Infused vs. Imputed

[IreneAdler]

there's something sad that it's titled "catholicism vs. christianity" since they're both supposed to be equivalent...

 

[Tangible]

"Catholicism vs. Christianity" ? Hehe.

(Nice silver televangelist hair on the one guy, btw.)

 

[MrPolo]

Walter Martin's grasp of Catholicism is a fun one to breakdown sometime. But that's for another thread....

 

[Athanasias]

after justification there is sanctification

If you could explain this to me please. I mean if you hold to a mere forensic legal declaration only(imputation) and still beleive that you are dung then how are you truly sanctified? You not right? So your a sanctified piece of dung?? But your still dung even after sanctification? Again can I be a regenerated, Justified, sanctified ,Christian who is a partaker of the divine nature of Christ and still be dung? If that was the case I myself would never truly be sanctified at all. If Jesus just acquits me and doesn't transform me then I am on easy street. I'm saved brother and I can Sin Boldly and it don't matter what I do because am I dung anyway!! Whooohooo! But if I am sanctified and made actually holy and share in Christ divinity then I truly am made good or holy because his grace makes me and transforms me into good and my actions do matter because I am not dung anymore I am Christs own with his shared divine nature and supernatural life and grace in my soul and this is infusion.

 

[OpenDoor]

If you could explain this to me please. I mean if you hold to a mere forensic legal declaration only(imputation) and still beleive that you are dung then how are you truly sanctified? You not right? So your a sanctified piece of dung?? But your still dung even after sanctification? Again can I be a regenerated, Justified, sanctified ,Christian who is a partaker of the divine nature of Christ and still be dung? If that was the case I myself would never truly be sanctified at all. If Jesus just acquits me and doesn't transform me then I am on easy street. I'm saved brother and I can Sin Boldly and it don't matter what I do because am I dung anyway!! Whooohooo! But if I am sanctified and made actually holy and share in Christ divinity then I truly am made good or holy because his grace makes me and transforms me into good and my actions do matter because I am not dung anymore I am Christs own with his shared divine nature and supernatural life and grace in my soul and this is infusion.

justification and sanctification are two separate things

The sinner is declared righteous in God's sight, by the adding of Christ to the life of the sinner. THEN the sinner changes by the new nature.

It is not the new nature that justifies but the adding of Christ.

 

[Tangible]

Staying on segway for a moment, do Lutherans have a position on the sin of the fallen angels who had no flesh?

I'm gonna shoot from the hip here - I can't find any authoritative Lutheran statements right now.

1. Like angels, man was created to be holy and live in the presence of God.

2. Angels, being spirit, have no plan of redemption that has been revealed to us. Once fallen they remain separated from God forever.

3. Man is a spirit+flesh creation. When man sinned, he earned not only physical death but spiritual death - eternal separation from God - as well.

4. God has a plan of redemption for man, through the cross of Christ.

5. Though man is conceived and born a sinful creature, separated from God by nature, for the sake of Christ God freely justifies some* by grace through faith.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.

2 Corinthians 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

6. Upon regeneration in Christ, our spirit is restored to its original sinless state - a new creation - while our flesh remains sinful. Our flesh is still under the penalty of death and will eventually die (or be changed a the 2nd coming of Christ).

7. Upon resurrection, our spirit and glorified flesh are reunited to live eternally in the presence of God.



*some - Lutherans do not attempt to explain why some are saved while others are not, since this is not revealed in scripture (crux theologorum).

 

[MrPolo]

THEN the sinner changes by the new nature.

So those who die right after justification still go to heaven despite not having a new nature, correct?

 

[OpenDoor]

So those who die right after justification still go to heaven despite not having a new nature, correct?

like the thief on the cross

ps. they do have a new nature once Christ is added but I understand what you were asking

 

[Tangible]

Justification - Instantaneous, complete Christ-righteousness before God.

Sanctification - Gradual growth in civil righteousness for the good of our neighbor. At death whatever good works God has accomplished through me remain while my fleshly "good works" become sin and are forgiven for the sake of the complete and sufficient propitiatory sacrifice of Christ.

 

[OpenDoor]

in case it is still unclear

Once Christ is added to the sinner (unity with Christ by faith). The sinner takes on a new nature in Christ (having the Spirit of Christ within, being born again, regeneration, etc etc). When that unity is there which happens by grace through faith, the person IS justified (declared righteous by God in Christ). What follows are good works because of the new nature of the already justified person. The good works are not what saves but the unity with Christ is.

By grace (past tense) you have already been saved.

 

[OpenDoor]

hmm
double post

 

[Frogster]

Let me get this straight. So you beleive in imputation( a mere legal fiction). So that means that you think that even though we are partakers of the divine nature of Christ and have been actually regenerated we still are dung in actuality?? Amazing! I guess Christ is dung then??

Huh?..anyway..

Ok,as far as imputed.It sounds like you think God is tinkering a bit with Adfam? No way!..

Adam was dead,under a reign of condemantion and death.We are a new creation,imputed.It has to be,or else one has to presume that we can fix something that was nailed to a cross.

Rom 5;16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.

Also,the law was a legal document,that was a judge,that held all under condemnation.

Rom 3;19Now we know that whatever the things the law says, it speaks to those under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world be under judgment to God.

Here too.

Col 2;14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

God will judge the world,a legal proceeding,by the law.

Rom 3;6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world?

So obviously,it is imputation,not guilty anymore from the legal document of the law. JUDICIAL,as the posted text shows.

 

[Frogster]

So you believe Christ's grace does not have the power to transform.

Yes,I undertsand we get renewed,and of course the new man can be edified and built up.But Adam was flesh,and nailed to the cross.Jesus went alone to pray,yet he was the second Adam.

I think he means that you can't earn any of it

 

[Frogster]

It's hard to say what he means.

Well..is there any good thing in Adam,the flesh?

 

[Frogster]

So those who die right after justification still go to heaven despite not having a new nature, correct?

If we are measured by our "sanctification level",that would lead back to a striving works performance Christianity.Bad.

We all mature,and grow,fine,but even that comes from the Sprit.

2 cor 3;18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, [6] are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

But,one declare innocent,is just that,for all eternity.

Heb 10;17 then he adds,
“I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more.”

2 Cor 5;19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling [3] the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation.

Trespasses means to break a written law.The law was the legal document,that was the legal measuring rod.We are declared righteous under the legal document.

Why is it you understand we cant be on trial for the same crime twice in the natural realm,but not the spiritual?

 

[Thekla]

 

[Athanasias]

justification and sanctification are two separate things

The sinner is declared righteous in God's sight, by the adding of Christ to the life of the sinner. THEN the sinner changes by the new nature.

It is not the new nature that justifies but the adding of Christ.

The new nature is the adding of Christ. Let me ask you this though so I understand it. Is a person who is sanctified still a pile of dung in reality like Luther said???

 

[Tangible]

Well, colorful expressions aside, the one undergoing sanctification is very much a sinner until death and resurrection. In the eyes of God, even his righteous deed are like filthy rags (pus-soaked or menstrual rags) per Isaiah.

 

[Thekla]

pile of dung
I thought human life was precious

 

[IreneAdler]

and yet God loves them... sinner or not