Infants in Heaven?

FatherApe · Sep 22, 2003

I don't know that the Bible gives us much assurance one way or the other about the salavation of infant babies who die. Anybody know?

~Wisdom Seeker~ · Sep 22, 2003

If salvation is for those who can make the decision fully knowing what the decision is and what the consequences are, then they are of the age of accountablility.

Babies are not accountable for thier choices or their actions.

Oroppas · Sep 22, 2003

Wisdom Seeker said:
If salvation is for those who can make the decision fully knowing what the decision is and what the consequences are, then they are of the age of accountablility.

Babies are not accountable for thier choices or their actions.

I agree...

James 4:17 states: "To one who knows the right thing to do, and does not do it, to him it is sin" I really don't think a babie knows whats up with anything when they are born.

2 Samuel 12:22-23 states: "While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept; for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live? But now he is dead, why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me"

I think David, after he lost his baby, is saying that there is no need for him to have much sorrow since he can't bring the baby back but that one day he will go to him (the baby) which would mean the baby is in heaven with God.

Anyone else care to chime in?

FatherApe · Sep 22, 2003

Interesting, the 2 Samuel quote was the same given to me by my pastor when I asked. Even that is not an undeniable declaration though.. it's almost an inferred thang. Hm-m-m...

Mounts · Sep 22, 2003

I searched but I could not find it at the moment; thought, I'm positive there is a verse explaining that we are born in tresspasses and sins (everyone's familair, right?). Infants are not innocent, sad to say.

I would have to say it's all up to our sovereign Lord, whom if He so wills, can bestow His love on the child and save him. But, I'm afraid to say, He could just as sovereignly not. We just have to trust the Lord; He knows what He's doing.

Overall, I really have no idea, but I remember David in the OT saying he would someday join his son infant in heaven. I don't really think the Bible addresses it much; of course, someone please prove me wrong.

armothe · Sep 23, 2003

Were Adam and Eve sinless before they sinned? Of course.
They were holy creations and walked with God.

What happened when they sinned? They were cast from God's presence.

Christ came to restore that gap. Through His blood we are no longer viewed as sinners by God (one must acknowledge this), and are allowed to walk with Him again.

Thus, I would go so far as to state that a person is sinless until they commit their first sin (like Adam & Eve).

Thus, enters in the age of accountability (which is different between each person). This is when the person knowingly and understandingly commits a sin. It is at this point the individual comprehends the difference between good and evil and knows what sin is.

Fortunately, it is also at this point that the individual can understand why
Christ came to free us of our sin.

Now, all that is left is to define what a sin consists of?

-A

4sightsounds · Sep 23, 2003

Genesis 5:3 leads me to believe that ALL are born in sin, because all are born in the image of Adam, which represents fallen man.

not to mention a countless number of scriptures that state that all have fallen short....and all have sinned, etc...

water_ripple · Sep 23, 2003

God above all is love and mercy.

A baby is not able to make any conscieous choice with the known or unknown intent of sin. A baby does not wake up a t 12, 3, and 6 in the morning to bedevil the parents. A baby does nothing to emotionally or physically hurt another. The list could go on..

We are all fallen due to our parents Adam and Eve, so we are born with original sin. Fortunately, God does not judge a child for the sins of the parents. Babies may be born with original sin, but they do not willfuly commit sins and reject God. God is love and mercy. He is also a God of judgement and wrath. Therefore, if a child who is born with original sin (a sin of Adam and Eve that makes every human fallen) but God does not hold a child accountable for the sin of the parent God will not judge one who is without willful sin or rejection of God. God will show mercy on the innocent.

armothe · Sep 24, 2003

Born with original sin:

I think we use the word "inherit" and "born" improperly.

The majority of people believe sin is inherited like one inherits blue eyes or brown hair from their parents. I believe this is an incorrect definition.

Sin is inherited the way good manners or social skills are inherited - by learning them.

You see, there are only two methods of human development:
Genetic - mostly physical (getting taller) which in turn effects some emotional/mental attributes (strong will)(intelligence).
Learned Behavior - emotional/mental (right vs wrong).

Which of the two does sin fall into?
Is there a SIN gene which is passed on from parents to child? If so, why didn't Christ genetically inherit sin from Mary?

Rather, I believe sin is a learned behavior. This being the case, it is impossible for a newborn child to have already learned/committed sin. Thus a newborn child is without sin - being sinless.

Those being without sin are able to ascend to heaven if they die. Much like a person is able to do so when he/she has accepted Christ as their savior- who covers a persons sin so they appear blameless before God. Thus is able to enter into Heaven upon physical death.

Adam sinned. Cain learned what sin was from Adam. Cain's children learned what sin was from Cain. Cain's children then passed sin on to their children. And on, and on, and on. So indeed sin whas "inherited" from Adam. But we are not actually born with sin.

Those who think we are born with sin. Please tell me how this process works.

-A

4sightsounds · Sep 24, 2003

Let me 1st say that I truly do not know how God deals with the issue of infants...I think that is the most faithful conclusion to draw from scripture...

Rom 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God"

...how is one born with sin? Are you saying that sin is merely a learned behavior?

water_ripple · Sep 24, 2003

armothe said:
Born with original sin:

I think we use the word "inherit" and "born" improperly.

The majority of people believe sin is inherited like one inherits blue eyes or brown hair from their parents. I believe this is an incorrect definition.

Sin is inherited the way good manners or social skills are inherited - by learning them.

You see, there are only two methods of human development:
Genetic - mostly physical (getting taller) which in turn effects some emotional/mental attributes (strong will)(intelligence).
Learned Behavior - emotional/mental (right vs wrong).

Which of the two does sin fall into?
Is there a SIN gene which is passed on from parents to child? If so, why didn't Christ genetically inherit sin from Mary?

Rather, I believe sin is a learned behavior. This being the case, it is impossible for a newborn child to have already learned/committed sin. Thus a newborn child is without sin - being sinless.

Those being without sin are able to ascend to heaven if they die. Much like a person is able to do so when he/she has accepted Christ as their savior- who covers a persons sin so they appear blameless before God. Thus is able to enter into Heaven upon physical death.

Adam sinned. Cain learned what sin was from Adam. Cain's children learned what sin was from Cain. Cain's children then passed sin on to their children. And on, and on, and on. So indeed sin whas "inherited" from Adam. But we are not actually born with sin.

Those who think we are born with sin. Please tell me how this process works.

-A

Uh, you are right. When I say original sin I mean only that our flesh is fallen. We are in our true form without the flesh in the presence of God. As I said God does not judge children for the sins of their parents (Solomon from King David for example). Thanx for making me clarify what I was trying to say.

armothe · Sep 24, 2003

Maybe we should reflect on a few statements from Christ himself?

Matthew 18:3: "Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven."

Matthew 19:14: But Jesus said, "Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."

We already know the only way to enter into the kingdom of heaven is to appear sinless before God. Christ already provided a method for doing this by dying on the cross.

What's left to conclude other than that children are sinless?

-A

FatherApe · Sep 24, 2003

Thanks for those 2 Matthew quotes armothe. They go a long toward giving hope to those who grieve the loss of their infant children. I started this thread seeking hope for a friend and his wife who just miscarried. The one Biblical reference I'd found was the one in 2 Samuel where David looks forward to seeing his lost son again (assumably in heaven).

These New Testament quotes from Christ himself are very reassuring.

Blueberry Sponge · Sep 24, 2003

If babies weren't sinners they couldn't die because death is solely the result of sin. Their very death proves that sin isn't just a "learned behavior" that they hadn't lived long enough to learn yet. The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Psalm 58:3

I think Christ's provisional atonement covers all their sins in His sight until each one's age of accountability - "before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good" (Isaiah 7:16).

In other words I think they all go to heaven; but as forgiven sinners.

Patristic · Sep 24, 2003

This is an interesting topic and one that stirs up strong emotions. I think the 2 Samuel passage can be reassurring, but one must also keep in mind that David is most likely referring to the Hebrew place of the dead of Sheol. Both the wicked and the righteous went to Sheol, but there was a separation of the two as evidenced by Jesus' parable of Lazarus and the rich man. So, one could argue that David would see his child again in the resting place of the righteous in Abraham's bosom, defintely a possibility.

The New Testament passages in Matthew are also revealing because Jesus says that the angels of the little ones always behold the face of His father in heaven. These speaks pretty strongly to the fact that these young children are in God's favor and are safe in His presence.

Some point to passags like Ephesians 2:3, where Paul says "we were children of wrath by nature, like the rest" to prove that everyone is born guilty and condemned. Yet, this is not really Saint Paul's point when he wrote this passage. He was writing to Gentile converts and Jews and he was making a point that they were not distinguished from one another because they all actively followed after the prince of this world and served the lusts and impulses of the flesh. If anyone can prove that infants actively serve Satan and follow after the impulses of the flesh then maybe you can make a case for Paul including infants under this statement.

Nevertheless, I think the most revealing verse is found in Ecclesiastes 7:29

"Lo, this only have I found, God has made man upright, but they have sought many devices."

God has made mankind upright, but it is mankind that has followed after his own sinful desires.

armothe · Sep 25, 2003

Blueberry Sponge said:
If babies weren't sinners they couldn't die because death is solely the result of sin. Their very death proves that sin isn't just a "learned behavior" that they hadn't lived long enough to learn yet. The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. Psalm 58:3

Spiritual death is a result of sin.

The Psalm quote should not be taken literally. First of all, David is only speaking about the wicked. Second, David was merely trying to make a point by using figurative language.

The wicked go astray from the womb;
they err from their birth, speaking lies.
They have venom like the venom of a serpent,
like the deaf adder that stops its ear,
so that it does not hear the voice of charmers
or of the cunning enchanter.
O God, break the teeth in their mouths;
tear out the fangs of the young lions, O Lord!

Are we to literally belive that wicked people resemble lions and have fangs filled with venom also?

-A

Peter · Sep 25, 2003

Sin is inherited the way good manners or social skills are inherited - by learning them.

All we like sheep have gone astray. Not all we like sheep were born astray.

For all have sinned. Not for all are sinners.

Children are boen pure. They learn to sin, from experts, their parents!

blixation · Sep 25, 2003

This is all I know about the whole infant thing. We are born in sin. When adam and eve fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, that all of us were now dead in them (rom. 5:12). That we are by nature children of wrath (Eph. 2:3). That we serve sin and subjects of death (rom 6:20). That all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God. That except a person be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.

what i'm saying logically if we are born in sin and then we die, God must by nature punish sin, right?

Patristic · Sep 25, 2003

First, you are taking the Ephesians 2:3 verse out of context. Paul is comparing Jews to Gentiles and showing how they all followed after Satan in sin. Read the first two verses of chapter 2 and show me how infants fall under Paul's description of following the principalities of hte air and obeying the lusts of the flesh.

Second, from the way you are using Romans 5:12 to prove your point it sounds like your a Traducian Augustinian realist. Do you really believe that everyone who ever existed was literally IN Adam when he sinned, and so we sinned too? You need more than Augustine's proof from Jerome's mistranslation of this verse into Latin to prove this point.

Peter · Sep 25, 2003

All death is the result of sin. In fact where death is, sin is present. However, is all death the specific result of a persons individual sin? No. Physical death is a consequence we all share as a result of Adams sin. An infant can die without sin in it's own life. It's soul, like all of ours, is completely reliant on God's grace for its salvation.

Peace.

Peter

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