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one11

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I can understand where you are coming from...

I just cant bring myself to trust word of god written by man whcih is probably majorly supported by my lack of faith and trust in the human race, new and old.

I trust the Bible has been very well kept by man.

The two points of main dispute are the apocrypha which supports the purgatory belief which led to the selling of the indulgences which oppressed the very poor peasants and bleed them dry of their money pretty much.

And the other main dispute is from the King James Bible where Jesus gives a reason for Moses allowing divorce such as "no divorce except for fornication".

Some Roman Catholics contend that King James had that changed so he could set up his wife in order to be able to divorce her. Some Catholics believe the scriptures were originally written that one could not ever get a divorce at all period under no circumstances.

There isn't too much other than that, except for the church of idiotopedia and all the rest of propaganda on the internet. If anyone wants to truly study, the library with books by scholars is recommended.

I feel sorry for kids today who go for the easy route of the internet and not only that but fall for these idiotic websites and writings and are becoming uneducated rather than educated. I find that tragic. I'm glad I got a chance to be educated before the internet and it's garbage.
 
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elephunky

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What on earth has the internet have to do with anything.

Btw, im not a teenager.

I went to a Christian School, I used to go to church and youth group and bible study and found A LOT that did not seem right to me and a few things that I massively disagree with
 
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one11

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What on earth has the internet have to do with anything.

Btw, im not a teenager.

I went to a Christian School, I used to go to church and youth group and bible study and found A LOT that did not seem right to me and a few things that I massively disagree with

My whole post and points in my post are not necessarily directed to the one being quoted. Some of my other points are statements but not every word is directed to the one post that is quoted.
 
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&Abel

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I trust the Bible has been very well kept by man.

The two points of main dispute are the apocrypha which supports the purgatory belief which led to the selling of the indulgences which oppressed the very poor peasants and bleed them dry of their money pretty much.

And the other main dispute is from the King James Bible where Jesus gives a reason for Moses allowing divorce such as "no divorce except for fornication".

Some Roman Catholics contend that King James had that changed so he could set up his wife in order to be able to divorce her. Some Catholics believe the scriptures were originally written that one could not ever get a divorce at all period under no circumstances.

There isn't too much other than that, except for the church of idiotopedia and all the rest of propaganda on the internet. If anyone wants to truly study, the library with books by scholars is recommended.

I feel sorry for kids today who go for the easy route of the internet and not only that but fall for these idiotic websites and writings and are becoming uneducated rather than educated. I find that tragic. I'm glad I got a chance to be educated before the internet and it's garbage.

what apocrypha teach of purgatory?
 
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Tissue

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Just as a semi-personal story, dGirl, I went to a private Christian school as well, and attended a conservative, Wesleyan church through 'youth group'. Looking back on it, there's very little, beyond the absolute basics, that I agree with from what I've been taught.

I think it is very possible to appreciate and accept Scripture without having to assign it its own deity (as some almost do). It is, for my two cents, a thoroughly mundane and human-made book, written about the ways in which God has touched this world and those in it. There are exceptional cases, such as those of the apostles, whose records will obviously be of value to the modern believer (after all, surely one who has actually walked and talked with Jesus will have important things to say). Nevertheless, I have been just as inspired and touched by many other pieces of art and literature. The Bible deserves a certain special regard for its place in the history of the Church, but not to the point of being the sole book that one is to study from, or the final, ultimate authority.
 
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LightHorseman

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Just as a semi-personal story, dGirl, I went to a private Christian school as well, and attended a conservative, Wesleyan church through 'youth group'. Looking back on it, there's very little, beyond the absolute basics, that I agree with from what I've been taught.

I think it is very possible to appreciate and accept Scripture without having to assign it its own deity (as some almost do). It is, for my two cents, a thoroughly mundane and human-made book, written about the ways in which God has touched this world and those in it. There are exceptional cases, such as those of the apostles, whose records will obviously be of value to the modern believer (after all, surely one who has actually walked and talked with Jesus will have important things to say). Nevertheless, I have been just as inspired and touched by many other pieces of art and literature. The Bible deserves a certain special regard for its place in the history of the Church, but not to the point of being the sole book that one is to study from, or the final, ultimate authority.
I just read what I thought was quite a well put article on this matter. He sums up several thoughts I have had quite eloquently.
http://pomomusings.com/2008/12/15/the-bible-and-homosexuality/

All I really have to add is that elevating the Bible to the position of "infallible 4th member of the Trinity" is idolatry.
 
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LightHorseman

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what apocrypha teach of purgatory?
Hey, the cannon Bible supports purgatory at least as firmly as it supports the idea of "the Rapture". Purgatory is also philosophically supportable, and neatly ties up several loose ends the Bible doesn't adequately address. No apocrypha required.
 
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Nadiine

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The ultimate authority should be God.
But when anybody says they follow God yet reject His instruction &
Words thru scripture, how is "God" any authority?

In actuality, they have become the final authority on what's right & moral; according to how they feel & believe - not what God says is true.

All we're left with is God being a final authority at His judgment seat
for the many who chose their truth over God's truth.

Mat 7
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

People can think God is leading them becuz they make a claim to
His name; but when their lifestyles directly counter clear scripture instruction & they refuse to repent (mainly denying its wrong), they aren't following God, they're following human will & most likely making false claims to knowing the Lord.
Lack of conviction of sin is a good way to assess one's spiritual
condition.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!
Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?
2 Corinthians 13:4-6 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 13 (Whole Chapter)
 
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LightHorseman

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But when anybody says they follow God yet reject His instruction &
Words thru scripture, how is "God" any authority?

In actuality, they have become the final authority on what's right & moral; according to how they feel & believe - not what God says is true.

All we're left with is God being a final authority at His judgment seat
for the many who chose their truth over God's truth.

Mat 7
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?'
23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

People can think God is leading them becuz they make a claim to
His name; but when their lifestyles directly counter clear scripture instruction & they refuse to repent (mainly denying its wrong), they aren't following God, they're following human will & most likely making false claims to knowing the Lord.
Lack of conviction of sin is a good way to assess one's spiritual
condition.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Test yourselves to see if you are in the faith; examine yourselves!
Or do you not recognize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you--unless indeed you fail the test?
2 Corinthians 13:4-6 (in Context) 2 Corinthians 13 (Whole Chapter)
None of which says that the Bible is infalible, or that it is God's direct word, or that we are not to use our own logic and God given reason to expand upon what is in the Bible.

Not to mention that Jesus said "the law was made for man, not man made for the law".
 
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one11

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what apocrypha teach of purgatory?

It's towards the end of 2 Maccabees which supported purgatory and the selling of indulgences by the RCC.


2 Maccabees (Apocrypha), chapter 12


Compare with Revised Standard Version: 2Mac.12

1: When these covenants were made, Lysias went unto the king, and the Jews were about their husbandry.
2: But of the governours of several places, Timotheus, and Apollonius the son of Genneus, also Hieronymus, and Demophon, and beside them Nicanor the governor of Cyprus, would not suffer them to be quiet and live in peace.
3: The men of Joppa also did such an ungodly deed: they prayed the Jews that dwelt among them to go with their wives and children into the boats which they had prepared, as though they had meant them no hurt.
4: Who accepted of it according to the common decree of the city, as being desirous to live in peace, and suspecting nothing: but when they were gone forth into the deep, they drowned no less than two hundred of them.
5: When Judas heard of this cruelty done unto his countrymen, he commanded those that were with him to make them ready.
6: And calling upon God the righteous Judge, he came against those murderers of his brethren, and burnt the haven by night, and set the boats on fire, and those that fled thither he slew.
7: And when the town was shut up, he went backward, as if he would return to root out all them of the city of Joppa.
8: But when he heard that the Jamnites were minded to do in like manner unto the Jews that dwelt among them,
9: He came upon the Jamnites also by night, and set fire on the haven and the navy, so that the light of the fire was seen at Jerusalem two hundred and forty furlongs off.
10: Now when they were gone from thence nine furlongs in their journey toward Timotheus, no fewer than five thousand men on foot and five hundred horsemen of the Arabians set upon him.
11: Whereupon there was a very sore battle; but Judas' side by the help of God got the victory; so that the Nomades of Arabia, being overcome, besought Judas for peace, promising both to give him cattle, and to pleasure him otherwise.
12: Then Judas, thinking indeed that they would be profitable in many things, granted them peace: whereupon they shook hands, and so they departed to their tents.
13: He went also about to make a bridge to a certain strong city, which was fenced about with walls, and inhabited by people of divers countries; and the name of it was Caspis.
14: But they that were within it put such trust in the strength of the walls and provision of victuals, that they behaved themselves rudely toward them that were with Judas, railing and blaspheming, and uttering such words as were not to be spoken.
15: Wherefore Judas with his company, calling upon the great Lord of the world, who without rams or engines of war did cast down Jericho in the time of Joshua, gave a fierce assault against the walls,
16: And took the city by the will of God, and made unspeakable slaughters, insomuch that a lake two furlongs broad near adjoining thereunto, being filled full, was seen running with blood.
17: Then departed they from thence seven hundred and fifty furlongs, and came to Characa unto the Jews that are called Tubieni.
18: But as for Timotheus, they found him not in the places: for before he had dispatched any thing, he departed from thence, having left a very strong garrison in a certain hold.
19: Howbeit Dositheus and Sosipater, who were of Maccabeus' captains, went forth, and slew those that Timotheus had left in the fortress, above ten thousand men.
20: And Maccabeus ranged his army by bands, and set them over the bands, and went against Timotheus, who had about him an hundred and twenty thousand men of foot, and two thousand and five hundred horsemen.
21: Now when Timotheus had knowledge of Judas' coming, he sent the women and children and the other baggage unto a fortress called Carnion: for the town was hard to besiege, and uneasy to come unto, by reason of the straitness of all the places.
22: But when Judas his first band came in sight, the enemies, being smitten with fear and terror through the appearing of him who seeth all things, fled amain, one running into this way, another that way, so as that they were often hurt of their own men, and wounded with the points of their own swords.
23: Judas also was very earnest in pursuing them, killing those wicked wretches, of whom he slew about thirty thousand men.
24: Moreover Timotheus himself fell into the hands of Dositheus and Sosipater, whom he besought with much craft to let him go with his life, because he had many of the Jews' parents, and the brethren of some of them, who, if they put him to death, should not be regarded.
25: So when he had assured them with many words that he would restore them without hurt, according to the agreement, they let him go for the saving of their brethren.
26: Then Maccabeus marched forth to Carnion, and to the temple of Atargatis, and there he slew five and twenty thousand persons.
27: And after he had put to flight and destroyed them, Judas removed the host toward Ephron, a strong city, wherein Lysias abode, and a great multitude of divers nations, and the strong young men kept the walls, and defended them mightily: wherein also was great provision of engines and darts.
28: But when Judas and his company had called upon Almighty God, who with his power breaketh the strength of his enemies, they won the city, and slew twenty and five thousand of them that were within,
29: From thence they departed to Scythopolis, which lieth six hundred furlongs from Jerusalem,
30: But when the Jews that dwelt there had testified that the Scythopolitans dealt lovingly with them, and entreated them kindly in the time of their adversity;
31: They gave them thanks, desiring them to be friendly still unto them: and so they came to Jerusalem, the feast of the weeks approaching.
32: And after the feast, called Pentecost, they went forth against Gorgias the governor of Idumea,
33: Who came out with three thousand men of foot and four hundred horsemen.
34: And it happened that in their fighting together a few of the Jews were slain.
35: At which time Dositheus, one of Bacenor's company, who was on horseback, and a strong man, was still upon Gorgias, and taking hold of his coat drew him by force; and when he would have taken that cursed man alive, a horseman of Thracia coming upon him smote off his shoulder, so that Gorgias fled unto Marisa.
36: Now when they that were with Gorgias had fought long, and were weary, Judas called upon the Lord, that he would shew himself to be their helper and leader of the battle.
37: And with that he began in his own language, and sung psalms with a loud voice, and rushing unawares upon Gorgias' men, he put them to flight.
38: So Judas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam, And when the seventh day came, they purified themselves, as the custom was, and kept the sabbath in the same place.
39: And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves.
40: Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.
41: All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid,
42: Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain.
43: And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:
44: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.
45: And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.
 
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one11

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Back to the topic.

I find kissing, making out etc a form of affection, and affection is defined as fond attachment, devotion, or love

Yes it is and I believe one can find out if one will be a good lover by making out without going any further.

My parents made out before they got married, though my Mom was a virgin when she married my Dad and they had a very affectionate relationship/marriage for 25 years until my Dad died.

They had their special time of putting their corny records on and slow dancing together on the weekends. Even though in the 1960's which produced some of the best music ever, I might have cringed at the music they were listening too but I found it so romantic and sweet how they would slow dance together when I was a little girl.

I think making out can not only reveal if one will be a compatible lover for you without going any further but also reveals feelings about whether you really love that person or not.
 
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&Abel

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It's towards the end of 2 Maccabees which supported purgatory and the selling of indulgences by the RCC.


2 Maccabees (Apocrypha), chapter 12


Compare with Revised Standard Version: 2Mac.12

1: When these covenants were made, Lysias went unto the king, and the Jews were about their husbandry.
2: But of the governours of several places, Timotheus, and Apollonius the son of Genneus, also Hieronymus, and Demophon, and beside them Nicanor the governor of Cyprus, would not suffer them to be quiet and live in peace.
3: The men of Joppa also did such an ungodly deed: they prayed the Jews that dwelt among them to go with their wives and children into the boats which they had prepared, as though they had meant them no hurt.
4: Who accepted of it according to the common decree of the city, as being desirous to live in peace, and suspecting nothing: but when they were gone forth into the deep, they drowned no less than two hundred of them.
5: When Judas heard of this cruelty done unto his countrymen, he commanded those that were with him to make them ready.
6: And calling upon God the righteous Judge, he came against those murderers of his brethren, and burnt the haven by night, and set the boats on fire, and those that fled thither he slew.
7: And when the town was shut up, he went backward, as if he would return to root out all them of the city of Joppa.
8: But when he heard that the Jamnites were minded to do in like manner unto the Jews that dwelt among them,
9: He came upon the Jamnites also by night, and set fire on the haven and the navy, so that the light of the fire was seen at Jerusalem two hundred and forty furlongs off.
10: Now when they were gone from thence nine furlongs in their journey toward Timotheus, no fewer than five thousand men on foot and five hundred horsemen of the Arabians set upon him.
11: Whereupon there was a very sore battle; but Judas' side by the help of God got the victory; so that the Nomades of Arabia, being overcome, besought Judas for peace, promising both to give him cattle, and to pleasure him otherwise.
12: Then Judas, thinking indeed that they would be profitable in many things, granted them peace: whereupon they shook hands, and so they departed to their tents.
13: He went also about to make a bridge to a certain strong city, which was fenced about with walls, and inhabited by people of divers countries; and the name of it was Caspis.
14: But they that were within it put such trust in the strength of the walls and provision of victuals, that they behaved themselves rudely toward them that were with Judas, railing and blaspheming, and uttering such words as were not to be spoken.
15: Wherefore Judas with his company, calling upon the great Lord of the world, who without rams or engines of war did cast down Jericho in the time of Joshua, gave a fierce assault against the walls,
16: And took the city by the will of God, and made unspeakable slaughters, insomuch that a lake two furlongs broad near adjoining thereunto, being filled full, was seen running with blood.
17: Then departed they from thence seven hundred and fifty furlongs, and came to Characa unto the Jews that are called Tubieni.
18: But as for Timotheus, they found him not in the places: for before he had dispatched any thing, he departed from thence, having left a very strong garrison in a certain hold.
19: Howbeit Dositheus and Sosipater, who were of Maccabeus' captains, went forth, and slew those that Timotheus had left in the fortress, above ten thousand men.
20: And Maccabeus ranged his army by bands, and set them over the bands, and went against Timotheus, who had about him an hundred and twenty thousand men of foot, and two thousand and five hundred horsemen.
21: Now when Timotheus had knowledge of Judas' coming, he sent the women and children and the other baggage unto a fortress called Carnion: for the town was hard to besiege, and uneasy to come unto, by reason of the straitness of all the places.
22: But when Judas his first band came in sight, the enemies, being smitten with fear and terror through the appearing of him who seeth all things, fled amain, one running into this way, another that way, so as that they were often hurt of their own men, and wounded with the points of their own swords.
23: Judas also was very earnest in pursuing them, killing those wicked wretches, of whom he slew about thirty thousand men.
24: Moreover Timotheus himself fell into the hands of Dositheus and Sosipater, whom he besought with much craft to let him go with his life, because he had many of the Jews' parents, and the brethren of some of them, who, if they put him to death, should not be regarded.
25: So when he had assured them with many words that he would restore them without hurt, according to the agreement, they let him go for the saving of their brethren.
26: Then Maccabeus marched forth to Carnion, and to the temple of Atargatis, and there he slew five and twenty thousand persons.
27: And after he had put to flight and destroyed them, Judas removed the host toward Ephron, a strong city, wherein Lysias abode, and a great multitude of divers nations, and the strong young men kept the walls, and defended them mightily: wherein also was great provision of engines and darts.
28: But when Judas and his company had called upon Almighty God, who with his power breaketh the strength of his enemies, they won the city, and slew twenty and five thousand of them that were within,
29: From thence they departed to Scythopolis, which lieth six hundred furlongs from Jerusalem,
30: But when the Jews that dwelt there had testified that the Scythopolitans dealt lovingly with them, and entreated them kindly in the time of their adversity;
31: They gave them thanks, desiring them to be friendly still unto them: and so they came to Jerusalem, the feast of the weeks approaching.
32: And after the feast, called Pentecost, they went forth against Gorgias the governor of Idumea,
33: Who came out with three thousand men of foot and four hundred horsemen.
34: And it happened that in their fighting together a few of the Jews were slain.
35: At which time Dositheus, one of Bacenor's company, who was on horseback, and a strong man, was still upon Gorgias, and taking hold of his coat drew him by force; and when he would have taken that cursed man alive, a horseman of Thracia coming upon him smote off his shoulder, so that Gorgias fled unto Marisa.
36: Now when they that were with Gorgias had fought long, and were weary, Judas called upon the Lord, that he would shew himself to be their helper and leader of the battle.
37: And with that he began in his own language, and sung psalms with a loud voice, and rushing unawares upon Gorgias' men, he put them to flight.
38: So Judas gathered his host, and came into the city of Odollam, And when the seventh day came, they purified themselves, as the custom was, and kept the sabbath in the same place.
39: And upon the day following, as the use had been, Judas and his company came to take up the bodies of them that were slain, and to bury them with their kinsmen in their fathers' graves.
40: Now under the coats of every one that was slain they found things consecrated to the idols of the Jamnites, which is forbidden the Jews by the law. Then every man saw that this was the cause wherefore they were slain.
41: All men therefore praising the Lord, the righteous Judge, who had opened the things that were hid,
42: Betook themselves unto prayer, and besought him that the sin committed might wholly be put out of remembrance. Besides, that noble Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forsomuch as they saw before their eyes the things that came to pass for the sins of those that were slain.
43: And when he had made a gathering throughout the company to the sum of two thousand drachms of silver, he sent it to Jerusalem to offer a sin offering, doing therein very well and honestly, in that he was mindful of the resurrection:
44: For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should have risen again, it had been superfluous and vain to pray for the dead.
45: And also in that he perceived that there was great favour laid up for those that died godly, it was an holy and good thought. Whereupon he made a reconciliation for the dead, that they might be delivered from sin.

I can understand praying for the dead pre-christ
 
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one11

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I can understand praying for the dead pre-christ

Let's not get too off topic on this Abel. You can do your own research on the internet by typing in your search box - the apocrypha and purgatory, or other key words, and do some reading from websites dedicated to this issue, or start a thread else where.
 
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Nadiine

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None of which says that the Bible is infalible, or that it is God's direct word, or that we are not to use our own logic and God given reason to expand upon what is in the Bible.

Not to mention that Jesus said "the law was made for man, not man made for the law".
I wasn't using that post to prove infallibility of scripture tho LH.
If I was, I would have to spend literal pages of posts to prove
infallibility (of which MOST people who reject the Bible as truth of
God don't even know what we mean by infallible/inerrant in the
first place. Which is why they use the fallacious comments:
"God isn't the Bible". If they u nderstood what the term meant,
that wouldn't be used as any argument).

There are entire books written to this topic of scripture authenticity
& authority - the one I have by Dr. Normal Geilser is a hardcover
with over 500 pages of detailed information on why our bible
is reliable, accurate & authentic.
There's no possible way to relay all of it in a forum venue like this -
I'm about positive that even if I did go to the time & effort that
most wouldn't bother reading it anyways.

The reason why is that many who deny scripture don't WANT to
bother studying real books from real scholars - they want little
sound points & fragments (as "one" mentioned in her post, the
little internet pages from who knows who) & they'll form their belief on that little bit of info -
& usually they'll only look up the skeptics info on why the bible should
be rejected.

They don't really want the truth (or what counters their preference);
if they did, they'de bother to get some proper study material &
take the time for in depth examination.

Until then, I simply reject most of the generic parroting I hear against scripture validity/truth - I see this as nothing but blind faith in self
created spirituality where man creates his own religious truths for himself based on feeling which is problematic since we have a sin nature
that's corrupted us & we're prone to rebel & wander from God.
 
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Tissue

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The reason why is that many who deny scripture don't WANT to
bother studying real books from real scholars - they want little
sound points & fragments (as "one" mentioned in her post, the
little internet pages from who knows who) & they'll form their belief on that little bit of info -
& usually they'll only look up the skeptics info on why the bible should
be rejected.

Actually, from my experience, this sounds more like people who thump the Bible and accept it as the only revealed truth.

It is an old book of an entirely different culture. An idea has formed in the mind of many Christians that human society must follow a particular route, and that route must be in line with God, when in reality, we have changed immensely from the culture to which much of Scripture was written. Marriage is very little like how it was once practiced. Instead of understanding the will of God in terms of the organic and blessed principles he provides (which are very simple and telling in scope: love God and love your neighbor), we accept the strict and literal meaning of many Biblical 'commandments', even though they are almost a caricature today.

In my humble opinion, if two people love each other in a monogamous relationship and are committed to one another, there is nothing wrong with sex. The Bible tells a story about salvation. It is not the end-all-be-all for exactly how we are to live our life.
 
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one11

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Actually, from my experience, this sounds more like people who thump the Bible and accept it as the only revealed truth.

It is an old book of an entirely different culture. An idea has formed in the mind of many Christians that human society must follow a particular route, and that route must be in line with God, when in reality, we have changed immensely from the culture to which much of Scripture was written. Marriage is very little like how it was once practiced. Instead of understanding the will of God in terms of the organic and blessed principles he provides (which are very simple and telling in scope: love God and love your neighbor), we accept the strict and literal meaning of many Biblical 'commandments', even though they are almost a caricature today.

In my humble opinion, if two people love each other in a monogamous relationship and are committed to one another, there is nothing wrong with sex. The Bible tells a story about salvation. It is not the end-all-be-all for exactly how we are to live our life.

I think people did and didn't have more respect for women in centuries past. In some ways they did and in other cultures and other ways, women have been "meat" or something.

However, from my experience, many men of today want to be the first one to get a woman's virginity. It's like a medal prize or something in their mind when they don't really care about the woman, they just want to TAKE their virginity. And they want to keep score of how many virgins they can get. It's not out of love towards women that makes men's hearts and minds like this.

It's similar to the Muslim's passion to have their eight virgins for eternity if they die as a martyr, except that a lot of American men want their eight to eighty virgins here on Earth.

If a man is willing to wait for his woman he is showing respect and that man might be worth finding out more about.

Another thing, what we perceive at one time to be love in relationship really turned out to be lust not love.

I wish more parents would tell their kids what they've learned about sex and why it is worth finding out if it's love or lust and how waiting and being cautious can help one figure this out (i.e, love or lust?). It takes time.
 
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