another.” Matt.25:31-46.

“The harvest is the end of the age… his angels… will gather out of his kingdom all …lawbreakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace…Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father.” Matt.13:24-30, 36-43

Jesus said that the day of his return will bring the resurrection of ALL the dead.
The Adventist Millennium Isn’t Biblical | Adventist Today

2 Peter 3 first tells us that a "1000 years is as a day" then describes the "Day of the Lord"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

That literal 1000 year period of Rev 20 is said in 2Peter 3 to be "the DAY of the LORD" where a literal 1000 year period "is as a DAY" with the Lord"[/quote][/quote]

 

[liberty of conscience]

The Sda teaches that we are just on a probationary salvation, as we can still forfeit it ...

Indeed, since the scripture does not teach OSAS. Examples:

1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13

OT - King Saul:

Saul was "turned into another man" (1 Sam. 10:6) and God had given him "another heart" (1 Sam. 10:9), and it was the LORD (JEHOVAH) that "anoint[ed]" (1 Sam. 10:1; 1 Sam. 15:1) him, and "set [him] up" (1 Sam. 15:11) and the "Spirit of God came upon him" (1 Sam. 10:10) and he "prophesied" (1 Sam. 10:10) among the prophets, for "God was with [him]" (1 Sam. 10:7), and the one who "sent [him]" (1 Sam. 15:18), for at this time, he "was little in [his] own sight" (1 Sam. 15:17), for "the LORD looketh upon the heart" (1 Sam. 16:7) even of Saul, for Saul knew the name of the "LORD" (1 Sam. 15:13) and "worshiped" (1 Sam. 15:31) God.

However, though Saul for a while was "another man", having "another heart", and the "Spirit of God", being at that time and for awhile "little in [his] own sight" (1 Sam. 15:17), he did not continue to follow and obey the voice of the LORD and keep his Law and so "he is turned back from following [God], and hath not performed [The LORD's] commandments" (1 Sam. 15:11), grieved away the Holy Ghost, and committed the unpardonable sin, and "the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul" (1 Sam. 16:14), and later because he refused to turn back (repent) to the LORD, "Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it" (1 Chron. 10:13).

Men have the freedom to "turn back from following" God at any time, even after being given "another heart".

Deut. 7:4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Deut. 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

This is not only in the OT, but in the NT also:

Acts 4:23-37, 5:1-11.

NT - Ananias and Sapphira:

Ananias and Sapphira were among "the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul" (Act. 4:32), and those who were "assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness" (Act. 4:31). Thy had claimed, as with all the others present, "ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common" (Act. 4:32), and "and great grace was upon them all" (Act. 4:33). Many of the persons present, "were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold" (Act. 4:34) and in so doing, "laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need" (Act. 4:35). A specific example of this among the believers who acted rightly in honesty, was "Joses" (Act. 4:36), who, "Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet." (Act. 4:36), and did not attempt to withhold anything, but gave all as promised (having vowed before God and all).

However, we are also given a contrast, of those among "them that believed" (Act. 4:32), once "filled with the Holy Ghost" (Act. 4:31), as "Joses" (Act. 4:36) was, and also made such a vow before "God" (Act. 5:4) and all, to "[sell] a possession" (Act. 5:1) and to "[bring] the prices of the things that were sold" (Act. 4:34), but instead of being faithful in their vow they had made, "Ananias, with Sapphira his wife" (Act. 5:1) decided to "[keep] back part of the price" (Act. 5:2) and "[bring only] a certain part" (Act. 5:2), seeking to hide their deed from the believers, while being noted among the believers as faithful to their vow. They had allowed "satan" to "[fill their] heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land" (Act. 5:3), and in so doing, "not lied unto men, but unto God" (Act. 5:4), even having "agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord" (Act. 5:9), and thus grieved away the Holy Ghost (allowing satan in), and committed the unpardonable sin against God, and so died in their sin, and "gave up the ghost" (Act. 5:5,10), and so "great fear came upon all the church" (Act. 5:11) and all that likewise heard it.

Peter was given information of Ananias and Sapphira's "hearts" (Act. 5:3,4) by the Holy Ghost (Act. 5:3), even the "Spirit of the Lord" (Act. 5:9), being "God" (Act. 5:4), for the Holy Ghost can share portions of His omniscience when needful.

This is a lesson for "all the church" (Act. 5:11), in that, just because a person at one time in their life "believed" (Act. 4:32), and was "filled with the Holy Ghost" (Act. 4:31), does not mean that they cannot of their own free will choose to walk away from God, or to cease from heeding the Holy Ghost, allowing satan in to cause eternal ruin. Sin is very serious.

This is why it is written:

Act. 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So, as both examples were given (OT: Saul, 1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13, and NT: Ananias and Sapphira, Acts 4:23-37, 5:1-11), we see that a Holy Spirit filled person can of their own choice/decision, turn away from their salvation, and become eternally lost.

John speaks about the sin unto the eternal (second) death. Not physical death. Notice the words, "I do not say that he shall pray for it" (1 Jhn. 5:16). Why? Because that sin which grieves away the Holy Ghost, "never hath forgiveness" (Mar. 3:29), which even King David knew, which is why He prayed, after his own sin with Bathsheba and the killing of Uriah, "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." (Psa. 51:11), because David knew to pray, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression." (Psa. 19:13), which "great trasngression" is the unpardonable sin.

1 Jhn. 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

The sin not unto death, are those sins, which are committed before the blaspheming away of the Holy Ghost. However, Ananias and Sapphira had grieved away the Holy Ghost, and as such, "satan" filled them, as was done in King Saul's case. No one in those places prayed for them, for their forgivenss, for the Holy Ghost already told Peter their hearts. Read it. They are eternally lost.

Christians indeed may commit the unpardonable sin, which is why we are warned and counselled:

Psalms 19:13 KJB - Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

We were given an example and ensample [1 Corinthians 10 KJB]:

Psalms 78:40 KJB - How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!

Psalms 78:41 KJB - Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

They died in the wilderness, through their unbelief, which brought disobedience, and the wages thereof.

The Holy Spirit may indeed be grieved away, and if so, He cannot seal you:

Ephesians 4:30 KJB - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We see another example in the Days of Noah [and thus shall it be in our day, the last generation]:

Genesis 6:3 KJB - And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Genesis 6:6 KJB - And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

But who did it start with? The "sons of God" [believers of men] who disobeyed, and followed not after God's commandments. Thus we see the same in the NT, as it was in the days of Noah:

Hebrews 6:4 KJB - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 KJB - And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 KJB - If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 6:7 KJB - For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Hebrews 6:8 KJB - But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

 

[Major1]

Daniel 7 has the pre-advent judgment that is based on the content of what it calls "books" - judgment that takes place before the persecution of the saints ends and before the 2nd coming but after the split up of the roman empire



Which is why it would have helped if you had read Daniel 7 before posting.



Turns out.. Daniel is God's prophet pointing out the pre-advent investigative judgment and where it fits into proper eschatology.

What that means in real life - is that simply ignoring that text of scripture while condemning what it teaches is not the most "compelling" solution for those who want a Bible-based answer on the topic.

We probably both knew that to start with.



1. It is wildly imaginative to imagine that Adventists are the only pre-mill group when it comes to the second coming. The second coming is in Rev 19 and is followed by the 1000 year millennium in Rev 20. This is irrefutable. And it is why so many Christian denominations today are pre-mill when it comes to the 2nd coming. (Hint: Not just Adventists).




2 Peter 3 first tells us that a "1000 years is as a day" then describes the "Day of the Lord"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

That literal 1000 year period of Rev 20 is said in 2Peter 3 to be "the DAY of the LORD" where a literal 1000 year period "is as a DAY" with the Lord"

[/quote][/QUOTE]

Seventh-day Adventists teach the following regarding the Investigative Judgment:

1. Christ moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary on October 22, 1844, and began a new phase of ministry

2. The first phase of the "Day of Atonement" is called the "cleansing of the Sanctuary." It involves a pre-Advent investigation and judging of God's people to determine whose sins will be removed from the Sanctuary. Christ started this judgment in 1844. At some point, near the end of time, Christ will begin judging living believers. During this Investigative Judgment God either blots out the sins of the believer, or he removes the name of the believer from the Book of Life.

3. Whenever one of God's followers commits a sin and asks foregiveness from God, that sin is transferred into the Most Holy Place of the heavenly Sanctuary. It remains there, in the Sanctuary, until the Investigative Judgment is completed. At the end of time, all the sins of the righteous are transferred from the Sanctuary onto the Scapegoat, who is Satan. Satan then suffers the final punishment for his sins and all the sins of the righteous.

That is what you are advocating!

However the Bible teaches that God already knows who the righteous are:

I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep… (John 10:14).
The Lord knoweth them that are His. (2 Tim. 2:19)

There is nothing that God does not already know.
Acts 15:18......
Known unto God are all His works from the beginning of the world.

When are sins blotted out?

The Adventist Church teaches the sins of the righteous are not blotted out until after the Investigative Judgment.

However, The Bible teaches that our sins are blotted out when we repent:

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isaiah 44:22)

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord. (Acts 3:19)

"…and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
(1 John 1:7)

Atonement completed at the Cross

The Adventist Church teaches that the Atonement is not finished until the Investigative Judgment is completed just prior to the second coming of Jesus.

But again, The Bible teaches the Atonement was finished when Jesus died on the Cross:

Jesus said, "It is finished." (John 19:30)

But this man [Jesus], after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. (Heb. 10:12-14)

The Bible teaches that Christ's atonement on the cross has perfected (past tense) His children. Christians are not made perfect during the Investigative Judgment period. If we are "in Christ," then we were made perfect 2,000 years ago through Christ's perfect sacrifice on Calvary.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom. 8:1)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom. 5:9)

Source:
Bible Truth vs Adventist Truth
Investigative Judgment

 

[Major1]

Indeed, since the scripture does not teach OSAS. Examples:

1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13

OT - King Saul:

Saul was "turned into another man" (1 Sam. 10:6) and God had given him "another heart" (1 Sam. 10:9), and it was the LORD (JEHOVAH) that "anoint[ed]" (1 Sam. 10:1; 1 Sam. 15:1) him, and "set [him] up" (1 Sam. 15:11) and the "Spirit of God came upon him" (1 Sam. 10:10) and he "prophesied" (1 Sam. 10:10) among the prophets, for "God was with [him]" (1 Sam. 10:7), and the one who "sent [him]" (1 Sam. 15:18), for at this time, he "was little in [his] own sight" (1 Sam. 15:17), for "the LORD looketh upon the heart" (1 Sam. 16:7) even of Saul, for Saul knew the name of the "LORD" (1 Sam. 15:13) and "worshiped" (1 Sam. 15:31) God.

However, though Saul for a while was "another man", having "another heart", and the "Spirit of God", being at that time and for awhile "little in [his] own sight" (1 Sam. 15:17), he did not continue to follow and obey the voice of the LORD and keep his Law and so "he is turned back from following [God], and hath not performed [The LORD's] commandments" (1 Sam. 15:11), grieved away the Holy Ghost, and committed the unpardonable sin, and "the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul" (1 Sam. 16:14), and later because he refused to turn back (repent) to the LORD, "Saul died for his transgression which he committed against the LORD, even against the word of the LORD, which he kept not, and also for asking counsel of one that had a familiar spirit, to enquire of it" (1 Chron. 10:13).

Men have the freedom to "turn back from following" God at any time, even after being given "another heart".

Deut. 7:4 For they will turn away thy son from following me, that they may serve other gods: so will the anger of the LORD be kindled against you, and destroy thee suddenly.

Deut. 11:16 Take heed to yourselves, that your heart be not deceived, and ye turn aside, and serve other gods, and worship them;

This is not only in the OT, but in the NT also:

Acts 4:23-37, 5:1-11.

NT - Ananias and Sapphira:

Ananias and Sapphira were among "the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul" (Act. 4:32), and those who were "assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness" (Act. 4:31). Thy had claimed, as with all the others present, "ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common" (Act. 4:32), and "and great grace was upon them all" (Act. 4:33). Many of the persons present, "were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold" (Act. 4:34) and in so doing, "laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need" (Act. 4:35). A specific example of this among the believers who acted rightly in honesty, was "Joses" (Act. 4:36), who, "Having land, sold it, and brought the money, and laid it at the apostles' feet." (Act. 4:36), and did not attempt to withhold anything, but gave all as promised (having vowed before God and all).

However, we are also given a contrast, of those among "them that believed" (Act. 4:32), once "filled with the Holy Ghost" (Act. 4:31), as "Joses" (Act. 4:36) was, and also made such a vow before "God" (Act. 5:4) and all, to "[sell] a possession" (Act. 5:1) and to "[bring] the prices of the things that were sold" (Act. 4:34), but instead of being faithful in their vow they had made, "Ananias, with Sapphira his wife" (Act. 5:1) decided to "[keep] back part of the price" (Act. 5:2) and "[bring only] a certain part" (Act. 5:2), seeking to hide their deed from the believers, while being noted among the believers as faithful to their vow. They had allowed "satan" to "[fill their] heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land" (Act. 5:3), and in so doing, "not lied unto men, but unto God" (Act. 5:4), even having "agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord" (Act. 5:9), and thus grieved away the Holy Ghost (allowing satan in), and committed the unpardonable sin against God, and so died in their sin, and "gave up the ghost" (Act. 5:5,10), and so "great fear came upon all the church" (Act. 5:11) and all that likewise heard it.

Peter was given information of Ananias and Sapphira's "hearts" (Act. 5:3,4) by the Holy Ghost (Act. 5:3), even the "Spirit of the Lord" (Act. 5:9), being "God" (Act. 5:4), for the Holy Ghost can share portions of His omniscience when needful.

This is a lesson for "all the church" (Act. 5:11), in that, just because a person at one time in their life "believed" (Act. 4:32), and was "filled with the Holy Ghost" (Act. 4:31), does not mean that they cannot of their own free will choose to walk away from God, or to cease from heeding the Holy Ghost, allowing satan in to cause eternal ruin. Sin is very serious.

This is why it is written:

Act. 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Heb. 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

So, as both examples were given (OT: Saul, 1 Sam. 10:1-13, 15:1-31, 16:1-15; 1 Chron. 10:13, and NT: Ananias and Sapphira, Acts 4:23-37, 5:1-11), we see that a Holy Spirit filled person can of their own choice/decision, turn away from their salvation, and become eternally lost.

John speaks about the sin unto the eternal (second) death. Not physical death. Notice the words, "I do not say that he shall pray for it" (1 Jhn. 5:16). Why? Because that sin which grieves away the Holy Ghost, "never hath forgiveness" (Mar. 3:29), which even King David knew, which is why He prayed, after his own sin with Bathsheba and the killing of Uriah, "Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me." (Psa. 51:11), because David knew to pray, "Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression." (Psa. 19:13), which "great trasngression" is the unpardonable sin.

1 Jhn. 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

The sin not unto death, are those sins, which are committed before the blaspheming away of the Holy Ghost. However, Ananias and Sapphira had grieved away the Holy Ghost, and as such, "satan" filled them, as was done in King Saul's case. No one in those places prayed for them, for their forgivenss, for the Holy Ghost already told Peter their hearts. Read it. They are eternally lost.

Christians indeed may commit the unpardonable sin, which is why we are warned and counselled:

Psalms 19:13 KJB - Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.

We were given an example and ensample [1 Corinthians 10 KJB]:

Psalms 78:40 KJB - How oft did they provoke him in the wilderness, and grieve him in the desert!

Psalms 78:41 KJB - Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.

They died in the wilderness, through their unbelief, which brought disobedience, and the wages thereof.

The Holy Spirit may indeed be grieved away, and if so, He cannot seal you:

Ephesians 4:30 KJB - And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We see another example in the Days of Noah [and thus shall it be in our day, the last generation]:

Genesis 6:3 KJB - And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Genesis 6:6 KJB - And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

But who did it start with? The "sons of God" [believers of men] who disobeyed, and followed not after God's commandments. Thus we see the same in the NT, as it was in the days of Noah:

Hebrews 6:4 KJB - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 KJB - And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 KJB - If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 6:7 KJB - For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Hebrews 6:8 KJB - But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

You said...…….
"Indeed, since the scripture does not teach OSAS."

I disagree.

John 3:15-18 says about Christ:...……
“The Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

The salvation in Christ is not temporary, it is eternal.

In John 10:28-30, Jesus says:...…….
“I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one."

Also, according to the Bible, if we could lose our salvation, then it would be lost forever, because Christ only died once for the payment of our sins.

To accept that we can lose our salvation means that the Scriptures must be rejected.

 

[BobRyan]

I am IN. What are your thoughts???

Daniel 7 has the pre-advent judgment that is based on the content of what it calls "books" - judgment that takes place before the persecution of the saints ends and before the 2nd coming but after the split up of the roman empire

Of course this "Pre-Advent Judgment" is a SDA teaching. Of all the doctrines of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the doctrine of the pre-Advent judgment beginning in heaven in 1844 has been questioned more than any other.

Which is why it would have helped if you had read Daniel 7 before posting.

It is generally agreed that there is a difference between classical prophecy, in which the prophet was God's spokesperson to His people in Old and New Testament times, and apocalyptic prophecy with its focus on the end of the world and the coming of the kingdom of God.

Turns out.. Daniel is God's prophet pointing out the pre-advent investigative judgment and where it fits into proper eschatology.

What that means in real life - is that simply ignoring that text of scripture while condemning what it teaches is not the most "compelling" solution for those who want a Bible-based answer on the topic.

We probably both knew that to start with.

WHY THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST POSITION IS FATALLY FLAWED.

It contradicts the teaching of Jesus.
The synoptic gospels in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 19 record Jesus’ Olivet discourse about last day events. One searches these chapters in vain for even a hint that his return will be followed by a 1000 year reign.

1. It is wildly imaginative to imagine that Adventists are the only pre-mill group when it comes to the second coming. The second coming is in Rev 19 and is followed by the 1000 year millennium in Rev 20. This is irrefutable. And it is why so many Christian denominations today are pre-mill when it comes to the 2nd coming. (Hint: Not just Adventists).

For Jesus the culmination of salvation history is the day of his own return.

“For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father and then he will repay each person for what he has done” Matt.16:27. (All scriptural quotations are from the ESV unless otherwise indicated)

“When the Son of Man comes…before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another.” Matt.25:31-46.

“The harvest is the end of the age… his angels… will gather out of his kingdom all …lawbreakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace…Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their father.” Matt.13:24-30, 36-43

Jesus said that the day of his return will bring the resurrection of ALL the dead.
The Adventist Millennium Isn’t Biblical | Adventist Today

2 Peter 3 first tells us that a "1000 years is as a day" then describes the "Day of the Lord"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

That literal 1000 year period of Rev 20 is said in 2Peter 3 to be "the DAY of the LORD" where a literal 1000 year period "is as a DAY" with the Lord"[/quote][/quote]

[/QUOTE]
Seventh-day Adventists teach the following regarding the Investigative Judgment:

1. Christ moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary on October 22, 1844, and began a new phase of ministry[/quote]

Heb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

Daniel 7 tells us that the judgment is - pre-advent. and that it is based on the content of what is in "the books" of heaven. (Call it "investigative").

Why are your posts avoiding the texts of scripture dealing with the topic?

However the Bible teaches that God already knows who the righteous are:

Daniel 7 - (which apparently you are not reading) says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

Romans 2 - (which apparently you are not reading) details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

None of that is arguing that God does not already know the future.

Daniel 7 (which apparently you are not reading) says that in the courtroom are the "myriads and myriads" of sinless beings. And that "the court sat and the books were opened"..

It is not a matter of "God trying to figure something out" - rather like the case of the book of Job - it is God demonstrating something "to the group".

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isaiah 44:22)

And in Ezek 28 -- Satan has already been consumed - reduced to ashes
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

And when God speaks to Abraham "I have made you" a father of many nations when in fact at the time - Abraham had none.

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glorified form in Matthew 17 - on the mount of transfiguration BEFORE the cross. Fully forgiven before the blood of Christ had been shed. For Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" - the benefits of that sacrifice applied all the way back to Adam under the "ONE" Gospel of Gal 1:6-9, preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 and the basis of the new birth, forgiveness and justification in all ages.

I am going to stick with the Bible on this one.

Bob

 

[Major1]

Daniel 7 has the pre-advent judgment that is based on the content of what it calls "books" - judgment that takes place before the persecution of the saints ends and before the 2nd coming but after the split up of the roman empire



Which is why it would have helped if you had read Daniel 7 before posting.



Turns out.. Daniel is God's prophet pointing out the pre-advent investigative judgment and where it fits into proper eschatology.

What that means in real life - is that simply ignoring that text of scripture while condemning what it teaches is not the most "compelling" solution for those who want a Bible-based answer on the topic.

We probably both knew that to start with.



1. It is wildly imaginative to imagine that Adventists are the only pre-mill group when it comes to the second coming. The second coming is in Rev 19 and is followed by the 1000 year millennium in Rev 20. This is irrefutable. And it is why so many Christian denominations today are pre-mill when it comes to the 2nd coming. (Hint: Not just Adventists).




2 Peter 3 first tells us that a "1000 years is as a day" then describes the "Day of the Lord"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

That literal 1000 year period of Rev 20 is said in 2Peter 3 to be "the DAY of the LORD" where a literal 1000 year period "is as a DAY" with the Lord"

This is way too long of a quote for me to respond. If you would like to stick with ONE thing at a time I will be glad to talk with you but I just can not deal with all the stuff you posted at one time.

I will respond to your thinking that I have not read Daniel 7. YES I have read it, taught it, and written about it.

In fact, if one does not understand the book of Daniel then one will never grasp the Revelation as it is the "UN-veiling" of Daniels's prophecy.

This is kind of a long posting. Would you like to shorten It up and deal with one thing at a time?

 

[YeshuaFan]

Here, this may help you - awhn

If you have any further questions, please let me know. Thank you.

The Investigative Judgment is not found in the Bible, as Christians shall be judged as unto good works and eternal rewards being kept/lost, but NOT eternal life!

 

[YeshuaFan]

Daniel 7 has the pre-advent judgment that is based on the content of what it calls "books" - judgment that takes place before the persecution of the saints ends and before the 2nd coming but after the split up of the roman empire



Which is why it would have helped if you had read Daniel 7 before posting.



Turns out.. Daniel is God's prophet pointing out the pre-advent investigative judgment and where it fits into proper eschatology.

What that means in real life - is that simply ignoring that text of scripture while condemning what it teaches is not the most "compelling" solution for those who want a Bible-based answer on the topic.

We probably both knew that to start with.



1. It is wildly imaginative to imagine that Adventists are the only pre-mill group when it comes to the second coming. The second coming is in Rev 19 and is followed by the 1000 year millennium in Rev 20. This is irrefutable. And it is why so many Christian denominations today are pre-mill when it comes to the 2nd coming. (Hint: Not just Adventists).




2 Peter 3 first tells us that a "1000 years is as a day" then describes the "Day of the Lord"

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness,

That literal 1000 year period of Rev 20 is said in 2Peter 3 to be "the DAY of the LORD" where a literal 1000 year period "is as a DAY" with the Lord"

[/quote]

[/QUOTE]
Seventh-day Adventists teach the following regarding the Investigative Judgment:

1. Christ moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary on October 22, 1844, and began a new phase of ministry[/quote]

Heb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

Daniel 7 tells us that the judgment is - pre-advent. and that it is based on the content of what is in "the books" of heaven. (Call it "investigative").

Why are your posts avoiding the texts of scripture dealing with the topic?



Daniel 7 - (which apparently you are not reading) says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

Romans 2 - (which apparently you are not reading) details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

None of that is arguing that God does not already know the future.

Daniel 7 (which apparently you are not reading) says that in the courtroom are the "myriads and myriads" of sinless beings. And that "the court sat and the books were opened"..

It is not a matter of "God trying to figure something out" - rather like the case of the book of Job - it is God demonstrating something "to the group".

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isaiah 44:22)

And in Ezek 28 -- Satan has already been consumed - reduced to ashes
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

And when God speaks to Abraham "I have made you" a father of many nations when in fact at the time - Abraham had none.

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glorified form in Matthew 17 - on the mount of transfiguration BEFORE the cross. Fully forgiven before the blood of Christ had been shed. For Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" - the benefits of that sacrifice applied all the way back to Adam under the "ONE" Gospel of Gal 1:6-9, preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 and the basis of the new birth, forgiveness and justification in all ages.

I am going to stick with the Bible on this one.

Bob[/QUOTE]
Ellen White did not receive this from God, as not found even in the Bible!
Christians shall be judged by good works, to see if will keep/lose eternal rewards, but NEVER judged as to if can keep eternal life or not!

 

[BobRyan]

There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Rom. 8:1)

Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (Rom. 5:9)

In Romans 8:4-10 it is the lost that "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they" -- not the saved.

In Romans 6 "you are slaves of the one that you obey"
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

In 1Cor 6 Paul says to the saints in the church --
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

 

[BobRyan]

The Investigative Judgment is not found in the Bible,

Until you read Daniel 7, Romans 2 ... 2Cor 5:10 etc.

 

[BobRyan]

============================================
Seventh-day Adventists teach the following regarding the Investigative Judgment:

1. Christ moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary on October 22, 1844, and began a new phase of ministry[/quote]

Heb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

Daniel 7 tells us that the judgment is - pre-advent. and that it is based on the content of what is in "the books" of heaven. (Call it "investigative").

Why are your posts avoiding the texts of scripture dealing with the topic?



Daniel 7 - (which apparently you are not reading) says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

Romans 2 - (which apparently you are not reading) details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

None of that is arguing that God does not already know the future.

Daniel 7 (which apparently you are not reading) says that in the courtroom are the "myriads and myriads" of sinless beings. And that "the court sat and the books were opened"..

It is not a matter of "God trying to figure something out" - rather like the case of the book of Job - it is God demonstrating something "to the group".

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isaiah 44:22)

And in Ezek 28 -- Satan has already been consumed - reduced to ashes
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

And when God speaks to Abraham "I have made you" a father of many nations when in fact at the time - Abraham had none.

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glorified form in Matthew 17 - on the mount of transfiguration BEFORE the cross. Fully forgiven before the blood of Christ had been shed. For Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" - the benefits of that sacrifice applied all the way back to Adam under the "ONE" Gospel of Gal 1:6-9, preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 and the basis of the new birth, forgiveness and justification in all ages.

I am going to stick with the Bible on this one.

Bob

Ellen White did not receive this from God, as not found even in the Bible!

hint: I was quoting the Bible... read the post.

1. First read your Bible.
2. Then tell us what you think about others... such as Ellen White.

 

[Major1]

This is kind of a long posting. Would you like to shorten It up and deal with one thing at a time?

I would say in responce to your long post that the Bible teaches that Christ's atonement on the cross has perfected (past tense) His children. Christians are not made perfect during the Investigative Judgment period. If we are "in Christ," then we were made perfect 2,000 years ago through Christ's perfect sacrifice on Calvary.

Rom. 8:1...….….
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Is that true or is it wronmg??????????

Rom. 5:9...….
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

 

[YeshuaFan]

In Romans 8:4-10 it is the lost that "do not submit to the Law of God - neither indeed can they" -- not the saved.

In Romans 6 "you are slaves of the one that you obey"
15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16 Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

In 1Cor 6 Paul says to the saints in the church --
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded? 8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

We are saved by the Grace of God, and then do the good works God has prepared for us beforehand to do, but as Paul shows in Galatians so well, we received the Holy Spirit by faith, and we now walk in faith and grace of God, not under the Law...
Keeping the Sabbath and dietary laws might puff one up as being now more spiritual, but really do nothing for us apart from Grace of God!

 

[YeshuaFan]

============================================
Seventh-day Adventists teach the following regarding the Investigative Judgment:

1. Christ moved from the Holy Place to the Most Holy Place in the heavenly sanctuary on October 22, 1844, and began a new phase of ministry

Heb 8:1 tells us that the "main point" is the work of Christ in that heavenly sanctuary.

Daniel 7 tells us that the judgment is - pre-advent. and that it is based on the content of what is in "the books" of heaven. (Call it "investigative").

Why are your posts avoiding the texts of scripture dealing with the topic?



Daniel 7 - (which apparently you are not reading) says that the result of the pre-advent investigative judgment is that "judgment is passed in favor of the saints"

Romans 2 - (which apparently you are not reading) details the process followed in judgment that differentiates between the saved and the lost.

None of that is arguing that God does not already know the future.

Daniel 7 (which apparently you are not reading) says that in the courtroom are the "myriads and myriads" of sinless beings. And that "the court sat and the books were opened"..

It is not a matter of "God trying to figure something out" - rather like the case of the book of Job - it is God demonstrating something "to the group".

I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, thy transgressions, and, as a cloud, thy sins: return unto me; for I have redeemed thee. (Isaiah 44:22)

And in Ezek 28 -- Satan has already been consumed - reduced to ashes
Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you;
It has consumed you,
And I have turned you to ashes on the earth
In the eyes of all who see you.

And when God speaks to Abraham "I have made you" a father of many nations when in fact at the time - Abraham had none.

Moses and Elijah stand "with Christ" in glorified form in Matthew 17 - on the mount of transfiguration BEFORE the cross. Fully forgiven before the blood of Christ had been shed. For Christ is the "Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world" - the benefits of that sacrifice applied all the way back to Adam under the "ONE" Gospel of Gal 1:6-9, preached to Abraham Gal 3:8 and the basis of the new birth, forgiveness and justification in all ages.

I am going to stick with the Bible on this one.

Bob



hint: I was quoting the Bible... read the post.

1. First read your Bible.
2. Then tell us what you think about others... such as Ellen White.[/QUOTE]
All of my sins have already been forgiven and not held against me anymore by God, due to the death of Jesus in my stead for my sins, so what will be investigated?

 

[YeshuaFan]

I would say in responce to your long post that the Bible teaches that Christ's atonement on the cross has perfected (past tense) His children. Christians are not made perfect during the Investigative Judgment period. If we are "in Christ," then we were made perfect 2,000 years ago through Christ's perfect sacrifice on Calvary.

Rom. 8:1...….….
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Is that true or is it wronmg??????????

Rom. 5:9...….
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

The Bible teaches that Christians shall be examined for their good works, in order to see if eternal rewards are kept/lost, but NEVER as to if keeping eternal life or not!
What is interesting is that many think that Romans had a scribal insert, as Paul original wrote that all in Christ period are now blameless!

 

[Major1]

This is kind of a long posting. Would you like to shorten It up and deal with one thing at a time?

I would say in responce to your long post that the Bible teaches that Christ's atonement on the cross has perfected (past tense) His children. Christians are not made perfect during the Investigative Judgment period. If we are "in Christ," then we were made perfect 2,000 years ago through Christ's perfect sacrifice on Calvary.

Rom. 8:1...….….
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Is that true or is it wronmg??????????

Rom. 5:9...….
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."

Until you read Daniel 7, Romans 2 ... 2Cor 5:10 etc.

Bob.
It is very insulting for you to keep telling us ………"READ THE BIBLE".

I would venture to say that some on this site have done more of that than you have and we simply do not look at it through the eyes of the SDA glasses.

 

[YeshuaFan]

I would say in responce to your long post that the Bible teaches that Christ's atonement on the cross has perfected (past tense) His children. Christians are not made perfect during the Investigative Judgment period. If we are "in Christ," then we were made perfect 2,000 years ago through Christ's perfect sacrifice on Calvary.

Rom. 8:1...….….
"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Is that true or is it wronmg??????????

Rom. 5:9...….
"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him."


Bob.
It is very insulting for you to keep telling us ………"READ THE BIBLE".

I would venture to say that some on this site have done more of that than you have and we simply do not look at it through the eyes of the SDA glasses.

He wants to keep saying that "my" 1689 Baptist Confession of faith supports his views, but it really does not, and more importantly, the Bible doesn't!