Intimacy

[chingchang]

THen the OT law of murder, adultery, stealing and lying are gone too then.
Is that your claim? Those laws are removed so people can murder, steal, lie
& have marital affairs all they want & it's kool with God?

Surely you jest. Do not those acts violate the command of our Savior to 'love our neighbor as ourselves'? Get real.

God defines love, not man. And He claims that His moral laws are
love.

And God also defines the sexual acts that he forbids...not you.

As God's word tells us, sin begets sin. One leads to the next and
you do more and more of it without shame or guilt.
(searing/dulling the conscience).

Its the crack of the pagans!

The way the world lives who think they can decide what's moral,
proves to me that we cannot live our own way & that God's way
is true and right.

I know atheists that show more love for neighbor than some of the fundamentalist Christians I know.

A Christian lives outside the world's self created standards.
& what I read in this thread from some are secular, worldly beliefs.

Do you cover your head when you pray and remain silent in Church?

2 Corinthians 3:6 (NIV):
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Do you want to reason together on this...or do you want to tell me how it is?

Hugs,
CC

 

[Zecryphon]

Really? So everybody who gives birth to a child out of wedlock is giving birth to a child God didn't have control in creating?
Had no influence in allowing to be concieved? That child is against God's plan? Against God's will? Children born as the result of sex outside of marriage shouldn't exist and are an affront to God? And as a result, any of the children they create are against God and shouldn't exist because at least one of their parents were never supposed to be born?

How do these questions address the verses or anything I posted regarding God's written word on sexual immorality? This line of questioning seems more along the lines of a strawman than actual discussion of the topic at hand.

If we were to believe premarital sex is never part of God's plan for our lives, we'd have to believe all babies born outside of wedlock are abominations.

I have provided the verses that address sexual immorality, which premarital sex definitely is. Now if you want to consider the babies born out of wedlock abominations, that's your choice of words, I personally wouldn't go that far. I will say that all children, regardless of whether they are born in wedlock or out of wedlock are born in sin, separated from God and are children of wrath. I'd provide scriptures here, but you don't respond to those, so there's really no point to doing that here.

The girl I work with, who's 8 months pregnant and unmarried, is carrying a baby not of God. When that baby is grown and having babies of his own, all of his children should not have existed because he shouldn't have existed. Why? Because their grandmother had sex outside of marriage and her child was never supposed to be and never part of God's plan.

I want you to remember later on in the discussion that it is you who is saying that these children born out of wedlock are not of God. No one else is saying that and no one else is agreeing with it.

In order to believe that premarital sex isn't part of God's plan for some people, you'd have to believe the results of premarital sex happen outside of God's influence and are beyond God's control. If that were true, God wouldn't be God, would he? It would mean entire lines of people exist who shouldn't exist because it wasn't God's will they be created.

Since you're going that way with this, let me say that there are entire lines of people who actually don't exist because of abortion. People have a free will in these matters. Will they use protection or not when they have sex outside of marriage. Will they use protection inside of marriage? Will they keep the baby they have made or will they murder the baby they have made? These are all questions that people have to answer for themselves. It doesn't mean God isn't God anymore because people have free will in non-spiritual matters.

I had premarital sex too and I did it when I was a "born again" Christian. Really I was a false convert.
​

Ah. Another follower of the "do as I say, not as I do" brigade. Premarital sex was justified when you were doing it, but now that you're married and it's no longer something you have to contend with, you were wrong, you are deeply sorry, and nobody else should do what you did.

There's a problem with your statement. Your statement assumes that when I was having premarital sex way back when, I was actually going around and telling other people not to do that. I wasn't doing that. So I think that pretty much blows your bogus accusation of me being a member of the "do as I say, not as I do crowd" out of the water. What is it with you and putting people into groups when you know next to nothing about the people with whom you're talking. From reading your posts Nadiine has her own religion and I'm a part of a group I never joined. Does it make you feel powerful or something to put people into groups so you can judge them and then chastise them for things they haven't done?

Nobody else should do what I did. But more importantly, I shouldn't have done what I did. But my first conversion to Christianity didn't take. I wasn't a true convert. I wasn't spiritually reborn with a new heart filled will new desires. I was simply convinced Christianity was true. It was an intellectual conversion. In an effort to educate you on the subject of my first conversion, since it's of such interest to you, read this blog post:

http://zecryphon.blogspot.com/2006/12/confession-from-false-convert-part-1.html

and

http://zecryphon.blogspot.com/2006/12/confession-from-false-convert-part-2.html

Considering over 97% of people had premarital sex before they themselves got married, you're not alone on this one.

I didn't think I was alone in this.

That's a statement of truth about me and has nothing to do with you and it is not a judgment against you, so please don't take it as such.
​

Even though it was intended to be, don't worry, I didn't take it personally. As I said, I chalk you up to another of the "do as I say, not as I do" club, a club who's philosophies I find pretty hard to take seriously.

Well you're gonna have to change your stance on that one as you don't know me well enough to chalk me up to being a part of any group.

God has made it clear in His written word how He feels about sexual immorality, which premarital sex definitely would be, since it violates the model of the first marriage we see in scripture in Eden.
​

If their union is supposed to be the model we all follow, apparently we are supposed to defy God's law and be thrown out of his favor for all eternity, and encourage our children to marry each other.

The incest that happened between Adam and Eve's offspring was allowed because God was fulfilling His plan of populating the earth. Of course, we don't know how much time passed between this incest and God destroying the earth. But after God promised not to destroy the earth with a flood again, He did allow incest to happen until He gave Moses the law forbidding it.

Considering their story resulted in their being cursed for eternity and losing their immortality, I don't see how that's something we want to model ourselves after. It didn't work out well for them.

Their marriage is not what caused them to fall from God's grace. Their willful sin is what caused that. So there is no reason from scripture or from you that would convince me to not follow their example and the example God has set.

Gen 2:24 Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh.
Gen 2:25 And the man and his wife were both naked and were not ashamed.
​

No mention or condemnation of premarital sex here.

That's because by the time they had sexual relations with each other, they were already joined together by God, so there was no premarital sex.

1Co 7:1 Now concerning the matters about which you wrote: "It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman."
1Co 7:2 But because of the temptation to sexual immorality, each man should have his own wife and each woman her own husband.
​

This passage says that we shouldn't be having sex at all... Not that we shouldn't have sex only in marriage. As for sexual immorality, who's to say if that refers to premarital sex or not? It sounds more like we're being told not to have affairs, not to abstain from premarital sex.

It was Paul's desire that men abstain from sexual relations as he did. But Paul also realized that not everyone was gifted with that ability as he was. So for those who could not control themselves, because they did not have the same gift as he did, he told them to marry and each man should have his own wife. Paul was addressing rampant sexual immorality in the church at Corinth, but that doesn't mean that his teaching here is only applicable to the church of Conrith.

Act 15:19 Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God,
Act 15:20 but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood.
​

There's no mention of premarital sex here either

There is mention of sexual immorality of which premarital sex definitely is as it is sex outside of marriage which is adultery. Do you consider adultery to be sexually moral behavior?

Listen, I'll cut to the chase. None of the passages you cherry-picked completely devoid of context state anything about premarital sex.

It's not cherry-picking. I have posted the verses that speak of sexual immorality. Now show me how they are devoid of context. In fact, show me anything other than your personal opinion on this matter that makes your view somehow more valid or more right than mine. You're great at throwing around accusations based upon zero information and you're great at lumping people into groups or religions to which they don't belong but you absolutely stink at supporting your beliefs with anything other than hearsay or opinion.

It's all about sexual immorality, which doesn't mean premarital sex.

It does when you realize that premarital sex is sex outside the bonds of marriage, which is adultery, which is actually forbidden in the 10 Commandments and again forbidden by Jesus in Matthew 5:27-28, where He raises the bar on what constitutes adultery. He said if you just look at a woman to lust after her, you have committed adultery with her in your heart. This is a very serious matter and is addressed as such throughout scripture.

You would like it to mean premarital sex, however, the passages are very negative about sexual immorality, which may or may not include premarital sex. Since God's plan for people very obviously includes premarital sex, it seems unlikely that premarital sex is included in that list.

You haven't proven that God's plan includes premarital sex. So why don't you start there? Hopefully you'll have something to support your statement other than opinion and hearsay.

All Nadiine has done is reiterate what God's written word says. She has not elevated herself to a position of authority over you. She has not martyred herself or established a new religion in her name. It is YOU who has done that to her.
​

Nadiine has done what she does in every thread... She shares the word of God according to Nadiine, damns everybody who doesn't roll over and agree with her, and then acts martyred when people have the nerve to disagree with her. It's the same act on every thread.

And you're different from her how? You accuse people of being the God of their own religions and lump people into crowds they're actually not members of. How is your behavior any more righteous or any more correct for a Christian to engage in. And I have never seen Nadiine do any of those things. I have seen someone else, who is far worse than Nadiine do them though.

I know that she's not truly at a level of authority over anybody, least of all me. Not being a follower of Nadiine's particular faith, I am not as affected as she feels I should be by her very specific righteous indignation.

Actually, you are very affected by what she writes because you spend so much of your posts to her refuting what she writes and falsely accusing her of things she hasn't done. So don't try and sit here and act like everything she says just rolls off of you like water off a duck's butt. Anybody who can read can see that your claim regarding how what Nadiine supposedly believes about you just doesn't hold any water.

 

[Zecryphon]

That all has to do with loving God.

None of which can be done until God takes action first and seeks you out to save you. Your loving of God is done in response to what He has first done for you. A lot of people tend to forget that.

 

[Zecryphon]

With love, with compassion, with respect and with an understanding of what they might be thinking. Give them honey and they are more likely to come back, give them vinegar and they will think you a ignorant and insane.

Okay, give me an example of what you would consider a compassionate encounter all honey and no vinegar.

 

[Zecryphon]

The pressure on Christians now is to be how the other christians want you to be, its all so legalistic.

I disagree. The pressure on Christians now is to be how the world wants us to be. Look at your own position. You want people to be all compassionate and dripping with honey and sweetness when they go out and evangelize. That's not the way Christ did it or any of the apostles. So why should we? To appease the wants of non-Christians. That's the only reason and there is a great deal of pressure put on Christians today to do just that. Because if we don't, then we're called unloving, and hate-filled and all sorts of other names that just aren't true, simply because people don't like how we share the law and gospel of Christ with the world.

 

[Zecryphon]

Peopel put too much into the laws and not enough into the beings themselves.

This is why I dont go to church.

Do you at least read your Bible every day or spend time in devotions with God?

 

[god's_pawn]

my goodness! this thread has traveled fast in its rather short life. if you all don't mind i'm going to skip over the replies and give my own to the original post.

I personally spend a great deal of time musing on the concept of a future spouse. i am not married, never have been, i have never had sex and in fact have never kissed a girl. why not? well, i've never had a girlfriend either (a couple fruitless crushes notwithstanding). so one could just blame it on lack of opertunity but actually i've made a point of not doing any of things and i intend to continue doing so because i want to save each of those firsts for the one whom i will one day marry. why? because i believe that these experiences are special and worth saving for the one i'll be doing them with for the rest of my life. it's not about satisfying my pleasure, it's an act of love towards someone that i may not have even met yet.

i think a peck on the cheek is something that is a step short of a kiss on the lips. that kiss on the lips you may not immediately go for but after a few pecks on the cheek you've made that one step closer and so it's just a little bit more, not the big step of the kiss on the lips. perhaps a few of those and then you feel like it's not too much more to go a little further, maybe 2 kisses in a row or kissing for an extra second. evenetually you're making out without even realizing the progression you've been makinging.
obviously, the final step can be sex itself, perhaps even before marriage. i'm not going to get into the issue of whether or not sex is restricted to within marriage only but still, you can see the progression. i hesitate to call them compromises but it's a similar concept. no it's not a sudden thing, but gradual enough so that you don't notice it until it's all over. it's like the example of the frog in the cooking pot. you don't drop the frog into the boiling water for he'll just hop right out, rather you put the frog in the pot when the water is cool and then you slowly heat the water and the frog never realizes it. i know that this isn't what happens everytime, but that's how it does happen if it does. a little more here, a little more there and thus yes, kissing can lead to sex, but not necessarily.

 

[david_x]

Nah...the Church is simply the folks that are saved. They might be congregating and worshiping the creator...or they might all be at home or at work...they are still "the Church" no matter what they are doing or where they are physically. Ideally we'd gather with other believers and share our lives...resources and insight with one-another. However...I can identify with those that have been turned-off by various legalistic and/or fundamentalist church experiences.

Hopefully I wasn't confused in what you were stating...

Hugs,
CC

You would be correct, but I was not addressing the Church. I was addressing a Church.

 

[david_x]

None of which can be done until God takes action first and seeks you out to save you. Your loving of God is done in response to what He has first done for you. A lot of people tend to forget that.

Behold He stands at the door and knocks, he is always there because he always loves us. There is no seeking.

 

[elephunky]

I disagree. The pressure on Christians now is to be how the world wants us to be. Look at your own position. You want people to be all compassionate and dripping with honey and sweetness when they go out and evangelize. That's not the way Christ did it or any of the apostles. So why should we? To appease the wants of non-Christians. That's the only reason and there is a great deal of pressure put on Christians today to do just that. Because if we don't, then we're called unloving, and hate-filled and all sorts of other names that just aren't true, simply because people don't like how we share the law and gospel of Christ with the world.

No, the world istn pressuring us to be the way they want us to be. The pressure from teh world is to shut up and stop ramming our opinions down everyones throats.

I lot of Christians that I have known have turned away because of other christians. Not because of hte world, but because of other christians.

 

[Thaeoles]

Behold He stands at the door and knocks, he is always there because he always loves us. There is no seeking.

Is that a direct quote from the Bible or just a crafty phrase pulled from a mixture of verses?

 

[david_x]

Is that a direct quote from the Bible or just a crafty phrase pulled from a mixture of verses?

General Idea....not important. Don't avoid the point. He does not hunt people down, he is always there waiting.

 

[Thaeoles]

General Idea....not important. Don't avoid the point. He does not hunt people down, he is always there waiting.

I disagree, but if I were to go into detail, then this would turn into a calvinism debate.

 

[elephunky]

I presume you are talking about Jesus?

20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

It doesnt say he will bash teh door in and make you eat with him

 

[Nadiine]

Originally Posted by david_x

Behold He stands at the door and knocks, he is always there because he always loves us. There is no seeking.
​

God does ALL the seeking actually.
God CHOSE His disciples - He chooses us; predestination.
(no I'm not a full blown Calvanist either) - but He does choose us.

We're "dead in sin" - we are at odds with God by nature and we don't seek Him on our own in our natural [dead] spiritual status.
God first seeks US out & draws us to Himself. It's only then
that we can accept Him after He's enabled us to see the truth
from Him.

Even after salvation, it's God who causes us to even Will
to continue with Him. We need His continual working in us
even after spiritual regeneration.

Apart from HIM, we can do nothing nor would we want to.
Philippians 2:13
for it is God who is at work in you,
both to will and to work for His good pleasure.


John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:43-45 (in Context) John 6 (Whole Chapter)
Romans 3:10-12


10as it is written,
"THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;
11THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS,
THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD;
12ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS;
THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD,
THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."

(not my caps)

​

 

[Zecryphon]

No, the world istn pressuring us to be the way they want us to be. The pressure from teh world is to shut up and stop ramming our opinions down everyones throats.

I lot of Christians that I have known have turned away because of other christians. Not because of hte world, but because of other christians.

Look at your own statement here. What does the world want? In your own words "the pressure upon Christians is to shut up and stop ramming our opinions down everyone's throat." In essence, they want us to ignore the command of Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior as given in Matthew 28:19-20, where He commands His apostles to go into the nations of the world and teach them all He has taught His disciples and to baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

The world is a lot more tolerant of other religions than they are of Christianity. Why is that? Other religions promote their faith just as much if not more than Christians. Scientologists do it, Hari Krishnas do it, Moonies do it, Mormons do it, Jehovah's Witnesses do it, Kabbalists do it, and they're just as forceful and intrusive as some Christians. So it's not just Christians who go about out into the world and share their faith, yet we're the ones who are constantly told to shut up and go away. Ever wonder why that is?

 

[Zecryphon]

I presume you are talking about Jesus?

20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

It doesnt say he will bash teh door in and make you eat with him

So which Christians have bashed your door in and made you eat with them?

 

[Zecryphon]

Behold He stands at the door and knocks, he is always there because he always loves us. There is no seeking.

I think you need to read in your Bible the following verses and meditate upon what they mean.

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Joh 6:45 It is written in the Prophets, 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me--

Rom 3:10 as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; Rom 3:11 no one understands; no one seeks for God. Rom 3:11 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." Rom 3:13 "Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive." "The venom of asps is under their lips." Rom 3:14 "Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness." Rom 3:15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood;Rom 3:16 in their paths are ruin and misery, Rom 3:17 and the way of peace they have not known.", Rom 3:18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. Rom 3:20 For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin. Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it-- Rom 3:22 the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: Rom 3:23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, Rom 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, Rom 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. Rom 3:26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Rom 3:27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith.

 

[Zecryphon]

General Idea....not important. Don't avoid the point. He does not hunt people down, he is always there waiting.

Actually it is important because it's very misleading and directly contradicts what the scriptures teach about salvation. Such a statement reveals that you believe, even though you have not said so, that Jesus is just waiting around doing nothing, hoping you'll ask Him into your heart or that you'll say the sinner's prayer, or that you'll do something so that He can be allowed to be your savior. It's works righteousness and it's heresy.

 

[Nadiine]

So which Christians have bashed your door in and made you eat with them?

if I did that & forced them to eat my cooking,
they could sue me for attempted murder