Infant Baptism

[Albion]

Why would I want to "create a new doctrine" for one....And... a doctrine that is not found in the bible.. for two?

I used "you" there in the colloquial sense, as in "You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink."

It refers to anyone, not to some person in particular.

 

[Albion]

I agree Albion.
Further, another thing that's going to muddy the discussion is that there are differences, some more subtle than others, in Soteriology. So when one is saying "be saved" it may not mean exactly the same thing to someone else.

Of course, but I was terrified to also go there.

 

[FenderTL5]

Of course, but I was terrified to also go there.

As am I.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

Matthew 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

John's was a temporary mission. He was the herald, and he was satisfied with this position. His baptism was preparatory. By inducing people to repent and by administering baptism, he was getting them ready for Jesus' grasp, "He who's coming is stronger than I. He has power."

With this power is combined God's dignity. So great's he that John doesn't feel himself worthy even to take off his shoes, a slave's work.

This one's ministry will stand out in contrast, "He'll baptize you with the Spirit and with fire." An effect of Jesus' work is here predicted. To those who accept him as Savior, he'll give the Spirit, with her gifts. But those who would reject the salvation he'll immerse in fire. They've refused to accept the Spirit with her power, and so his power will devour them.

 

[timothyu]

John's was a temporary mission. He was the herald, and he was satisfied with this position. His baptism was preparatory.

Exactly yet most churches stop there.

 

[GingerBeer]

Context is more than an isolated verse.

This is give and take conversation. You arent even attempting.

I know better than to get into context debates. They are unproductive. Besides, you are procrastinating with all these posts about context instead of just reading the passages.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

I know better than to get into context debates. They are unproductive. Besides, you are procrastinating with all these posts about context instead of just reading the passages.

Actually I am not procrastinating.

1. I have a life outside of CF
2. I read them multiple times
3. I will only do an indepth study if there is give and take

 

[GingerBeer]

I will only do an indepth study if there is give and take

Not for self edification?

 

[JacksBratt]

To "totally disagree" would mean to believe that people who have no encounter with God's means of grace will be saved by God through God's means of grace.

As for Romans 1:19-20, the natural knowledge of God's to serve as an incentive to spark a search for God. Paul doesn't suggest that the natural knowledge is a means of grace by which people might attain to salvation.

I think I explained what I "totally disagree" with. Don't put words in my mouth or try to twist what I have said....

 

[JacksBratt]

I used "you" there in the colloquial sense, as in "You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink."

It refers to anyone, not to some person in particular.

Regardless.... My post stands... as to my inquiry as to "why" would anyone want to.

 

[Ttalkkugjil]

I think I explained what I "totally disagree" with. Don't put words in my mouth or try to twist what I have said....

You said that you totally disagreed with what I had posted. I merely shared what total disagreement with what I posted would actually mean. It isn't my fault if you misspoke.

 

[Monk Brendan]

You completely avoided the issue

No, I didn't.

YOU were the one who made the accusations about "odd things not in the Bible," as if Protestants never had them, either.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

Not for self edification?

I plan to study it on my own but i was not expecting a one sided conversation.

 

[truefiction1]

If the kid is not guaranteed saved... what is all the pomp and ceremony and pressure and glaring eyes to those that don't?


How many infants are receiving communion? In the RCC do you not have to be "confirmed" to do this anyway.

Can someone please answer... what happens to an infant that is not baptized and dies?????????????????????????????

We're not Roman Catholic. Our infants receive Communion as soon as they're Baptized and Chrismated, which happens immediately following Baptism.

As for the pomp and ceremony, and pressure to those who don't, I can't answer because that is not anything I've ever experienced in the Orthodox Faith. Orthodox parents have their kids Baptized, Chrismated, and given Communion. I've never heard of any who didn't.

If a baby dies without receiving Baptism, God, we think, brings them to be with Him, as they are innocent of having committed any willful disobedience (sin). We don't believe in the doctrine of "original guilt" being transferred to all of Adam's descendants. What we inherit is a fallen and sinful condition for which we must receive healing, not guilt for which we must be punished in hell.

 

[truefiction1]

Is that biblical or contractual?

It's Biblical, and it's also for the care and for the protection of those who aren't of our fold.

 

[truefiction1]

It's a tradition that gives a false comfort to the parents...

I know many people, my age, that left the church...due to this.

One, in particular was my wife's ex husband. A priest came to his home when he was an infant and told the mother that she was sending her children to hell if she did not baptize them...

They never set foot in a church again... none of them.....

They didn't leave our Church. They left another institution that teaches an altogether different view of the Atonement and the reason for Baptism than we do.

None of the many infants who were murdered by Herod in his determination to destroy the Messiah right after His birth at Bethlehem had been Baptized. Our Church refers to all of these children as holy martyrs, and has honored them with the title "The Holy Innocents", even as we refer to all of those murdered by the act of abortion in our own day. We believe they are with God.

 

[JacksBratt]

To "totally disagree" would mean to believe that people who have no encounter with God's means of grace will be saved by God through God's means of grace.

As for Romans 1:19-20, the natural knowledge of God's to serve as an incentive to spark a search for God. Paul doesn't suggest that the natural knowledge is a means of grace by which people might attain to salvation.

What you said was:

"What I do feel it's logical to believe is that anyone who has no encounter with God's means of grace will not be saved by God through God's means of grace."

I totally disagree that "anyone" who has no encounter..... will not be saved..


I believe that there will be those that will be saved, without any knowledge of Christ. Whether it's due to living on an island or being to young or being too mentally handicapped.

Not all those who never hear of Christ will be damned.

So, your other claim I believe that

"people who have no encounter with God's means of grace will be saved by God through God's means of grace."

Is incorrect. It is not an absolute. God will judge them for what they knew and what they could be held accountable for.... since they cannot be saved by faith in something that they never had the luxury of being aware of....

You cannot make a choice if you are not aware that you have the option.

All will not be condemned in this case.. some will, some won't... BUT none of the condemned will be of those that have no mental capacity to be aware of their sin.

 

[Albion]

How many infants are receiving communion? In the RCC do you not have to be "confirmed" to do this anyway.

Can someone please answer... what happens to an infant that is not baptized and dies?????????????????????????????

Why bother? Whatever is explained will immediately be misrepresented, if past experience is any clue.

 

[Natsumi Lam]

We're not Roman Catholic. Our infants receive Communion as soon as they're Baptized and Chrismated, which happens immediately following Baptism.

As for the pomp and ceremony, and pressure to those who don't, I can't answer because that is not anything I've ever experienced in the Orthodox Faith. Orthodox parents have their kids Baptized, Chrismated, and given Communion. I've never heard of any who didn't.

If a baby dies without receiving Baptism, God, we think, brings them to be with Him, as they are innocent of having committed any willful disobedience (sin). We don't believe in the doctrine of "original guilt" being transferred to all of Adam's descendants. What we inherit is a fallen and sinful condition for which we must receive healing, not guilt for which we must be punished in hell.

Is we...orthodox?

 

[Natsumi Lam]

If the kid is not guaranteed saved... what is all the pomp and ceremony and pressure and glaring eyes to those that don't?


How many infants are receiving communion? In the RCC do you not have to be "confirmed" to do this anyway.

Can someone please answer... what happens to an infant that is not baptized and dies?????????????????????????????

How would anyone know?