Infants in Heaven?

[frumanchu]

Only if crying when hungry, unhappy and needing a diaper change constitutes disobedience to parents, but it doesn't; the opposite is true. Anyone caring for infants needs to hear the three types of baby cries to take adequate care of them.

I speak from recent experience...infants learn very quickly how to manipulate parents with their crying. I have three children under the age of five, and a niece who is a year old. I know all about infants and their crying

the term "sin" isn't derived from an old archery term which means "missing the mark", although many people believe that. In my modern American dictionary, what we ordinarily call "original sin" isn't even on the list of definitions of the term, which is why I posted what I did

Original sin is a theological term. Its absence from a modern American dictionary has no bearing on its definition (btw...American Heritage and Webster's both have entries for it). All sources I've reference in the past agree on the origin of the term, so I'd be interested to hear from you the origin of the word if it is other than the commonly accepted one.

plus blindfaith made an excellent point:Please keep in mind that many unbelievers read these threads to maybe get some answers...

While I certainly take that into consideration, I will by no means water down or compromise theology for the sake of 'selling it.' The realization of the full extent of our sinfulness is meant to drive us to the Cross, not away from us. If we preach the Word, we should preach the whole counsel of God, not just the happy parts

 

[armothe]

I speak from recent experience...infants learn very quickly how to manipulate parents with their crying.

Well of course they do. If babies didn't cry how would we know what they needed? I suppose you think manipulation by itself is a sin? Is crying a sin?

I have three children under the age of five, and a niece who is a year old. I know all about infants and their crying

I rank about the same in the child department, and I see no sinful behavior in children under the age of 4.

-A

 

[frumanchu]

I rank about the same in the child department, and I see no sinful behavior in children under the age of 4.

You obviously haven't met my daughter

I've yet to meet a toddler that is not a regular transgressor of the fifth, ninth and tenth commandments. I certainly never taught my children to lie, but it didn't take them long to start doing it, and it seems like...well it seems like second nature to them

Anyway, given your statement about children under the age of 4, I assume then that you would agree that a 5 year old can and does sin and is therefore deserving of hell from a judicial standpoint?

 

[Blindfaith]

I don't think that God has a book in front of him where at paragraph 3 it states that by a specific age a child is to be held accountable. If there was a specific age, He would have told us in the Bible.

 

[frumanchu]

I don't think that God has a book in front of him where at paragraph 3 it states that by a specific age a child is to be held accountable. If there was a specific age, He would have told us in the Bible.

I agree, which is a principle reason why I reject the notion of an 'age of accountability' as unscriptural. The age of accountability is 0.

Please don't misunderstand...I do not believe that God sends infants to Hell. But the reason is God's grace and not their judicial innocence. Infants are still sinners in need of a Savior.

 

[armothe]

Anyway, given your statement about children under the age of 4, I assume then that you would agree that a 5 year old can and does sin and is therefore deserving of hell from a judicial standpoint?

At this point I cannot comment on any children over the age of 4 because I have not witnessed such. I do look forward to it though.

I believe recognized sin is different for each individual.

If your 10mo old is playing in the toilet do you really think they will know what you mean when you say "get out of the toilet"! Most likely they'll just look at you and continue to splash around in the toilet. Is this disobedience? Is this a sin?

They don't understand english. They don't understand language. They definitely can't reason. To us it may appear as disobedience, but to them they are just learning or playing a game.

What is sin? Playing in a toilet? Here are a few definitions I've found:
1) A deliberate turning away from God and God's goodness.
2) doing something that would not be pleasing to God.
3) an act that is regarded by theologians as a transgression of God's will.
4) an offense against religious or moral law.

Rather, I believe sin is the opposite of love. The two greatest commands are: "Love God". "Love thy Neighbor" (other people). If our actions towards God or others prove to be opposite of love then we are guilty of sin.

Can a child comprehend love? Can a child comprehend sin?

-A

 

[armothe]

What of the mentally ill?

Like babies and small children they are unable to comprehend certain things.

I have an eighteen year old autistic sister-in-law. Is she a sinner? Does she commit sins?

She understands "no". She can dress herself. She can use the bathroom.
She can eat with a spoon, and her favorite meal is Mac & Cheese.

You cannot have a conversation with her. She does't understand politics. She doesn't know what Terrorism is. She doesn't know what the Bible is.
She does not understand what Christ's sacrifice is all about.

How can she be held accountable as a sinner if she can't even comprehend what sin is. How can she be saved if she cannot comprehend what Christ was all about?

I too, at one point believed everyone was a sinner at conception - and concluded that God must have a different plan for the mentally ill, babies dying at birth, or terminated pregnancies who possibly couldnt accept Christ as their savior. But there is no biblical proof for this. We've made up a solution based upon or feelings.

Rather, Adam was sinless until he sinned. Eve was sinless until she sinned.
It only makes sense that each person is sinless until they sin.
The minute they can comprehend what sin is, they can also comprehend the reason why Christ died on the cross and are no longer without excuse.

-A

 

[frumanchu]

What of the mentally ill? Like babies and small children they are unable to comprehend certain things.I have an eighteen year old autistic sister-in-law. Is she a sinner? Does she commit sins? She understands "no". She can dress herself. She can use the bathroom. She can eat with a spoon, and her favorite meal is Mac & Cheese. You cannot have a conversation with her. She does't understand politics. She doesn't know what Terrorism is. She doesn't know what the Bible is. She does not understand what Christ's sacrifice is all about. How can she be held accountable as a sinner if she can't even comprehend what sin is. How can she be saved if she cannot comprehend what Christ was all about? I too, at one point believed everyone was a sinner at conception - and concluded that God must have a different plan for the mentally ill, babies dying at birth, or terminated pregnancies who possibly couldnt accept Christ as their savior. But there is no biblical proof for this. We've made up a solution based upon or feelings.

You are absolutely correct...there is no different plan for the mentally ill, etc. The plan is the same universally: salvation by Christ. As I see it though, your solution is no less based on feelings than the others. The notion we have trouble dealing with is infants, etc. actually being in Hell. How can any of us relish that thought?!? But because the thought is so 'unthinkable' we can end up resorting to solutions to explain it away that do radical violence to other Biblical truths. Scripture is pretty clear that 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.' I see no exceptions given anywhere.

The problem stems from our view of faith and salvation. For those who think faith is an intellectual excercise...that it is something man creates...there is a huge problem because those who are unable to create that faith cannot meet the condition required for salvation (John 3:16, Acts 16:31). For those of us who realize that faith comes from God...that God will have mercy upon whom He will have mercy...there is no problem. If God purposes to save someone, be he infant, imbecile, ignorant, or investment banker, His will is accomplished in efficacy of the grace of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist lept in the womb in response to Christ. What reason is there to think that the Spirit could not act within whosoever the Lord chooses?

 

[armothe]

Scripture is pretty clear that 'all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.' I see no exceptions given anywhere.

Christ? Adam?* Eve?* (there was a point they weren't sinners) Those were enough exceptions to give me reasonable doubt that "all" doesn't mean "all".

"all have sinned..." Do unborn babies sin? Please alude to some method as to how they accomplish this. Please note the text does not say "all are sinners".

The only way to atone for sin, is to accept Christ's sacrifice. Unborn fetuses, or newborns cannot do this. Now you are left with 3 conclusions:

1) Young children are without sin up to the point they first sin
2) God grants them temporary salvation up until they can choose Christ for themselves
3) Predestination

-A

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

I've yet to meet a toddler that is not a regular transgressor of the fifth, ninth and tenth commandments.

Right. Honor father & mother, don't bear false witness against neighbor, and don't covet neighbor's belongings.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10

 

[armothe]

Right. Honor father & mother, don't bear false witness against neighbor, and don't covet neighbor's belongings.
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. James 2:10

Please tell me you aren't applying James 2:10 to the Mosaic Law.

Granted, he uses an example from the Mosaic Law, but his statement applies to the "royal" law which is "love they neighbor as thyself".

James is warning Christians about being selective as to who they love. Many at the time were showing love only towards the rich while disregarding the poor. James alerts them that by not loving the poor, they are guilty of the commandment as a whole.

I hope you aren't suggesting the Mosaic Laws apply to us today?

-A

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

"love they neighbor as thyself".
-A

You may as well own up to it; your kids are sinners just like anyone else's. If they fail to love their neighbors as they love themselves ONE time they're guilty of the whole shabang. Scramble Scripture all you want but it won't change the fact.

 

[armothe]

You may as well own up to it; your kids are sinners just like anyone else's. If they fail to love their neighbors as they love themselves ONE time they're guilty of the whole shabang. Scramble Scripture all you want but it won't change the fact.

My children have not once failed to love their neighbors. Now, will you take a father's word for it, or will your bias ignore anything I say and continue to throw up smokescreens instead of answering the questions posed towards you.

You may as well own up to the fact that you have absolutely no idea how to interpret scripture.

-A

 

[Blueberry Sponge]

-A[/QUOTE]

Now, will you take a father's word for it
-A

Of course not. Fathers are sinners too. Sinners defending sinners isn't God's solution to the sin that everyone's born in.

My children have not once failed to love their neighbors.
-A

There's a wild story.

 

[Plan 9]

What of the mentally ill?

Like babies and small children they are unable to comprehend certain things.

I have an eighteen year old autistic sister-in-law. Is she a sinner? Does she commit sins?

She understands "no". She can dress herself. She can use the bathroom.
She can eat with a spoon, and her favorite meal is Mac & Cheese.

You cannot have a conversation with her. She does't understand politics. She doesn't know what Terrorism is. She doesn't know what the Bible is.
She does not understand what Christ's sacrifice is all about.

How can she be held accountable as a sinner if she can't even comprehend what sin is. How can she be saved if she cannot comprehend what Christ was all about?
-A

When you have spent time with someone for whom you have yourself have had to make many special provisions, because of autism or severe mental illness, it's hard to believe that God has not made some special provision for them.

I was thinking you might enjoy reaading at least some of the book Anthropologist on Mars by Oliver Sachs. The title is a description given to herself by a women who is an autistic adult. She's far, far more functional than your sister-in-law, so she was able to express her very different point of view to Dr. Sachs and also to demonstrate a clever substitute she devised to meet an emotional need she is unable to fufill the manner we would.

 

[frumanchu]

Christ? Adam?* Eve?* (there was a point they weren't sinners) Those were enough exceptions to give me reasonable doubt that "all" doesn't mean "all".

All three examples you gave me (which, btw, are the ONLY exceptions) were at some point not fallen. Obviously Adam and Eve were not under the curse of original sin prior to the fall because the fall brought the curse. Christ was not subject to original sin because of the virgin birth.

The context of the verse is pretty clear to the meaning of 'all.'

"all have sinned..." Do unborn babies sin? Please alude to some method as to how they accomplish this. Please note the text does not say "all are sinners".

We all sinned in Adam, whether you take the federal or realism (seminal) view, we all share the guilt of Adam's transgression. I suppose David was just kidding when he said the wicked sin from the womb.

The only way to atone for sin, is to accept Christ's sacrifice. Unborn fetuses, or newborns cannot do this. Now you are left with 3 conclusions:

1) Young children are without sin up to the point they first sin
2) God grants them temporary salvation up until they can choose Christ for themselves
3) Predestination

Salvation is by faith. People to view faith as an intellectual excercise or something that man creates himself are left in your position denying the truth of original sin (#1) or making exceptions to the rules (#2). Because you don't have a proper understanding of #3, you point to #1 as the only viable option. However, those who believe in Calvinist predestination know that faith is God's gift, not man's creation. He is the author and perfector of our faith, and as such there is no reason to believe He cannot grant faith to an infant. James tells us that our works show forth our faith, but if one is too young to show forth that faith in a manner we can observe, does that mean the faith is not there? John the Baptist lept in the womb in response to Christ...why is it not possible for God to grant faith to any other child?

 

[frumanchu]

Please tell me you aren't applying James 2:10 to the Mosaic Law.

Granted, he uses an example from the Mosaic Law, but his statement applies to the "royal" law which is "love they neighbor as thyself".

James is warning Christians about being selective as to who they love. Many at the time were showing love only towards the rich while disregarding the poor. James alerts them that by not loving the poor, they are guilty of the commandment as a whole.

I hope you aren't suggesting the Mosaic Laws apply to us today?

-A

I hope you aren't suggesting that God's Law is no longer significant. God's Law does still hold significance to us. Just because we are not 'under the Law' does not make the Law void. Antinomianism is gross abuse of and presumption upon the grace of God. The Ten Commandments still apply in terms of transgression, or are you saying that we should sin all the more that grace may abound all the more?

 

[frumanchu]

My children have not once failed to love their neighbors.

Well, while you're at it, why don't you tell us all about Sponge's heart. Since clearly you actually know the hearts of your children, surely you must know others as well. I'm sure everything your children have ever done has been out of love and never once out of selfishness, spite or anger.

I don't know whether it's bias, ignorance, or both, but you are seriously deluding yourself if you believe your children are judicially innocent.

 

[armothe]

Well, while you're at it, why don't you tell us all about Sponge's heart. Since clearly you actually know the hearts of your children, surely you must know others as well.

I cannot see BS actions.....I cannot see your actions. But I can see my children's actions.

I suppose David was just kidding when he said the wicked sin from the womb.

We've already been over this one earlier in the thread. David was speaking towards the evil rulers of the surrounding countries. This was not a universal - or literal - statement.

I hope you aren't suggesting that God's Law is no longer significant. God's Law does still hold significance to us. Just because we are not 'under the Law' does not make the Law void. The Ten Commandments still apply in terms of transgression, or are you saying that we should sin all the more that grace may abound all the more?

The Mosaic Law no longer applies to us today. It was fulfilled/replaced by the following:

Matthew 22:36 - ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

Luke 10:27 - He answered, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself.”

Luke 16:16 - “The law and the prophets were in effect until John came; since then the good news of the kingdom of God is proclaimed,

Romans 3:20 - wherefore by works of law shall no flesh be declared righteous before Him, for through law is a knowledge of sin.

Romans 6:14 - For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

Romans 7:4 - In the same way, my friends, you have died to the law through the body of Christ, ... But now we are discharged from the law, dead to that which held us captive, so that we are slaves not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.

Romans 13:8 - Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet”; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.

Galatians 5:14 - For the whole law is summed up in a single commandment, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

Galatians 3:11 - Now it is evident that no one is justified before God by the law; for “The one who is righteous will live by faith.

Salvation is by faith.

Agreed.

People to view faith as an intellectual excercise or something that man creates himself are left in your position denying the truth of original sin...those who believe in Calvinist predestination know that faith is God's gift, not man's creation.

Faith is a human emotion/action. It is described as such several times:

1 Corinthians 15:14 - "your faith"
1 Corinthians 15:17 - "your faith"
2 Corinthians 1:24 - "your faith"

Matthew 9:28 - When he entered the house, the blind men came to him; and Jesus said to them, “Do you believe that I am able to do this?” They said to him, “Yes, Lord.” Then he touched their eyes and said, “According to your faith let it be done to you.”

Matthew 15:22 - Just then a Canaanite woman from that region came out and started shouting, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is tormented by a demon.” ... Then Jesus answered her, “Woman, great is your faith! Let it be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed instantly.

Mark 2:3 - Then some people came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them...When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.”

Mark 5:25 - Now there was a woman who had been suffering from hemorrhages for twelve years...She had heard about Jesus, and came up behind him in the crowd and touched his cloak, for she said, “If I but touch his clothes, I will be made well.” Immediately her hemorrhage stopped; and she felt in her body that she was healed of her disease. Immediately aware that power had gone forth from him, Jesus turned about in the crowd ... He said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”

You must be getting "grace" and "faith" mixed up. Whereas grace is indeed from God - faith is definitely something exercised by our (humans) own accord. Not only that, but we can lose our faith as well:

1 Peter 1 - so that the genuineness of your faith—being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire—may be found to result in praise and glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed.

why is it not possible for God to grant faith to any other child?

Again, God does not grant faith - He grants grace.

But I'm not here to debate Predestination, or Calvinism.
It is obvious that you believe God chooses who to grant salvation to. On what basis you've managed to come to that conclusion I'll never understand.

-A

 

[frumanchu]

I cannot see BS actions.....I cannot see your actions. But I can see my children's actions.

Christ saw the Pharisees' actions. He also saw their heart. The two were not in agreement. God judges the heart, friend. All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags.

The Mosaic Law no longer applies to us today. It was fulfilled/replaced by the following

We are not bound by the Law for we have died to it. Nevertheless, we are called to be holy as He is holy. The Law spells out for us the righteousness of the Lord. We strive to the Law not because we rely on keeping it to achieve salvation, but because we love the Lord and want to flee from sin. The Law is not to be cast out.

Tell me, if the Law no longer applies at all, how do you know sin from righteousness? If the Law is no longer there to define sin for you, then it's quite easy to see why your children appear sinless before your eyes

Faith is a human emotion/action. It is described as such several times:

Never said it wasn't a human action. Only said that the human didn't create the impetus for that action.

You must be getting "grace" and "faith" mixed up. Whereas grace is indeed from God - faith is definitely something exercised by our (humans) own accord. Not only that, but we can lose our faith as well:

Faith is the natural response of man to God's efficacious and irresistable grace. We are saved by grace through faith. Grace is the efficient cause of our salvation, and faith is the instrumental cause by which it is accomplished. Salvation is of God, beginning to end.

Again, God does not grant faith - He grants grace.

Not only does He grant faith by means of His grace, He also grants repentance (see 2 Tim 2:25,26)

But I'm not here to debate Predestination, or Calvinism.

They are absolutely relevant to the topic at hand

It is obvious that you believe God chooses who to grant salvation to.

Good. I should hope none would need to question that.

On what basis you've managed to come to that conclusion I'll never understand.

The Word of God, and I certainly hope and pray that you do understand.